Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys?

[David Selig]

Insubordination (repeat insubordination, seeing as Jon gave Slynt multiple chances to change his tune) in a military outfit like the Watch is punishable by death. Slynt was unambiguously guilty of said insubordination and was thus subject to the death penalty. He was hardly an innocent person and honestly you're really, really, really reaching here.

On the other hand, if you just try to murder a superior officer, you get an evening in a cell and that's it. Only if you are Jon Snow the special snowflake though.

[Cas Stark]

Hey, not so fast. I have another explanation.

Masochism. Why else would people prefer the worse written and way more cliched character? Makes sense.

Yeah, unlike Jon's story which is just so trilling and exciting, and isn't detached from the main action at all. :cool4:

Um? The beautiful blonde princess with dragons and magic is less cliched than Jon? I don't think so.

I know some people say that Meereen was exciting and interesting, I find it hard to believe, but geeze, at least Jon is actually in Westeros, where khaleesi it doesn't even look like she will make it there in the next book...talk about detached from the main action....

[OldGimletEye]

Insubordination (repeat insubordination, seeing as Jon gave Slynt multiple chances to change his tune) in a military outfit like the Watch is punishable by death. Slynt was unambiguously guilty of said insubordination and was thus subject to the death penalty. He was hardly an innocent person and honestly you're really, really, really reaching here.

Yes, even in modern times, military organizations don't take kindly to insubordination. And in times of war, I am pretty sure the penalty for insubordination can be death.

[Ingelheim]

Hey, not so fast. I have another explanation.

Masochism. Why else would people prefer the worse written and way more cliched character? Makes sense.

Yeah, unlike Jon's story which is just so trilling and exciting, and isn't detached from the main action at all. :cool4:

The Meeren know isn't the worst storyline EVER written since Martin started with this 23 years ago? Wow. I'm shocked

[Hippocras]

That make a lot of sense Dany made a lot mistakes and she's still alive without any kind of scar whereas Jon got stabbed for trying to do the right thing.

Jon is about to survive the first attempt on his life.

Dany has already survived three attempts. So where is your logic?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yep.

Didn't you know? Men are allowed to make mistakes when they are in power. Women are not.

Which is why Ned, Robb, Robert, Renly, Balon, Joffrey, etc. are all still alive and have faced zero repercussions for their actions, whereas Dany died way back in the first book ...

Honest to God, though, can this "it's just gender" intellectual laziness ever stop? Can people maybe make some half-assed attempt to actually look at some of the criticisms being discussed? I realize that it takes more effort than to say, "People don't like Dany because she's a girl," but I made an effort to answer the question in good faith with a rundown of my grievances, none of which had anything to do with Dany's vag or Jon's dick, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

[lyannaisalive]

The combination of her sense of entitlement regarding the Iron Throne, her arrogance (I am the blood of the Dragon!), and her ignorance about Westeros and the realities of an invasion.

If thats not enough, the HBO Dany pisses me off even more. I wouldn't mind if Drogon went rogue and charred her.

I was thinking the same about the show actress

[aFeastForDragons]

Very good post from another user about Jon and Robb. Just omit the points about Robb.

The biggest difference I see between Robb/Jon and Dany is that Robb and Jon make an effort to stop and seriously consider the effects of their actions on others, and the well-being of the people they are responsible for. Dany's thought process is always me me me me me me me.

There is more to work with in Jon's case since Robb died so early on so I will focus more on him. You can easily make a comparison between the slaves that Dany has freed and the wildlings let through the Wall. The slaves have it hard and live in fear against their will, but you could say the same of the wildlings - they are no more "free folk" than the slaves in many ways. They're trapped and starving in a frozen wasteland based on accident of birth, with the Others and the wights preying on them.

When Jon makes the decision to let them through the Wall, it's based on a lot of factors, and he has considered all of them. He understands he will be making enemies by doing it. He gets that he will have trouble housing and feeding them, and makes provisions for that as fast as he can. He knows that leaving any behind will augment the numbers of the enemy.

Dany just goes on her personal feelings with no forethought whatsoever. She thinks slaves should be free so by gosh she's going to free them. While there is no doubt that slavery SHOULD not exist, it's been shown many times even in our history that you can't just wave a hand and say "you're all free now" and call it a day.

She never thought about the fact that most of the Astapori slaves would have to leave, so she added thousands to the mouths she already couldn't feed that she had when she arrived there (plus the Unsullied). It should have occurred to her that there was no way for the remaining populace of Astapor to make a living once she took away its only real trade, so all she did was switch around who was master and who was slave, and create a starving city unable to feed or govern itself.

At Yunkai she left behind tens of thousands to be used against her as foes (arrow fodder, really) and left the masters in control - what did she think was going to happen, the slavers would all suddenly go "oh, NOW I get it! Slavery is wrong!" and go find some fields to plant?

By the time she reaches Meereen you would think she would be starting to get a clue from the people she had with her who were already starving and dying, but nope. She's just gotta have this city too. She doesn't look around at all the nonexistent fields full of crops or her own complete lack of sea power to hold a port city with, the only thing she is focused on is her own selfish wish to free the world and right all injustice - never once stopping to think of the consequences for the very people she's convinced herself she is helping. I'm sure it's a lovely feeling to set slaves free. It's not so lovely for the slaves who then become the target of the slavers' wrath and are left defenseless, homeless, jobless and starving.

She's swimming in her little garden pond on top of her pyramid eating iced fruits with sl-wait, servants she doesn't pay to attend her every need, dressed in silks and boy she sure does feel bad for all those Astapori dying outside the walls and all the slaves still slaving away in Yunkai and the Meereenese "freedmen" who are now free to beg for food and work and be killed as they try to sleep, with no flanks of guards to watch over them.

"If I look back, I am lost." Why does she keep saying that? Because if she looks back at the unbelievable swath of corpses and misery she's left in her wake, all to satisfy her own selfish need to feel like the Great Liberator, the guilt will (or should) crush her like a bug.

There is a reason for the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." No one can argue that slavery is a plague on humanity. But if there were ever a case study on how NOT to deal with it, here it is.

Jon has improved the situation of the people he set out to help. They're sheltered and for the moment safer than they were from the enemy. They've been given jobs to do, food to eat, clothing to wear. And Jon hasn't asked anyone to do anything he's not willing to do himself - fight, freeze, starve, he is in this with the NW and the wildlings alike.

Dany sits back well pampered and protected and sends others to be hostages, fight, die, starve. How many people would just one of her tokars feed? How many times do we see her pushing away food others would kill for, because she's just not feeling hungry right now?

IMO this is the essence of the dislike of Dany. She is young, vain and spoiled in many ways, believing (as Varys put it) that queenship is her right rather than her duty. Her attempts at "justice" from her ebony bench are as feeble and ineffective as her attempts to justify all the horror she's created, and worst of all, she fools herself into thinking that she did all this for others, when really she was thinking only of herself.

Parents spoil children, not because it's good for a child to get everything they want, but because it makes the parent feel all warm and fuzzy to give the child a moment's joy (without considering the long term effects it will have on the child). Dany is the same. It makes HER feel good to waltz around Slaver's Bay freeing people from bondage and for a brief time, those she's freed feel great. But there are always consequences to decisions, effects from actions. Dany never stops to consider those in her neverending quest for the warm fuzzies.

Jon looks into the future and at all the variables and strikes deals that will have the best chance at achieving a great good for many thousands, without putting them into worse situations than they were in to begin with.

[Queen of Whores]

Okay, adding to the list.

Jon interacts with some seriously awesome characters all the time, such as: Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormont, Qhorin Halfhand, Aemon Targaryen, Mance Rayder, Tormund Gianstbane, Val, Stannis motherfucken Baratheon, Alys Karstark (okay maybe it's just me that thinks she's awesome), etc.

Daenerys interacts with a couple of good characters like Viserys, Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy, but... that's kind of it. Hizdahr and Reznak and all the other bloody stupid interchangeable names. The lists don't compare well, I'm afraid, and I believe this plays a factor into overall character likability.

[PirateVergo]

Jon is about to survive the first attempt on his life.

Dany has already survived three attempts. So where is your logic?

Dany deserved every attempt on her life unlike Jon who did absolutely no mistake.

Bowen Marsh being a retard who is only concerned by the fact that he do not want the wildlings on the wall and would gladly welcome the Others instead of them has nothing to do with Jon's leadership.

[Modelex]

Yeah, unlike Jon's story which is just so trilling and exciting, and isn't detached from the main action at all. :cool4:

Jon's story takes place in Westeros, while Dany's in a foreign continent with no other major characters save herself until the fourth book. She is dealing with Slaver's Bay which is really not terrible relevant outside of Dany's own development while the Wall is the site of the "main conflict" of the series. And as I said before, people simply find the Wall more exciting than Qarth/Slaver's Bay. Jon maintains the facade of high relevance while Dany never does.

[Ellfoy]

The real question would be why does everyone on this forum feels the need to do a Dany vs Jon ?

I personally prefer Jon, I think that's must be because I can relate to him. I can't relate to Dany at all. Besides, the whole Jon is cliché/a special snowflake/has plot armor is beyond stupid. If you don't like him, find real reasons and don't insult GRRM.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Dany may never be able to give birth to an heir which would make her acquisition of the Iron Throne completely useless. Plus Dany thinks of all the other protagonists as enemies and is deliberately blind to the attrocities her family has committed. Also, if Dany's dragons are the reason magic has been growing more powerful, then she is responsible for MANY more deaths than she could realize.

The sense of entitlement doesn't necessarily help. I don't know if I'm pulling for Jon, but I don't think Dany is the hero she believes herself to be. At least, not yet.

[Mikkel]

Jon is not yet in a position of power like Dany has been.

True, commanding the watch is at the same time less prestigious yet more important to the survival of mankind than what Dany is doing. I'll grant you that the number of people involved in the short term is probably higher in Dany's case though.

His character has evolved different as well, because he had had some good influence on him: LC Mormont, Quoryn, Noye, Mance and now, Stannis. Dany had no one.

Agreed, but I honestly prefer capable and (reasonably) competent rulers/commanders, and it doesn't matter much to the end result whether they had help becoming competent or not.

At the start of aGoT, Jon is very entitled and even snobby, thinking the rest of the NW was lesser than he was.

They were lesser than him, at least as far as martial ability goes. And I dare say he grows out of this pretty quickly - unlike Dany who is still convinced she'll be God's gift to Westeros (and if they can't see it, she'll bloody well burn them until they do).

And it wasn't Dany the one who thought about breaking her vows to go and help his brother, because apparently, the Northern Campaign wouldn't survive without the help and advice of Jon Snow.

Yeah, this is a point against him. But then the question wasn't "is Jon Snow perfect" it was "why do you prefer him over Dany" (if indeed one happens to do so).

Dany has taken bad decisions as a leader, yes. Jon isn't even there yet. He has taken hostages, who are mostly small children that he might need to execute if their parents misbehave. Unlike Dany, he hasn't yet faced the chance to actually being in a position of doing such.

The point of taking hostages isn't whether your bluff has been called (Dany), it's projecting a position of sufficient strength that noone will dare calling it, just in case you're not bluffing (Jon). I fail to see this as a point against Jon.

And they both failed to see the danger around them. Jon realised to late that the Watch planned to kill him, and didn't see it coming at all. Dany was outplayed by the Harpy and his/her people. Both are paying the consequences.

True, the difference being Dany had a giant "get outta jail free card" land and take her far away. Which is another reason many people may not like her that much. This is starting to get bogged down into the relative merits of either character, which is not necessarily why one (dis)likes a certain character.

[Hippocras]

Dany deserved every attempt on her life unlike Jon who did absolutely no mistake.

Bowen Marsh being a retard who is only concerned by the fact that he do not want the wildlings on the wall and would gladly welcome the Others instead of them has nothing to do with Jon's leadership.

Isn't this the theme of the thread? I thought it was specifically stated that this was not a Dany hate thread.

No, she did not in any way deserve the attempts on her life. What a silly post.

[Modelex]

I don't see how the "Jon is in more danger" is a terribly good arguement

Jon's stabbing is going to result in nothing serious. I don't see how that makes him anymore "in danger" than Dany who lost her ability to reproduce and was almost assasinated 4 times.

[David Selig]

Dany may never be able to give birth to an heir which would make her acquisition of the Iron Throne completely useless.

Yes, because the only reason for a woman to gain a throne is so she can pass along to her son. That's not sexist at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The point of taking hostages isn't whether your bluff has been called (Dany), it's projecting a position of sufficient strength that noone will dare calling it, just in case you're not bluffing (Jon). I fail to see this as a point against Jon.

I never, ever understood the "Jon's bluff hasn't been called so you can't count the hostage thing as a point in his favor" argument. Um, his bluff hasn't been called because Tormund and Co. take him seriously and won't call it. Deterrence is the entire goddamn point of taking hostages; if it comes to the point where you need to kill a hostage, your strategy has already failed.

[E-Ro]

Its not his gender, thats def bullshit. Personally I dislike them both(because fuck a targ) but Jon is definitely the lesser of two evils.

[Ingelheim]

Dany may never be able to give birth to an heir which would make her acquisition of the Iron Throne completely useless. Plus Dany thinks of all the other protagonists as enemies and is deliberately blind to the attrocities her family has committed. Also, if Dany's dragons are the reason magic has been growing more powerful, then she is responsible for MANY more deaths than she could realize.

The sense of entitlement doesn't necessarily help. I don't know if I'm pulling for Jon, but I don't think Dany is the hero she believes herself to be. At least, not yet.

Dude, that's kind of sexist. I don't like Daenerys but that's not even a reason.