What will break Stannis?

[Pod The Impaler]

if Jon is ... Azor Ahai as many suspect, Stannis is going to have to come to grips with the fact that he isn't, and that he's done some pretty fucked up things chasing a destiny that was never his, and he will likely watch Melisandre defect quickly to Jon's camp.

He will be left with nothing. A rebel Lord without lands, without a claim, and without a destiny.

Those things taken together would be enough to break him, I would think.

Yup. It will be his own morals that do it in the end. If he is not the rightful king of Westeros, the Ahor Azai, the whatever... then he is a kinslayer, and though his claim to Robert's succession may be rightful, it is also irrelevant next to the true crown and true king.

Seppuku anyone ?

[Ygrain]

I agree with this. People often see the word "bend" as something negative, like it only means submission. It doesn't. It also means that a person is able to compromise, which is something Stannis does at the end of Storm and personally, I think he should have done that much before and not seeing Robb as an enemy but a potential ally. And in fact, his inability to bend caused him to break and lose Blackwater.

If Stannis really wanted to be a King he needed to learn how to "bend" a little and listen others' advice, which he is doing now. He not always will win every argument just because he's the King. In fact, thinking he's absolutely right just because he wears the crown is a case for a bad King. I think it was Jon who say you can say a negotiation was good when both parts aren't entirely satisfied (or something along those lines), meaning, both parts need to bend a little.

Yes. Stannis does love his daughter even though he's not exactly a man who demonstrates publicly that love —as many other tough rough harsh men in Westeros, I suppose. But I don't find any evidence of Stannis being annoyed by Shireen in the same way he's annoyed by Selyse.

I know that many people hates HBO portrays of Stannis (I could partially include myself in that bunch) but episode 2 of this season, during that very awkward dinner scene, it was very clear that Selyse dislikes Shireen because she has something she can't get no matter how hard she tries: Stannis' affection and attention. And it's very funny how Selyse describes Shireen negatively as "stubborn, sullen and sinful", when this are actually the words mostly people would identify Stannis with. At least in show, Shireen is indeed his father's daughter, and there is nothing Selyse can do about that. That scene is also very symbolic of their relationship: Selyse offers him something to eat that Stannis doesn't like and she can't do better because it's the only she can get. Not even bringing Melisandre to them as gained any favour with Stannis.

Now, can we see any of these in the books? Well, Stannis is deeply annoyed by Selyse's religious fanaticism and as one of the re-read threads suggest, he left the annoying knights with Selyse while he went to the North. He does consider Shireen his heir, but barely talks about his wife. We know he doesn't love her, but apparently, he doesn't even bears a bit of sympathy towards her.

Selyse is as annoying as it gets, but Stannis' behaviour towards her still makes me want to kick him where it hurts.

Yup. It will be his own morals that do it in the end. If he is not the rightful king of Westeros, the Ahor Azai, the whatever... then he is a kinslayer, and though his claim to Robert's succession may be rightful, it is also irrelevant next to the true crown and true king.

Seppuku anyone ?

:thumbsup:

[Jankmaster]

Yup. It will be his own morals that do it in the end. If he is not the rightful king of Westeros, the Ahor Azai, the whatever... then he is a kinslayer, and though his claim to Robert's succession may be rightful, it is also irrelevant next to the true crown and true king.

Seppuku anyone ?

I thought Stannis on the whole is sort of apathetic about the whole azor ahai chosen hero thing? So not being the fire hero thingy won't bother him that much.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And if Jon is reborn, and is Azor Ahai as many suspect, Stannis is going to have to come to grips with the fact that he isn't, and that he's done some pretty fucked up things chasing a destiny that was never his, and he will likely watch Melisandre defect quickly to Jon's camp.

But is Stannis remotely interested on being AA? He only wants what he believe is his right: being a King.

As I see it, many people will likely follow Stannis because of the things he's doing now, not because there is some prophecy saying he's the One. And if indeed Jon is reborn as AA, he will likely support Stannis to get the throne after he has saved Winterfel from the Boltons, if that helps them to defeat the Others. Even if Jon is indeed son of Rhaegar, that won't make him immediately the King either. I don't see Jon trying to take the throne from Stannis: that's not Jon's fight in the books, at least so far.

[willofDorne]

Is that a serious question? Did you somehow miss her breakdown over Bran's fall, or losing her mind seeing Robb killed? She broke. Very understandably, very humanly, but break she did.

Yeah, she broke man, it's too bad she could't stop a Valyrian steel blade with her bare hands. That would have been something.

[ForgottenKnight]

Hard to tell as by all rights he should have lost and been eliminated by now. Yet he has endured and is making a comeback. I only see his complete and utter defeat in battle or the loss of his daughter as the things that could break him. He was pretty upset after the Blackwater and we saw him at his lowest. Since then he has refound his focus. Stannis will fight for his claim to the bitter end. Iron does not yield until it breaks.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, she broke man, it's too bad she could't stop a Valyrian steel blade with her bare hands. That would have been something.

You're kinda missing the point, by a long shot.

[jon rhaegar stark]

But is Stannis remotely interested on being AA? He only wants what he believe is his right: being a King.

As I see it, many people will likely follow Stannis because of the things he's doing now, not because there is some prophecy saying he's the One. And if indeed Jon is reborn as AA, he will likely support Stannis to get the throne after he has saved Winterfel from the Boltons, if that helps them to defeat the Others. Even if Jon is indeed son of Rhaegar, that won't make him immediately the King either. I don't see Jon trying to take the throne from Stannis: that's not Jon's fight in the books, at least so far.

will stannis see jon as a friend once he knows jon is rhaegar's son and AAr ...iam not sure about that

[Jankmaster]

I don't see him breaking in the end, he was close after Blackwater, but Davos Seaworth pulled through again. I think the only thing that might break him, like others have said, is Shireen dying, maybe along with a double dose of Davos death as well.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

will stannis see jon as a friend once he knows jon is rhaegar's son and AAr ...iam not sure about that

Depends on the time and context he finds out.

Jon has no army or support. And if they find out about this after they know about Aegon, then he really has no claim as he's a second son. The only danger Stannis could see is if Jon decides to join his "brother", but being part of the NW, he won't do such thing.

Besides, Jon's main concern is the Others, not claiming any throne.

[PirateVergo]

This is so unfair, Stannis is the only fucking king who try to save the realm meanwhile Dany is dreaming about Daario and Aegon is a kid who try to act like a King but both have more chance of becoming king than Stannis.

Fuck GRRM, why can't Stannis finally get what he deserves?

Hopefully he's not gonna get "Dracarys".

Besides, Jon's main concern is the Others, not claiming any throne.

Well according to half of this section Dany will defeat the others despite her main concern being taking the Iron Throne, but when it comes to others characters it doesn't work that way right?

[KINGpanther]

But is Stannis remotely interested on being AA? He only wants what he believe is his right: being a King.

As I see it, many people will likely follow Stannis because of the things he's doing now, not because there is some prophecy saying he's the One. And if indeed Jon is reborn as AA, he will likely support Stannis to get the throne after he has saved Winterfel from the Boltons, if that helps them to defeat the Others. Even if Jon is indeed son of Rhaegar, that won't make him immediately the King either. I don't see Jon trying to take the throne from Stannis: that's not Jon's fight in the books, at least so far.

Yeh Jon and Stannis have this mutual respect so even if the truth is revealed to Jon about R+L=J I can't see Jon betraying Stannis.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

I thought Stannis on the whole is sort of apathetic about the whole azor ahai chosen hero thing? So not being the fire hero thingy won't bother him that much.

Stannis is apathetic about the Red God, but he doesn't take much of an active role in that. He does take an active role in playing the role of AA. He wears the sword, and shows it as a sign of his power.

But is Stannis remotely interested on being AA? He only wants what he believe is his right: being a King.

As I see it, many people will likely follow Stannis because of the things he's doing now, not because there is some prophecy saying he's the One. And if indeed Jon is reborn as AA, he will likely support Stannis to get the throne after he has saved Winterfel from the Boltons, if that helps them to defeat the Others. Even if Jon is indeed son of Rhaegar, that won't make him immediately the King either. I don't see Jon trying to take the throne from Stannis: that's not Jon's fight in the books, at least so far.

Stannis is human. He's already bothered pretty badly by Renly's death:

“Only Renly could vex me with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother’s peach.”

If Jon is Azor Ahai, Stannis will likely abandoned by Melisandre. She'll want to be with the real Azor Ahai. That will sting. She was the one who connected Stannis to Azor Ahai. She was the one who convinced him of it. She was the one who convinced him to help conceive the shadow baby that killed his brother. It's all tied together. His identity hasn't been that he is just the rightful Heir to the Iron Throne. It's been that he's the rightful Heir to the Iron Throne, and a hero of prophecy. His personal sigil says as much to the world.

The Northmen are following him for what he's doing now. They're helping him because Jon broke his vow to take no part, and took part by telling him how to deal with the Norreys, Wulls, and Liddles, and advising Stannis not to offend their Gods. All the rest is dependent on Stannis finding a Stark. If Manderly gets Rickon, why would he bend the knee to Stannis in truth? He'd have in his possession the heir of the King in the North. I'm not convinced Lord Wyman is playing Davos square.

If Jon is reborn as AA, Jon will have to learn of his parentage. And Jon happens to be a guy who does his duty as well, and doesn't bend easily. I doubt he'd support Stannis, nor would the Northmen. Especially if Robb's will comes to light.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Depends on the time and context he finds out.

Jon has no army or support. And if they find out about this after they know about Aegon, then he really has no claim as he's a second son. The only danger Stannis could see is if Jon decides to join his "brother", but being part of the NW, he won't do such thing.

Besides, Jon's main concern is the Others, not claiming any throne.

i agree and jon's main concern is the others ...but what i fear is there might a chance like when the Queens men thought that jon wanted to marry Val and take winterfell when he refused those offers in the first place

i dont know whether they will betray each other...but the fear of jon's betrayal will always be in the mind of stannis after the reveal ...that may lead to some crazy things

[willofDorne]

Stannis is apathetic about the Red God, but he doesn't take much of an active role in that. He does take an active role in playing the role of AA. He wears the sword, and shows it as a sign of his power.

Stannis is human. He's already bothered pretty badly by Renly's death:

If Jon is Azor Ahai, Stannis will likely abandoned by Melisandre. She'll want to be with the real Azor Ahai. That will sting. She was the one who connected Stannis to Azor Ahai. She was the one who convinced him of it. She was the one who convinced him to conceive the shadow baby that killed his brother. It's all tied together. His identity hasn't been that he is just the rightful Heir to the Iron Throne. It's been that he's the rightful Heir to the Iron Throne, and a hero of prophecy. His personal sigil says as much to the world.

The Northmen are following him for what he's doing now. They're helping him because Jon broke his vow to take no part, and took part by telling him how to deal with the Norreys, Wulls, and Liddles, and advising Stannis not to offend their Gods.

If Jon is reborn as AA, Jon will have to learn of his parentage. And Jon happens to be a guy who does his duty as well, and doesn't bend easily. I doubt he'd support Stannis, nor would the Northmen. Especially if Robb's will comes to light.

Another crazy Azor Ahai prediction on the forums. Man, you guys need t-shirts.

[Nictarion]

Melisandre abandoning him would be my guess. She will figure out he's not AA and move on to the real one.

Without her and the queens men I expect his number will finally be up.

[Jankmaster]

Melisandre abandoning him would be my guess. She will figure out he's not AA and move on to the real one.

Without her and the queens men I expect his number will finally be up.

Don't the Kingsmen like Davos outnumber the Queen's men and Weren't most of Queens men left at the Wall? If they were a significant force you would think he would've brought them. Just a manpower question

Edit: hate autocorrect

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Another crazy Azor Ahai prediction on the forums. Man, you guys need t-shirts.

I'd gladly wear one.

Maybe I could get it personalized with my family name, arms, and a snazzy motto like- "Reading Comprehension".

[Nictarion]

Don't the Kingsmen like Davos outnumber the Queen's men and Weren't most of Queens men left at the Wall? If they were a significant force you would think he would've brought them. Just a manpower question

Edit: hate autocorrect

I know Stannis had some queens men with him after leaving the Wall. They were present when he burned the Peasbury men.

Also I would think the Florents make up a a large part of Stannis' forces. And they are queens men.

[Jankmaster]

I know Stannis had some queens men with him after leaving the Wall. They were present when he burned the Peasbury men.

Also I would think the Florents make up a a large part of Stannis' forces. And they are queens men.

Point taken, but I think most of Stannis' strength is now drawn from what few kingsmen he has left, the current Mormonts, Glovers, NMCs, and Umbers. Wasn't most of House Florent's strength with that florent who ordered his fleet extra crispy? Anyway. I just think losing the Florents wouldn't be that big a loss, also they don't really have anyone else to go to. Aside from Selsye they seem to be motivated more by politics than faith.