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A Secret Targaryen Besides (you know who)? Who would it be?


KingMaekarWasHere

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No this is bullshit.

Why the fuck would Ned give his nephew to Varys and illiryo wtf.

And don't tell me he wasn't there when Ned come to the ToJ, the KG was protecting the child not Lyanna

Ned thinks that he can no longer live with lies. Lies=plural. So except the parentage of Jon, who is not his child and has to lie about that, there must be another lie. Also R+L=J doesn't explain Ashara Dayne.

R+L=A explains both of these things.

Also it is my assumption that Lyanna made Ned promise to not tell anyone about the baby. He couldn't tell Ned to raise Aegon because Aegon has obvious Targaryen looks, so he couldn't keep that a secret, so the baby had to be given up to someone Lyanna trusted that could take him to the free cities and raise them. Maybe she didn't even tell him where the baby was going, they just gave it to someone who was there and he/she took him to Illyrio. Could be a handmaiden of Lyanna for example, or Rhaegar could have pre-arranged something like that.

I can elaborate on this more but it seems more reasonable to me that Jon = Brandon+Ashara and Aegon =Rhaegar+Lyanna

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16, I believe is what Maggy the frog told Cersei

Yes but Cersei had some of the killed--the baby named Barra in KL and a set of twins in Lannisport at least. The ones who are still alive and whose names we know are Mya Stone, Gendry, Bella, and Edric Storm.

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Also R+L=J doesn't explain Ashara Dayne.

What are you talking about? Ashara Dayne had a stillborn daughter with Brandon, then she killed herself when she heard about her brother's death unless you believe Septa Lemore is Ashara which is far from obvious.

Jon = Brandon+Ashara

No that's impossible Jon would be much older if he was Brandon's son he was still a newborn baby when Eddard came back to winterfell with him.

Brandon died too early to be Jon's father.

And I won't even talk about the evidences of R+L=J like D&D saying they guessed Jon's mother right or the blue flower on the wall.

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What are you talking about? Ashara Dayne had a stillborn daughter with Brandon, then she killed herself when she heard about her brother's death unless you believe Septa Lemore is Ashara which is far from obvious.

No that's impossible Jon would be much older if he was Brandon's son he was still a newborn baby when Eddard came back to winterfell with him.

Brandon died too early to be Jon's father.

And I won't even talk about the evidences of R+L=J like D&D saying they guessed Jon's mother right or the blue flower on the wall.

Huh? I thought Ashara was with the Quiet Wolf, ie Ned. Check your facts buddy.
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She danced with Ned and that's it, she had a stillborn daughter with a Stark according to Barristan Selmy and he seem to think it's Brandon and not Ned

Barristan does not say that a Stark was the father of the child. He says she "turned to Stark" but he doesn't say which one or whether this was before or after she was dishonored at Harrenhal.

Barristan seems to think that her suicide was not too long after the stillbirth of her child. If that's correct then she did not get pregnant at Harrenhal but sometime during the rebellion.

Huh? I thought Ashara was with the Quiet Wolf, ie Ned. Check your facts buddy.

If Jon was Brandon's son (by any woman) he would have to be older than he is by about a year because Brandon died before the rebellion began, and Jon was born near the end of it. Unless Jon's age has been misreported, Brandon died before Jon was conceived.

Ashara danced with several guys at Harrenhal. Yes Ned was one of them, but he was too shy to ask her and had to have Brandon do it for him. Some people think Brandon is the one who dishonored Ashara. Dancing with doesn't mean sleeping with.

For Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, they would have to have met up somewhere during the war.

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Barristan does not say that a Stark was the father of the child. He says she "turned to Stark" but he doesn't say which one or whether this was before or after she was dishonored at Harrenhal.

Barristan seems to think that her suicide was not too long after the stillbirth of her child. If that's correct then she did not get pregnant at Harrenhal but sometime during the rebellion.

If Jon was Brandon's son (by any woman) he would have to be older than he is by about a year because Brandon died before the rebellion began, and Jon was born near the end of it. Unless Jon's age has been misreported, Brandon died before Jon was conceived.

Ashara danced with several guys at Harrenhal. Yes Ned was one of them, but he was too shy to ask her and had to have Brandon do it for him. Some people think Brandon is the one who dishonored Ashara. Dancing with doesn't mean sleeping with.

For Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, they would have to have met up somewhere during the war.

Dancing doesn't equal knocking boots, but Ned Dayne seemed to think there was more than just dancing going on between them.
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Dancing doesn't equal knocking boots, but Ned Dayne seemed to think there was more than just dancing going on between them.

I did say that dancing doesn't mean sleeping with.

Ned Dayne wasn't even born when all of this happened. He wasn't born until a few years after the rebellion ended. He got his info from his aunt Allyria, who may or may not have been born at the time but was certainly too young to be paying attention to her sister's potential love affairs at the time. So we're talking third-hand info here at best.

I think Ned and Ashara did probably have feelings for each other, but circumstances made it impossible for anything to happen between them. Unless of course Jon is their son.

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I did say that dancing doesn't mean sleeping with.

Ned Dayne wasn't even born when all of this happened. He wasn't born until a few years after the rebellion ended. He got his info from his aunt Allyria, who may or may not have been born at the time but was certainly too young to be paying attention to her sister's potential love affairs at the time. So we're talking third-hand info here at best.

I think Ned and Ashara did probably have feelings for each other, but circumstances made it impossible for anything to happen between them. Unless of course Jon is their son.

im not sure it matters, unless jon is their son, but I just didnt understand where the Brandon thing came from, seems completely out of left field to me.
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im not sure it matters, unless jon is their son, but I just didnt understand where the Brandon thing came from, seems completely out of left field to me.

The Brandon thing is something that's been under discussion for a while. Barbrey Dustin really opened that up for us. GRRM has said that Brandon fathered no sons/children before he died, which of course gets people thinking what if he had a kid who was born after he died? Add to that the fact that someone dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal (and it wasn't Ned), and Brandon is now known as a player, and you have a recipe for secret kid soup. Usually the only kids mentioned are too young to be fathered by Brandon though.

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if "the dragon has three heads" really means that the three leaders of the endgame battle will be Dany, Jon and a third character also of Targ ancestry, then one of two things must be true--either a relatively minor character with Targ blood (such as (f)Aegon) will be the third head or another major character (other than Jon) will be a "hidden" Targ. There are no other known Targs who are major characters in the series other than Dany. Dany and Jon are both major POV characters. It would seem strange and imbalanced for the third head of the dragon to be a character who simply has Targ blood but has not been a big part of the character development and activity in the books. So in addition to (f)Aegon (who likely has Targ blood even if he is a Blackfyre), characters like Brown Ben Plumm or even Stannis, who are not POV characters, really don't make sense as the third head of the dragon. These characters just have not been fleshed out enough and have not been a focus of the story from the beginning. Thus, there must be another "hidden" Targ.



Who could it be? If you examine the POV characters, one stands out as the likely candidate--Tyrion. He really is the third main character in the series. He has many parallels to Jon and Dany (such as death of mother in connection with their births, outsider status, etc.) and the possible clues that Tyrion is a Targ (see a variety of threads discussing this issue, in particular the original A+J=T thread--now locked--for a full analysis -- http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75441-a-j-t/). I have heard the objection that Tyrion really has to be the blood son of Tywin for the relationship to pay off for the reader--but I am not persuaded. Their treatment of each other was based on years of a relationship built around them believing Tywin to be Tyrion's bio-dad. A revelation after Tywin's death that this fact is not true does not change the nature or import of their relationship or actions towards each other. I know some people find this idea horrible writing or ruining the story for them, and these people will not believe it (if it is true) until revealed by GRRM. But if all the clues are considered, Tyrion as a "hidden" Targ is the most logical conclusion to be made.



So yes, there is another "hidden" Targ, and most likely, it is Tyrion.


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I supply to the Tyrion Targ theory as well. I think Tywin's treatment of Tyrion in the novels is just as much of an indicator as the clues pointing to Tyrion as a Targ are.

Tywin's death reveals something pretty shocking people overlook: he slept with Shae. Perhaps he had been for more than just one night, perhaps he always slept with whores but hid it very well (Varys makes a comment about a Hand who's honor would not let him openly visit brothels). Regardless, this is a very big thing that his brother and family know nothing about (save for Cersei and Jaime, who prefer to ignore it after disposing of Shae's body).

What I think happened is this: Tywin had developed some pretty strong sexism after the death of his father. His marriage brought him alleged happiness and mended that perception of women. The problem? Joanna was hiding an affair from Tywin that ended at some point, but overlapped her marriage to Tywin. Aerys was not always the paranoid, gross mess he was at the time of his death after all and he clearly had an infatuation with her. We know that Joanna was said to have ruled the home while Tywin ruled the kingdom. I think Tywin's whoring likely began because Tywin wanted to exercise power over women (a la Cersei in AFFC).

Circumstances change. Joanna suddenly is pregnant, and Tywin knows it isn't his. Perhaps Joanna was raped, perhaps it was consensual...I personally think the former. Joanna confesses to Tywin, maybe just about the rape or about the entire affair as well. Tywin could've also found out about the affair from others at court. There's little Tywin can do about this, mind you. Aerys is the king, and one who already has treated Tywin less than steller (though Aerys is NOT yet a paranoid mess at this point). To get everything off his chest, Tyrion is born, Joanna dies, and Tywin is PISSED. He never smiles again, and he's back to hating women. Remember dream Joanna's words about Tywin despising being laughed at? The kingdom, Aerys, and in his mind Joanna all laughed at him and basically took a huge crap on his honor. To top it all off he has a "disfigured" son who is a Targaryen but cannot be proved to be one. Tywin must endure all of this, but he's a changed man. I believe Tywin's penchant for whores began as early as after his father's death, probably was sporadic during his marriage until he found out about Tyrion when he struck the habit back up again.

Duskendale happens, Jaime is made a Kings Guard not long after, and Aerys is dethroned. Tywin wants Lannisters in control and in power. Tyrion meanwhile grows up to be much like Tywin, which is the cruelest irony Tywin could imagine. A Targaryen son who is just like him! You can imagine how irate Tywin was over THAT. A lot of people think Tyrion as a Targ ruins his relationships established with his family, but I disagree. It adds a great irony to Tywin's relationship with Tyrion, which was not ruined because Tyrion was a dwarf but because Tyrion was a Targ.

There is so much we still don't know about Tywin, and I think the reasons for his surprising whoring and extreme disdain for women lies in what happened with Joanna.

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I supply to the Tyrion Targ theory as well. I think Tywin's treatment of Tyrion in the novels is just as much of an indicator as the clues pointing to Tyrion as a Targ are.

Tywin's death reveals something pretty shocking people overlook: he slept with Shae. Perhaps he had been for more than just one night, perhaps he always slept with whores but hid it very well (Varys makes a comment about a Hand who's honor would not let him openly visit brothels). Regardless, this is a very big thing that his brother and family know nothing about (save for Cersei and Jaime, who prefer to ignore it after disposing of Shae's body).

What I think happened is this: Tywin had developed some pretty strong sexism after the death of his father. His marriage brought him alleged happiness and mended that perception of women. The problem? Joanna was hiding an affair from Tywin that ended at some point, but overlapped her marriage to Tywin. Aerys was not always the paranoid, gross mess he was at the time of his death after all and he clearly had an infatuation with her. We know that Joanna was said to have ruled the home while Tywin ruled the kingdom. I think Tywin's whoring likely began because Tywin wanted to exercise power over women (a la Cersei in AFFC).

Circumstances change. Joanna suddenly is pregnant, and Tywin knows it isn't his. Perhaps Joanna was raped, perhaps it was consensual...I personally think the former. Joanna confesses to Tywin, maybe just about the rape or about the entire affair as well. Tywin could've also found out about the affair from others at court. There's little Tywin can do about this, mind you. Aerys is the king, and one who already has treated Tywin less than steller (though Aerys is NOT yet a paranoid mess at this point). To get everything off his chest, Tyrion is born, Joanna dies, and Tywin is PISSED. He never smiles again, and he's back to hating women. Remember dream Joanna's words about Tywin despising being laughed at? The kingdom, Aerys, and in his mind Joanna all laughed at him and basically took a huge crap on his honor. To top it all off he has a "disfigured" son who is a Targaryen but cannot be proved to be one. Tywin must endure all of this, but he's a changed man. I believe Tywin's penchant for whores began as early as after his father's death, probably was sporadic during his marriage until he found out about Tyrion when he struck the habit back up again.

Duskendale happens, Jaime is made a Kings Guard not long after, and Aerys is dethroned. Tywin wants Lannisters in control and in power. Tyrion meanwhile grows up to be much like Tywin, which is the cruelest irony Tywin could imagine. A Targaryen son who is just like him! You can imagine how irate Tywin was over THAT. A lot of people think Tyrion as a Targ ruins his relationships established with his family, but I disagree. It adds a great irony to Tywin's relationship with Tyrion, which was not ruined because Tyrion was a dwarf but because Tyrion was a Targ.

There is so much we still don't know about Tywin, and I think the reasons for his surprising whoring and extreme disdain for women lies in what happened with Joanna.

While this scenario may be plausible, the problem seems to be that if Tywin really knew for 100% certainty that Tyrion is not Tywin's biological son, wouldn't Tywin have arranged for Tyrion to have an "accident" and die? I suppose Tyrion would still be a cousin of Tywin (Joanna and Tywin were cousins) and maybe Tywin took the sin of kinslaying very seriously, but I would think Tywin would find some loophole to get rid of Tyrion. What seems perhaps more likely is that Tywin suspected that Tryion was not Tywin's biological son, but he could not be sure. Without 100% proof, Tywin was still willing to prevent Tyrion from inheriting, but not willing to have Tyrion eliminated entirely.

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