What will break Stannis?

[James Arryn]

I must be getting the word wrong. How is plotting to replace Cersei in Robert's bed standing up to Cersei? And, can you point me how Renly's presence was actually of use to Robert? Or where is his campaign praised? And what is it praised for?

He didn't just plot to replace Cersei, though that itself was a better plan than anything anyone else came up with. He openly mocked Joff's character when everyone else was touching forelocks and Cersei herself called him an open enemy. He also was the man who warned Ned of what a danger the Lannisters were, and suggested taking possession of the royal children to secure the Regency/curtail Cersei's power...and, again, offered to lead 50 men against the Crown/KG/Lannisters.

How is that not standing up to her?

Renly's presence would have been of use if either Robert or Ned had listened to his advice, to begin with. In that Robert died, no one was ultimately 'of use', but he tried to be and his solutions are in hindsight better than anything anyone else offered. He also did his duty on the Council, which some stronger men failed to do by virtue of manly sulkage.

His campaign was praised by Tyrion, LF and I believe Tywin. It was praised for it's intelligence and strategic vision, in gathering strength while others diminished theirs against one another, and in retaining control and strategic initiative. It was praised by Stannis, among others, because it was winning.

[Ygrain]

That's changing the element he was in. ''out of use'' implies he was in so many battles he became unable to do it anymore, which was not the case. Plus, given that Robert never recovered his greatness, he doesn't fit the definition in any way I can see post RR. Sorry, but I just completely fail to see how one can look at a fat, drunk, irresponsible wife-beater (I actually kinda like Robert but that's what he was) and think ''yeah, that guy represents the True Steel!''.

No spine? He did suggest a daring course of action to Ned and then went in open war against the Crown, the one that has such wonderful and forgiving fellows as Tywin Lannister behind it. He might not be suicidally brave like Loras , but in no way did I ever see anything to indicate Renly lacked a spine.

Then forgive my phrasing, I meant not used for a long time. And, when was the last time that Noye saw Robert? I don't remember.

Ambition =/= spine, that's one thing. Also, I fail to see what exactly was so daring about the plan to seize Joffrey while everyone is asleep, especially if the primary goal is to protect his own neck.

[Ygrain]

He didn't just plot to replace Cersei, though that itself was a better plan than anything anyone else came up with. He openly mocked Joff's character when everyone else was touching forelocks and Cersei herself called him an open enemy. He also was the man who warned Ned of what a danger the Lannisters were, and suggested taking possession of the royal children to secure the Regency/curtail Cersei's power...and, again, offered to lead 50 men against the Crown/KG/Lannisters.

How is that not standing up to her?

Renly's presence would have been of use if either Robert or Ned had listened to his advice, to begin with. In that Robert died, no one was ultimately 'of use', but he tried to be and his solutions are in hindsight better than anything anyone else offered. He also did his duty on the Council, which some stronger men failed to do by virtue of manly sulkage.

His campaign was praised by Tyrion, LF and I believe Tywin. It was praised for it's intelligence and strategic vision, in gathering strength while others diminished theirs against one another, and in retaining control and strategic initiative.

Could you provide the quotes?

[James Arryn]

Ambition =/= spine, that's one thing. Also, I fail to see what exactly was so daring about the plan to seize Joffrey while everyone is asleep, especially if the primary goal is to protect his own neck.

Well, his first 2 offers actually secured power for others, not himself. So not really ambition. Survival was part of it, sure. I'm curious, who in the books has shown spine then? Almost everyone has acted with at least some degree of concern for either power or survival, most of whom aren't considered spineless.

As for the RK, it was absolutely a daring plan. The Lannisters had many times the greater number, including the KG, and their leaders were not exactly known for their leniency. But, again, what's your criteria for daring, then? Going up against superior numbers in a plan which, if it fails, means your certain death...and could even mean that if it succeeds...what else is that? Going at night was simply the only factor they had which gave it a chance. Ned's plan was less daring, had (he thought) a much greater numerical advantage and was still something he considered dangerous.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle.

We know what broke Cat; can we conclude that sooner or later, Stannis will reach his breaking point, as well? What would it be, though? Cat's weakness, her family, was revealed early on, but what weaknesses does Stannis have? He doesn't show affection for anyone, he wants the throne and wants it badly, to the point of compromising his principles by using Melisandre's dark arts. Is this what will be his undoing? Dany's vision of a king casting no shadow seems to hint that his involvement in producing shadow babies is somehow a defining feature of his, but I don't see how it is going to break him.

Eh I always found the metal thing over done. When ever somebody says something in this book its probably wrong when describing characters. Aemon thinks Dany is the last hero, Mel thinks her visions are something else entirely, Stannis calling Rhaenyra a traitor when she was the rightful heir, People calling Barristan honorable, Varys calling F aegon a wise king, and so forth. Everything that is said about characters should be taken with a grain of salt and their actions should be looked at instead.

[James Arryn]

Could you provide the quotes?

Not readily. Since I updated my IOS, kindle won't let me access my GRRM collection, citing some licence issue I don't understand. I need to call Amazon, but haven't found the time yet. I can offer leaders:

Renly's mocking Joff are at the Trident. His comments to Ned are in Ned's chapter with Robert in bed post-boar and LF's approval of his plan somewhat later.

Tyrion's comment is in his chapter of that time, either the one where he and Cersei share wine or one close to it. Varys (I forgot his earlier) praises it around the same time, I think also in a Tyrion chapter. Others have quoted them before, so shouldn't be hard to find. Tywin or LF praise Renly's campaign and subordinate commanders in a Tyrion POV. Stannis' quotes include the one in DS, something like 'my brother (Renly) is young and strong and has gathered the power if the reach and SL around him ' or similar.

[tydides]

The northern people are different than other people, and especially in Catelyn's chapters, appear more mature than their southern counterparts, playing games. I think that Stannis, while not up to par with idiot southerners like the Tyrells, is still in their category. When winter truly comes and the Wall falls, Stannis will break. He is a southern lord in northern lands, and if any of GRRM foreshadowing is correct, then he is doomed when night descends on westeros.

[Doorlocks]

I think Noye's quote is another instance of characters using military prowess to judge others as people in general, and this attitude being completely wrongheaded. This, to me, is one of the main themes of the series. Again and again we're told and shown that being a good warrior, or even a good military leader, doesn't make a good king/queen. Robert is the most prominent example, but it's also toyed with in regards to Dany, Jon, Ned, Aegon VI, and other Targaryens. One instance in particular comes to mind from the third "Dunk and Egg" story. A character who fought for the Blackfyres is comparing Daemon Blackfyre to Daeron Targaryen, saying that Daemon was the "better man" basically because he was a better warrior. But Daeron II is almost universally considered a great man and a great king, earning the appelation "The Good" and being the one who finally unified the seven kingdoms.

Back to Noye... his quote is basically true, if the only thing you're looking at is military ability. Robert was clearly the best warrior in the family, and one of the best in the world. Stannis is a good warrior and general, but lacks the pure strength and charisma of Robert. Renly, as far as we know, had little to no military inclination or ability. But, the story tells us again and again, military might matters little when it comes to ability to rule or even quality of person in general. In that light, the descriptions of the brothers probably becomes reversed.

Robert, while a force of nature on the battlefield and charismatic, is weak-willed, easily-manipulated, and hot-headed off the battlefield. Although he initially looked the role of a great hero, ultimately his potential wasted away and amounted to little. He is the copper.

Renly, while not a warrior, is a better political player than either of his brothers. He had the foresight and strength of will to make some major moves both before Robert's death and after. He could have been a good king, I think, but he ultimately got killed because he reached a little too far beyond his capabilities and refused to back down. Iron.

Stannis, of the three, is definitely the pure steel so far. He's shown strength, adaptibility, and perseverence. Not that I put too much stock into the metallurgy metaphor of course. Ultimately all three Baratheon brothers, maybe even the House in general, might turn out to be copper or iron, amounting to little.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I think Noye's quote is another instance of characters using military prowess to judge others as people in general, and this attitude being completely wrongheaded. This, to me, is one of the main themes of the series. Again and again we're told and shown that being a good warrior, or even a good military leader, doesn't make a good king/queen. Robert is the most prominent example, but it's also toyed with in regards to Dany, Jon, Ned, Aegon VI, and other Targaryens. One instance in particular comes to mind from the third "Dunk and Egg" story. A character who fought for the Blackfyres is comparing Daemon Blackfyre to Daeron Targaryen, saying that Daemon was the "better man" basically because he was a better warrior. But Daeron II is almost universally considered a great man and a great king, earning the appelation "The Good" and being the one who finally unified the seven kingdoms.

Back to Noye... his quote is basically true, if the only thing you're looking at is military ability. Robert was clearly the best warrior in the family, and one of the best in the world. Stannis is a good warrior and general, but lacks the pure strength and charisma of Robert. Renly, as far as we know, had little to no military inclination or ability. But, the story tells us again and again, military might matters little when it comes to ability to rule or even quality of person in general. In that light, the descriptions of the brothers probably becomes reversed.

Robert, while a force of nature on the battlefield and charismatic, is weak-willed, easily-manipulated, and hot-headed off the battlefield. Although he initially looked the role of a great hero, ultimately his potential wasted away and amounted to little. He is the copper.

Renly, while not a warrior, is a better political player than either of his brothers. He had the foresight and strength of will to make some major moves both before Robert's death and after. He could have been a good king, I think, but he ultimately got killed because he reached a little too far beyond his capabilities and refused to back down. Iron.

Stannis, of the three, is definitely the pure steel so far. He's shown strength, adaptibility, and perseverence. Not that I put too much stock into the metallurgy metaphor of course. Ultimately all three Baratheon brothers, maybe even the House in general, might turn out to be copper or iron, amounting to little.

I disagree with the bottom of this. The baratheons have never lost a war. The targs have lost 4 wars ( the Dance is a loss no matter what) RR and the two wars with dorne. They hardly beat the faith for that matter. The baratheons might not be the most likable house but have been a force to reckon with since the Aegon days.

The rest is an admirable reduction of the brothers and what they actually are.

[willofDorne]

I think Noye's quote is another instance of characters using military prowess to judge others as people in general, and this attitude being completely wrongheaded. This, to me, is one of the main themes of the series. Again and again we're told and shown that being a good warrior, or even a good military leader, doesn't make a good king/queen. Robert is the most prominent example, but it's also toyed with in regards to Dany, Jon, Ned, Aegon VI, and other Targaryens. One instance in particular comes to mind from the third "Dunk and Egg" story. A character who fought for the Blackfyres is comparing Daemon Blackfyre to Daeron Targaryen, saying that Daemon was the "better man" basically because he was a better warrior. But Daeron II is almost universally considered a great man and a great king, earning the appelation "The Good" and being the one who finally unified the seven kingdoms.

Back to Noye... his quote is basically true, if the only thing you're looking at is military ability. Robert was clearly the best warrior in the family, and one of the best in the world. Stannis is a good warrior and general, but lacks the pure strength and charisma of Robert. Renly, as far as we know, had little to no military inclination or ability. But, the story tells us again and again, military might matters little when it comes to ability to rule or even quality of person in general. In that light, the descriptions of the brothers probably becomes reversed.

Robert, while a force of nature on the battlefield and charismatic, is weak-willed, easily-manipulated, and hot-headed off the battlefield. Although he initially looked the role of a great hero, ultimately his potential wasted away and amounted to little. He is the copper.

Renly, while not a warrior, is a better political player than either of his brothers. He had the foresight and strength of will to make some major moves both before Robert's death and after. He could have been a good king, I think, but he ultimately got killed because he reached a little too far beyond his capabilities and refused to back down. Iron.

Stannis, of the three, is definitely the pure steel so far. He's shown strength, adaptibility, and perseverence. Not that I put too much stock into the metallurgy metaphor of course. Ultimately all three Baratheon brothers, maybe even the House in general, might turn out to be copper or iron, amounting to little.

This is probably more true. Except Renly was killed by a shadow baby, which was more or less just an act of horror.

[Doorlocks]

This is probably more true. Except Renly was killed by a shadow baby, which was more or less just an act of horror.

Yeah, I basically agree. Besides Robert being pretty obviously copper/fool's gold, the other two were kind of a stretch since I don't really like the metallurgy metaphor. However, Renly's claim ultimately was the least valid and most driven by pure ambition. Joff and the Lannisters were trying to hold on to what they already had, Stannis is the legitimate heir, and Robb and Balon were basically only seeking independence (with a revenge quest mixed in for Robb). Renly reached a little beyond his capablities or place, when supporting Stannis would have been beneficial to both of them and their House in general.

I disagree with the bottom of this. The baratheons have never lost a war. The targs have lost 4 wars ( the Dance is a loss no matter what) RR and the two wars with dorne. They hardly beat the faith for that matter. The baratheons might not be the most likable house but have been a force to reckon with since the Aegon days.

The rest is an admirable reduction of the brothers and what they actually are.

I just meant from the perspective of history, and it's only the worst case scenario. They're the youngest Great House, essentially a cadet branch to the Targaryens, and they're nearly extinct. With it looking fairly certain that the illegitimate status of Cersei's children will be revealed officially, all that is left is Stannis and Shireen. Neither of them are guaranteed to survive through the series. If the worst were to happen and the House went extinct, their historical presence would amount to being a very short-lived House that had a roughly twenty year period at the top.

[Bryden Tully]

Joff and the Lannisters were trying to hold on to what they already had, Stannis is the legitimate heir, and Robb and Balon were basically only seeking independence (with a revenge quest mixed in for Robb). Renly reached a little beyond his capablities or place, when supporting Stannis would have been beneficial to both of them and their House in general.

Stannis claimed his was the legiitmate heir-no-one in the realm really believed him.

The best thing for House Baratheon would of been for Stannis to ride into Battle and get killed, allowling Renly and his 100,000 strong host to march on KG, kill Joff, Cersei and Tyrion, send Tommen to the Watch and marry Myrcella to Edric Storm.

[George48]

death

I don't think that would be enough

[Doorlocks]

Stannis claimed his was the legiitmate heir-no-one in the realm really believed him.

The best thing for House Baratheon would of been for Stannis to ride into Battle and get killed, allowling Renly and his 100,000 strong host to march on KG, kill Joff, Cersei and Tyrion, send Tommen to the Watch and marry Myrcella to Edric Storm.

I'm not talking about what people thought, I'm talking about what's true. Stannis knew he was the heir, Renly just decided he wanted to be king.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

Patchface.

[Batbob45]

any thing horrible happen to Shireen will break Stannis

any thing happen to Selyse not so much

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Nothing will break him. But I'm starting to believe the theory of him sacrificing himself (instead of Shireen) to bring Jon back. And that's the meaning of his vision where a crown of fire consumes him.

[Stannis's birthright]

Please.. Stannis will not break nor will join with the Others .. But Sadly his time will come . He will choose his way to go out and it won't be on his knees