Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I've just re-read the Purple Wedding, and I have some questions.1) Before the wedding, Sansa and Dontos had agreed to rejoin in the godswood. But what was the signal? Did Sansa know Joffrey was to be killed, or did she had to wait for a disturbance, a diversion?2) Who was Oswell? At first, I though he was Lothor Brune, and that Sansa only recognized him when he held a torch on the desk, but Brune is described as small, and the oarsman as tall.3) Littlefinger about Dontos : So Littlefinger planned to abduct Sansa as soon as the beginning of Clash?!1) Dontos was there, he probably pulled her along when Joffrey started dying. Sansa did not know that that would happen beforehand.2) Oswells three sons are the three Kettlebacks Tyrion and Cersei hire. They all like alike, which is why Oswell looks familiar. Sansa has seen his three sons.3) LF didn't immediately enlist Dontos. But it definitely happened after that tourney on Joffs birthday. LF went to Bitterbridge not all too long thereafter, which is where the rest of his plans concerning Joff came to be. I imagine contacting Dontos about it came when LF had returned (after the Blackwater).. there is no need in enlisting Dontos' help when there is nothing for him to do. That would only increase the chances of Dontos selling you out to your enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I do not recall a signal. But since Dontos was present at the wedding, his prlolonged absence might be a signal. Or more likely, "when the dancing is done and you have time to withdraw for a minute" or some such point in time. In theory, nobody should leave the feast without the king's leave. Without an incident, Sansa's leaving could have drawn unwanted attention. 1) Dontos was there, he probably pulled her along when Joffrey started dying. Sansa did not know that that would happen beforehand. That's what I thought at first, but the text doesn't support that : He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fleed, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf." No mention of Dontos. Martin is ambiguous here. It looks like Sansa is fleeing just because "it's too terrible", yet she goes straight to the godswood. That's why I wonder if she knew in advance for Joffrey or not. The man in the boat is the Father of the Kettleblack brothers. He has been in LF's service for years. There is a big reveal in the Baelish castle when Peter is trying to show Sansa how clever he is. 2) Oswells three sons are the three Kettlebacks Tyrion and Cersei hire. They all like alike, which is why Oswell looks familiar. Sansa has seen his three sons. OK, I totally did forget him after my first read! 3) LF didn't immediately enlist Dontos. But it definitely happened after that tourney on Joffs birthday. LF went to Bitterbridge not all too long thereafter, which is where the rest of his plans concerning Joff came to be. I imagine contacting Dontos about it came when LF had returned (after the Blackwater).. there is no need in enlisting Dontos' help when there is nothing for him to do. That would only increase the chances of Dontos selling you out to your enemy. OK, I just didn't realize the planning had begun so soon, I thought it was just with the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 In theory, nobody should leave the feast without the king's leave. Without an incident, Sansa's leaving could have drawn unwanted attention. That's what I thought at first, but the text doesn't support that : No mention of Dontos. Martin is ambiguous here. It looks like Sansa is fleeing just because "it's too terrible", yet she goes straight to the godswood. That's why I wonder if she knew in advance for Joffrey or not. OK, I totally did forget him after my first read! OK, I just didn't realize the planning had begun so soon, I thought it was just with the Tyrells.Well LF offers himself as a husband for Sansa very early on, so he was always plotting somethi.g to.do.with her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not in the face Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Did House Manderly change it's sigil when they moved north? When did Wyman start getting fat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Did House Manderly change it's sigil when they moved north? When did Wyman start getting fat? We don't know. But I think they kept it the same. Reason being, they kept a couple of other things the same; like their religion and the titles of Lord Marshal of the Mander and Knight of the Order of the Green Hand. And I assume he started getting fat a while ago. His sons resemble him in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Did House Manderly change it's sigil when they moved north? When did Wyman start getting fat? I doubt they changed their sigil. I don't know when he started putting on weight, but he was not yet morbidly obese during the rebellion. We know he fought on the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I doubt they changed their sigil. I don't know when he started putting on weight, but he was not yet morbidly obese during the rebellion. We know he fought on the Trident. And Wyman would have been around the age his sons are in the current story.. So perhaps he was thus also about their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bedding Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 1) Dontos was there, he probably pulled her along when Joffrey started dying. Sansa did not know that that would happen beforehand.2) Oswells three sons are the three Kettlebacks Tyrion and Cersei hire. They all like alike, which is why Oswell looks familiar. Sansa has seen his three sons.3) LF didn't immediately enlist Dontos. But it definitely happened after that tourney on Joffs birthday. LF went to Bitterbridge not all too long thereafter, which is where the rest of his plans concerning Joff came to be. I imagine contacting Dontos about it came when LF had returned (after the Blackwater).. there is no need in enlisting Dontos' help when there is nothing for him to do. That would only increase the chances of Dontos selling you out to your enemy.Wow. So the father was working against Cersei's interests and the sons were working for Cersei's interests. Intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Wow. So the father was working against Cersei's interests and the sons were working for Cersei's interests. Intriguing. Actually: “There’s a clever girl.” He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. “When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn.” He chuckled. “But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King’s Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed.” “So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joff ‘s cup?” Ser Osmund had been near the king all night, she remembered. “Did I say that?” Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. “The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme... and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.” Through Oswell, the three Kettleblack brothers originally worked for LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 Wow. So the father was working against Cersei's interests and the sons were working for Cersei's interests. Intriguing. You could argue the sons were working on Cersei's orders but in so doing they worked definitely against her :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bedding Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 You could argue the sons were working on Cersei's orders but in so doing they worked definitely against her :-)Ha. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 You could argue the sons were working on Cersei's orders but in so doing they worked definitely against her :-) Ha. :) I just want to make sure you guys get the point, they were never really working for Cersei, they were spies/plants from Baelish. Actually: Through Oswell, the three Kettleblack brothers originally worked for LF. Aww, I wish you posted the end of that quote, its one of my favorites of the entire series, LF tries so hard to stay clean while eating the orange, but fails. Sansa uses a spoon :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 In theory, nobody should leave the feast without the king's leave. Without an incident, Sansa's leaving could have drawn unwanted attention. That's what I thought at first, but the text doesn't support that : No mention of Dontos. Martin is ambiguous here. It looks like Sansa is fleeing just because "it's too terrible", yet she goes straight to the godswood. That's why I wonder if she knew in advance for Joffrey or not. OK, I totally did forget him after my first read! OK, I just didn't realize the planning had begun so soon, I thought it was just with the Tyrells.Didn't Dontos tell her they'd be leaving on the night of the wedding? And didn't they always meet in the godswood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Didn't Dontos tell her they'd be leaving on the night of the wedding? And didn't they always meet in the godswood? Yes, of course. But they had to agree when to meet. And when you read the beginning of Sansa V, Sansa shows no sign of surprise, or shock. She just has the feeling she's in a living dream. If she wasn't expecting Joffrey's death or an incident, she hides her emotions very well. She's only reacting when she realizes that it was her who carried the poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 does anybody have all the references to the term "bed of blood" and "bloody bed".... i just have chapters 39 and 61 AGOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 does anybody have all the references to the term "bed of blood" and "bloody bed".... i just have chapters 39 and 61 AGOT There's also one in chapter 58, when Ned is imprisoned and dreaming about "the moment when all the smiles died" at Harrenhal. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 There's also one in chapter 58, when Ned is imprisoned and dreaming about "the moment when all the smiles died" at Harrenhal. Thank you thank you... do we have anybody other than ned and mirri using the term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Thank you thank you... do we have anybody other than ned and mirri using the term? I could only find those three instances across all the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Yes, of course. But they had to agree when to meet. And when you read the beginning of Sansa V, Sansa shows no sign of surprise, or shock. She just has the feeling she's in a living dream. If she wasn't expecting Joffrey's death or an incident, she hides her emotions very well. She's only reacting when she realizes that it was her who carried the poison.She hides or emotions... or... maybe she has trouble empathizing with the plight of others? I don't know if I believe that but think about her reaction Ser Hugh. Consider lack of concern about her best friend's situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I could only find those three instances across all the books. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.