Blackfish Tully Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Robb was dead, and yet Brynden refused to surrender Jeyne Westerling, the person he had sworn to protect to Robb, his queen. And he only surrendered, after Edmure somehow suddenly convinced him, after Edmure had been talking with Tom Sevenstrings. When Ryman threatened to hang Edmure, Brynden still refused to surrender RR and Jeyne Westerling. Edmure is the closest family he has left. And yet, he takes his oath to Robb and the protection of the wife of a dead king OVER the life of his nephew. Brynden is smart enough to know that whether or not he surrenders castle has no bearing on whether or not the Freys kill Edmure or not . There is no way he would trust the Freys to keep their word . Edmure was a dead man either way and Blackfish surrendering the castle would not have saved him . The only thing that saved Edmure was Jaimie coming along and that changed the whole dynamic of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That's not exactly true . Robb had made Brynden Tully the Warden of the Southern Marches so he was in charge of everything South of the Neck in Robb's Kingdom so Edmure would be under Brynden authority Warden seems to be a military title. When Jaime is appointed Warden of the East he does not seem to directly rule the Vale. Riverrun is Edmures, he would have authority there. Jaime says as much. It makes more sense that Edmure, the man who has been the heir all his life and has been ruling Riverrun since his father was ill and became Lord after his passing would be the one the people of the Riverlands respond to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Brynden is smart enough to know that whether or not he surrenders castle has no bearing on whether or not the Freys kill Edmure or not . There is no way he would trust the Freys to keep their word . Edmure was a dead man either way and Blackfish surrendering the castle would not have saved him . The only thing that saved Edmure was Jaimie coming along and that changed the whole dynamic of the situation. It seems a fair point, but Brynden still refuses after parlaying with Jaime. So, it isn't Jaime's presence that causes the Blackfish to relent. It's whatever Edmure and him talked about, and plan they concocted. I doubt he cared about any of Jaime's threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Warden seems to be a military title. When Jaime is appointed Warden of the East he does not seem to directly rule the Vale. Riverrun is Edmures, he would have authority there. Jaime says as much. It makes more sense that Edmure, the man who has been the heir all his life and has been ruling Riverrun since his father was ill and became Lord after his passing would be the one the people of the Riverlands respond to. Why would Jaimie have any idea about how the dynamics of Robb's kingdom works , what he says means nothing , he's just trying to get Edmure to surrender the castle and will say anything to do it . And military titles override civilian titles in times of war . What kind of sense would it make if Brynden is in charge of the Southern Marches but he cannot make decisions in the castles that are in the Southerm marches ? Ignore Jaimie's Warden of the East title that is apples and oranges to this discussion. Robb is Edmure's king and he puts Brynden in charge of the Southern Marches , it's pretty clear who is in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 It seems a fair point, but Brynden still refuses after parlaying with Jaime. So, it isn't Jaime's presence that causes the Blackfish to relent. It's whatever Edmure and him talked about, and plan they concocted. I doubt he cared about any of Jaime's threats. But it is his presence that creates the situation where Brynden can get with Edmure and come up with a plan so they can surrender the castle . If Jaimie does not show up then it does not matter if Brynden surrenders the castle or not Edmure is a dead man either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Riverrun is Edmures, he would have authority there. Jaime says as much. It makes more sense that Edmure, the man who has been the heir all his life and has been ruling Riverrun since his father was ill and became Lord after his passing would be the one the people of the Riverlands respond to. Riverrun is Edmure's but when Robb was there he made the decisions not Edmure so why would that be different when Brynden who Robb put in charge of the Riverlands is there? As for the people in Riverrun i'm inclined to believe that they are going to go with the respected soldier who has 40 years experience with warfare over his inexperienced nephew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain howdy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I honestly can not understand how so many of you can just defend cat tooth and nail. Even when people make good points against her. Then we just have to put up with smart ass answers that proove nothing other than you have got nothing. Shes a horrid petty spiteful bitch i hope she dies. dies horribly and stays dead this time give the bitch to ramsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 But it is his presence that creates the situation where Brynden can get with Edmure and come up with a plan so they can surrender the castle . If Jaimie does not show up then it does not matter if Brynden surrenders the castle or not Edmure is a dead man either way. It's mostly the fact they got to speak and there's obviously some plan, and I doubt Edmure came up with it on his own. Tom gave Edmure some message or idea or knowledge, and if necessary possibly through a song, and Tom is often one who seems to make up songs on the spot. Granted - Ryman was just plain stupid and useless, and no match at all for Brynden. The Blackfish had no reason to surrender, if he operates believing himself to be one of Robb's commanders (dead or not). He had plenty of food and Robb's queen there. And at least he'd get to kill some Freys storming RR. And if Ryman had killed Edmure, he'd lose his bargaining chip. Hostages are only interesting as long as they're alive. And while Jaime's presence is the reason why Edmure and Blackfish talk at all, it's not Jaime's threats about Edmure's life, the storming of RR or throwing Edmure's child with a trebuchet over the walls. Everything seems to point to the Blackfish operating as one still loyal to Robb, though he's dead; not as Edmure's uncle, or whatever the Lannisters or Freys believe the political situation to be. His escape only adds to the idea that he still does not recognize the Lannisters or Freys as any sort of authority over him. And I don't think it's even RR that's Brynden's major priority. It's his oath to Robb about Jeyne Westerling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Everything seems to point to the Blackfish operating as one still loyal to Robb, though he's dead; not as Edmure's uncle, or whatever the Lannisters or Freys believe the political situation to be. His escape only adds to the idea that he still does not recognize the Lannisters or Freys as any sort of authority over him. And I don't think it's even RR that's Brynden's major priority. It's his oath to Robb about Jeyne Westerling. I believe you are 100% correct on this , Robb named Brynden Tully his Warden of the Southern Marches and everything Brynden has done and will do will be as the Warden of the Southern Marches. It's not in Brynden's nature to give up and he will fight until the bitter end and then some . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Sweetsunray@ Lord Wraith@ & King Ned Stark@ I have absolutely nothing to add to you speculations, but am thoroughly enjoying the story you are creating...I'm so on board with it.: B): I like Lost Melnibonean@ adding Nymeria & her wolves in the rescue also. :) :cheers: Everything seems to point to the Blackfish operating as one still loyal to Robb, though he's dead; not as Edmure's uncle, or whatever the Lannisters or Freys believe the political situation to be. His escape only adds to the idea that he still does not recognize the Lannisters or Freys as any sort of authority over him. And I don't think it's even RR that's Brynden's major priority. It's his oath to Robb about Jeyne Westerling. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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