Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish

[Ygrain]

Wow. :bang: Sometimes I really think I missed a book where Catelyn burned down Winterfell.

And blamed it on poor Ramsay and Theon. Also, she dared to stay with her dying father instead of going to Rickon.

[David Selig]

Now I know what website I'm never going to. *harumph*

There are some hilarious discussions about Catelyn there though. "Catelyn Stark on trial" (for being an unfit mother) is just priceless stuff, I have rarely laughed so much.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In Falia's defense, the Hewetts had it coming. There's no reason for her to love them.

Come on now!! Where did I justify rape and sexual abuse? Falia being raised as a servant at Lord Hewett's castle won't make her in any way empathetic or friendly with him and his legitimate family.

It's not about revenge here. Falia just doesn't care.

The treatment of bastards in Westeros is then cyclic.

They're treacherous because they're mistreated.

They're mistreated because they're supposed to be treacherous.

There are bastards who learn to be loyal to their families, despite them not inheriting anything. And some do get something, like some lands and minor marriages.

The problem with Cat is that aGoT, our first impression, is a very different books than the others following. In aGoT we have her account of what is having to have a bastard and what is the procedure about it: raising them away from the family. In the next books we then meet bastards whose families keep them well and among the other children. So, Cat's thoughts sound biased against Jon.

[OldGimletEye]

But, there's plenty of evidence for her being at heart, a kind and compassionate person. Wanting to bury Tyrion's servant (Tyrion doesn't spare him a thought); tipping sailors personally, so they don't get cheated; trying to make peace, and forego vengeance, so that other women don't have to endure the same bereavement she did; her sympathy for Cersei, who she has every reason to hate; risking execution, to save her daughters by releasing Jaime.

This. I think, overall, Cat is a good person. I find her attitude towards John to be annoying, but it hardly makes her the worst person in Westeros. I would add that there are other characters that I like that have done something that has got on my nerves. Cat isn't perfect, but she isn't awful either.

[David Selig]

The problem with Cat is that aGoT, our first impression, is a very different books than the others following. In aGoT we have her account of what is having to have a bastard and what is the procedure about it: raising them away from the family. In the next books we then meet bastards whose families keep them well and among the other children. So, Cat's thoughts sound biased against Jon.

Like who? Walder Frey? I can't think of anyone else.

[Ingelheim]

Like who? Walder Frey? I can't think of anyone else.

Sand Snakes, Joy Hill, Edric Storm, Walder Rivers...those are the bastards I can remember

[David Selig]

Sand Snakes, Joy Hill, Edric Storm, Walder Rivers...those are the bastards I can remember

Oberyn was not married, neither was Gerion, Edric Storm lived 300 miles away from his father.

[the trees have eyes]

Oberyn was not married, neither was Gerion, Edric Storm lived 300 miles away from his father.

Plus Cersei threatened to kill any bastard Robert brought to Court. Now Cersei is not the norm but she clearly would have felt the insult and reacted far more than Catelyn did.

Raising a bastard alongside your trueborn children is a huge insult to your wife's family, it says a Tully is no better than a Snow.

That's why Edric is kept at Storm's End not in King's Landing or why Larence Snow is raised at Torrhen's Square not by Lord Hornwood.

[Alia Atreides]

ahh Catelyn gets so so much hate regarding her dislike of Jon and its for me one of the things I didn't like about her myself; even in the pain that only a Mother can feel for her child's pain it was wrong to tell Jon it should of been him that had been thrown out the window instead of Bran; but on the flip of that coin, here in front of her day after day is proof her Lord Husband was unfaithful to her with his very presence.

As for the Blackfish I contend with the general consensus here; he knows the Lannister's orchestrated the Red Wedding perhaps he does not have actual proof but the Lannisters not punishing such treachery speaks volumes that no validity of proof ever will give to any Stark, Tully or Northman.

I think he lied to Jamie regarding the trust issue and we do not know where he escaped to yet... that will bring what he believes or disbelieves full circle regarding Jon.

But please continue with the "Trail of the Venomous Catelyn Stark" I find it entertaining ;).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oberyn was not married, neither was Gerion, Edric Storm lived 300 miles away from his father.

They still existed. Jon lived many miles away from the Tullys and there is Brynden's opinion of him. Gerion's bastard lived with the Lannisters and they definitely don't have the girl as a servant like the Hewetts had Falia. Doesn't look like the rest of the family has a bad opinion about her either.

We have also Aurane Waters. Cersei thinks of him as treacherous but he has betrayed HER, not his family. As far as we know, maybe he's doing everything according to his own brother's will and they are planning to join someone else, either Stannis or Aegon. Of course, we don't know if he ever lived with his father's family and wife, or apart. There is also Ronald Storm who takes the side of his father, not his captives, like Falia did. Maybe it was because he wasn't bad treated in any way. I won't even mention the Sand Snakes because Dorne is an special case, but there is the proof that you can raise your bastards to be extremely loyal to you if you love them the same as your own children.

The difference with all of these people and Jon is that we have both Jon and Cat's povs. We don't know what lady Velaryon thought of Aurane, for instance, maybe he thought about him the same Cat thought, and we can't blame neither.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I find the pass so many give her to be just as annoying. Maybe the way she felt could be understandable at first...but over the years she should have mellowed! But , no she has to be a bitch even after she thinks 3 of her children are dead, & agrees that the forth shouldn't be heir.

[Mladen]

I am new to the forums, I am scared to even ask this, but i am really curious:

Why is there so much hate?

So much hate? I don't think so. Jon's hate is om the level of statistical error. It basically doesn't exist. And that post is poor reaction to poor choice of words regarding Catelyn

[LordBloodraven]

So much hate? I don't think so. Jon's hate is om the level of statistical error. It basically doesn't exist. And that post is poor reaction to poor choice of words regarding Catelyn

Jon hate exists very well, I fear. Perhaps, not as much as Catelyn's but still here. It's a kind of condescending hate, if that makes sense

[Julia Martell]

Poor Catelyn. People pick apart every piece of advice she's ever given anyone like she was suppose to be able to see the future.

He attitude towards Jon was unfair, but it is understandable. She's not perfect. Her advice to not trust Jon to be loyal to Robb seems bad to us, but we know him better than she does. It would hardly be the first time legitimizing a bastard turned out to be a huge mistake.

And I don't get the idea that Robb dismissed it out of hand either. He considered it and decided she was wrong. She was giving him honest council, that's all.

And what reason does the Blackfish have to trust Jon? He doesn't trust Sansa either, you notice, and I doubt Cat said bad things about her.

[Fat Mac]

Poor Catelyn. People pick apart every piece of advice she's ever given anyone like she was suppose to be able to see the future.

He attitude towards Jon was unfair, but it is understandable. She's not perfect. Her advice to not trust Jon to be loyal to Robb seems bad to us, but we know him better than she does. It would hardly be the first time legitimizing a bastard turned out to be a huge mistake.

And I don't get the idea that Robb dismissed it out of hand either. He considered it and decided she was wrong. She was giving him honest council, that's all.

And what reason does the Blackfish have to trust Jon? He doesn't trust Sansa either, you notice, and I doubt Cat said bad things about her.

I don't recall where this is said. Do you have a quote?

[Julia Martell]

I think I was confusing him with someone else on that point. Who called her "Lady Lannister" and said Robb can't let her inherit. Was that the Great Jon?

[Mladen]

Jon hate exists very well, I fear. Perhaps, not as much as Catelyn's but still here. It's a kind of condescending hate, if that makes sense

Well, beside some random posts, I am afraid that I don't kbow what you talk about. It's one of those rare things I don't see much hatred, if any at all.

[Fat Mac]

I think I was confusing him with someone else on that point. Who called her "Lady Lannister" and said Robb can't let her inherit. Was that the Great Jon?

Ah, ok.

Let's also not forget people that the Blackfish is extremely bitter to begin with.

[mormont]

They still existed. Jon lived many miles away from the Tullys and there is Brynden's opinion of him. Gerion's bastard lived with the Lannisters and they definitely don't have the girl as a servant like the Hewetts had Falia. Doesn't look like the rest of the family has a bad opinion about her either.

But still, we know exactly nothing about where she lived, let alone how she was treated. Given all of the evidence we have - Tywin's views on social position, and of course Cersei's contempt for Cat's tolerance of the way Jon was brought up at Winterfell - it seems extremely likely that although Joy was taken care of, she was not brought up in any way that stands comparison with how Jon was brought up. And it's the way Jon was brought up that is the issue, to Cat: she fears - rightly, as it happens! - that bringing him up so closely with the legitimate siblings blurs the usual social lines and could lead to him wanting to inherit.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But still, we know exactly nothing about where she lived, let alone how she was treated. Given all of the evidence we have - Tywin's views on social position, and of course Cersei's contempt for Cat's tolerance of the way Jon was brought up at Winterfell - it seems extremely likely that although Joy was taken care of, she was not brought up in any way that stands comparison with how Jon was brought up. And it's the way Jon was brought up that is the issue, to Cat: she fears - rightly, as it happens! - that bringing him up so closely with the legitimate siblings blurs the usual social lines and could lead to him wanting to inherit.

IICR, Jaime calls her a lovely girl (or something similar). But then, Benjen also seemed to love Jon as his nephew. Indeed, if Gerion had been married, then the wife wouldn't call her by nice names, I suppose. Yet, she's not a servant like Falia Flowers was, because they're thinking on marrying her to Sybell's son, and Jaime thinks she's the one getting the worst part.