the trees have eyes Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Oh yea also Jon has a way better sense of justice than Dany. He don't crucify people or burn a woman because she killed the leader of rapists savages Se killed MMD because she murdered her unborn son in her womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcat Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Sexism? Bad life choices? Bad hair? Seriously though, it has nothing to with gender. Dany started out with noble intentions, but like so many others she has started to believe in her own hyperbole. Yes, she crucified people responsible for torturing children - or those she believed were responsible - but there was no trial, no effort to find out if they truly were responsible, she just blanket judged them all & carried out her sentence. She is still very much naïve in her belief that she could fix things so easily. She came in & decided she could change an entire culture to match her own desires, but left nothing to replace their beliefs with. Jon has made his share of mistakes too. And may have paid the ultimate price for them. He has broken his oaths - yes, he did it for the greater good, but he still did it - again, its a bit naïve of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I dislike dany but like Sansa. there your argument was just destroyed. Now you can quit while your ahead. Yes, I think Sansa has the potential to be a very good leader, when she get's a bit wiser. Other women that have shown ability to be leaders, a short list: Olenna Tyrell, Asha Greyjoy,Catelyn Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Lol. Yes, lets pillory the woman who dismantled a society that thinks that a good idea of public entertainment is taking three, captured, enslaved children and rub them with raw meat, honey and fish paste, and then take wagers on which of them will get eaten by a bear first. SHE WRECKED THAT ENTIRE GOVERNANCE!!!! It's not that she wrecked the Slaver's Bay government, which, yes, was built on brutality. It's that she tore it down with absolutely no long-term plan to replace it, something that ultimately caused a tremendous amount of death and destruction. Nearly every single free person in Astapor when she left it is now either dead, dying or re-enslaved. The entire city was quite literally wiped off the face of the map. I'm sorry but I have a hard time seeing why the gravity of that doesn't sink in with more people. I'm also, as always, curious about where GRRM is taking Dany when he has to plop her among puppy-strangling, baby-killing slavers in order to come off as sympathetic. Perspective matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 What makes everyone think that the wineseller's (not miller's) daughter was a child and not a grown woman who was a co-conspirator in setting up the terroristic attacks on Dany's soldiers? The whole point of that is that the soldiers went into the shop, got drunk and were then abducted. I always thought that the whole point was the wineseller and his daughter were suspects... one typically doesn't have children working in a bar. There is no textual reference to the daughter being a little girl Well I think torture is bad no matter the age of the person being tortured, but ok maybe she didnt torture kids, just fully grown women. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Se killed MMD because she murdered her unborn son in her womb. A son who would have burned cities, killed people and raped women everywhere in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 What makes everyone think that the wineseller's (not miller's) daughter was a child and not a grown woman who was a co-conspirator in setting up the terroristic attacks on Dany's soldiers?The desire to whine about "Dany the child torturer", duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 What makes everyone think that the wineseller's (not miller's) daughter was a child and not a grown woman who was a co-conspirator in setting up the terroristic attacks on Dany's soldiers? The whole point of that is that the soldiers went into the shop, got drunk and were then abducted. I always thought that the whole point was the wineseller and his daughter were suspects... one typically doesn't have children working in a bar. There is no textual reference to the daughter being a little girl Dany herself says that it's unlikely that they know anything. She doesn't even end up torturing them for information; she does it out of spite when she learns that one of her friends was killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yes, I think Sansa has the potential to be a very good leader, when she get's a bit wiser. Other women that have shown ability to be leaders, a short list: Olenna Tyrell, Asha Greyjoy,Catelyn Stark. Im not so sure about olenna tbh. She is a sexist pig, if she took power the government of westeros would change to some sort of fucked up matriarchy wherein men are oppressed and forced to serve at the whims of tyrannical and evil female dictators. Other then that I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireAndBlood. Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 A son who would have burned cities, killed people and raped women everywhere in the world. Ok, this is a dumb response. It is not ok to kill an unborn child because of what he or she might become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Apples and oranges. Dany is a player, Jon is one of those being played. He may have a bit of power but so had Berric Dondarrion. He's a leader that's actually trying to do some good with no benefit for himself while Dany is primarily concerned with her own fate. It's a self-destructive move to spark a Dany vs Jon, especially on grounds of popularity, when you should really debate Dany vs Robb/Tommen/Joffrey/Stannis/Doran/Arianne/Aegon/etc. I'd love to join a Berric vs Jon discussion but this...it's silly and pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Im not so sure about olenna tbh. She is a sexist pig, if she took power the government of westeros would change to some sort of fucked up matriarchy wherein men are oppressed and forced to serve at the whims of tyrannical and evil female dictators. Other then that I agree. It's not sexist if it's women hating on men, mate. Come on, basic facts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yeah, this is a point against him. But then the question wasn't "is Jon Snow perfect" it was "why do you prefer him over Dany" (if indeed one happens to do so).Well, my point is that they both are pretty much the same: fucked up teens in position of power with little experience and life who had to make the best of their circumstances. The preference for each of them is up to the reader's taste. A few members of the NW planned to kill him. And it looks like they failed.Jon has daggers across his body. They didn't actually failed, unless Jon stands up, shakes up and gets his wounds miraculously healed. Even if he resurrects as AA, or whatever, it's not going to be a nice pretty experience for Jon to say "uff! that was close!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Targaryen Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yes, because the only reason for a woman to gain a throne is so she can pass along to her son. That's not sexist at all. I'm not saying that is the only reason a woman would sit upon the throne. I'm saying that if Dany does ascend to the Iron Throne and MMD was right about her never having another child then soon as she passes away, the land will burst into another war over who gets to take the Iron Throne next. That would render whatever peace had been established with her gaining control of the seven kingdoms effectively null and void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelex Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Do we even know what "questioned sharply" entails? They could have been slapped around a few times and then gave up the names to Shavepate's satisfaction. Really nothing to cry over, or think that they were being flayed or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 The Hound murdered children, yet manages to be a fan favorite. Same with Jamie. So BS on the notion Dany is hated because she hurt children. What she left behind is arguably just as bad. Lawlessness, chaos and bedlam, inter-cine warfare etc.The difference between Dany hate and measured criticism is being able to rationally discuss what she did wrong and what she did right without simply panning her and wishing her dead.She was right to attempt to take apart the slave trade. She simply underestimated how long it would take and how complex a task it would be. She relied too much on her own instincts and not enough on establishing sound systems of councilors, guilds, and checks and balances to bring the process forward.Everything she has done has been done with sound motives, but with poor consideration of consequences and alternatives. She lacks councils of experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 The desire to whine about "Dany the child torturer", duh. Preferable to your apparent desire to whine about almost everything in the books but torture and mass murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jon has executed innocent people, too. Or did I you forget the fan-favourite moment of ADwD where he lopped a man's head of for simply refusing to go to Greyguard? Uh, no. Slynt wasn't remotely innocent. He was guilty of repeated insubordination to his commanding officer, and Jon was completely and utterly within his rights to do what he did. Just because YOU don't think that Slynt's crime was an executable offense doesn't mean that it wasn't by the standards of the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scúrdryhtdðm Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm pretty sure it's at the point where people refuse to acknowledge faults in their favorite characters after they bring them into their favorite circles. Disregarding the execution of the slave masters, which for the record I have zero problems with (personally if you wanted to have the masters stop assassinations have one get beheaded for every freeman killed, but that's just me [what would Tywin do...well he wouldnt' have gotten in that situation]), she led a city(cities if you count Astapor) on a warpath against the rest of the region without a viable alternative or bettering of their lifestyle other than freedom. Freedom means nothing if you can't feed yourself or your family. She has steered Mereen into open conflict with all the powers in the region, it has no way to feed itself (all the groves around the city are burnt), sea trade is cut off, no viable economic plan for the released slaves. It is silly really, all the while having militarized patrols roam through the city. If this happened in the real world we would all be calling her a tyrant and failing to recognize the situation she got them into takes effort NOT to be aware. Too add to the list of deaths she is directly responsible include Astapor. The flux, the butcher king, population being re-enslaved. 5 stars for not thinking things through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's not sexist if it's women hating on men, mate. Come on, basic facts here. Umm no man, she thinks all men are stupid and explicitly states that the only useful part of a man is between his legs. that is sexist in the extreme, you know sexism towards men is a thing right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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