Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys - Part II

[Elm Tree]

It's easier to just complain about sexism.

Must be women who complain about that. But seriously though, it's the most ignorant and annoying "argument" there is. It's based on assumptions made on zero basis (this is a weird sentence - I hope you get it).

[OldGimletEye]

Must be women who complain about that. But seriously though, it's the most ignorant and annoying "argument" there is. It's based on assumptions made on zero basis (this is a weird sentence - I hope you get it).

Well, actually I think there are some men who try to raise the issue and there are plenty of female posters here that call bullshit on it.

[Elm Tree]

^ It was meant to be sarcastic, considering I am female as well.

[~DarkHorse~]

My main problem with Dany is that she is very ignorant to the land she feels entitled to. She throws around harsh judgements, yet has no motivation to get a better understanding of the history and 'her' people. Pretty vital! She needs to sit down and hear out the full story of Roberts Rebellion before heading to Westeros... it will be laughable if she shows up unaware of her families crimes. However, I am still holding out for her gaining this wisdom and hopefully learning from it.

Although, I guess Jon Snow knows nothing about his origins too... I blame Ned. Dany has advisors who are willing to tell her but she pushes the opportunity away for later, too afraid to hear the truth.

[OldGimletEye]

^ It was meant to be sarcastic, considering I am female as well.

Oops! Sorry. My bad.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Must be women who complain about that. But seriously though, it's the most ignorant and annoying "argument" there is. It's based on assumptions made on zero basis (this is a weird sentence - I hope you get it).

I'm actually a woman, and I know plenty of other women on here who are not fans of Dany, and plenty of men who are.

ETA: Sorry, didn't get that you were snarking.

[Modelex]

The thing is, Dany is not owed a throne. It's not her fault that she didn't have a better upbringing and education, true. But in an ideal world our leaders are people who have been educated properly and who are aware of what they know and what they don't know. When people's lives are on the line, "Cut her some slack, she has no training for this kind of thing" doesn't cut it. It's precisely because she has no training or education that she has no business ruling. Is it fair? No. But life ain't fair.

Dany isn't owed a throne, but then again nobody is. That won't stop her from exercising her right to try and take it for herself, as many others before her have, with just as much ruling capability as she has right now. She has had a terrible life because she was robbed of her birth right and status as a royal forcefully, by an oaf of a man who drove Westeros to ruin in a way Dany could only dream of. And yet, Dany cannot reciprocate this action? Besides, she has nothing else to live for. She has no family, no true friends, nothing but trying to reclaim what her family lost before she could even walk. Is she just going to swallow this injustice and live her life in obscurity because it'll make you feel better? Nobody with any self-respect would do that if they had the oppurtunities she has

Besides, this is all based on the false premise that 16 year old Dany can't rule worth a damn thus Dany will never learn how. She is growing wiser and more capable. She just needs better councilors. She brought Meereen to a fragile peace with Yunkai on her own, by making the sacrifices necessary. That peace was only broken because of some completely unforeseen factor that is not something she could have prevented.

[Elm Tree]

I'm actually a woman, and I know plenty of other women on here who are not fans of Dany, and plenty of men who are.

ETA: Sorry, didn't get that you were snarking.

That makes two of you, so I'll have to raise my sarcasm game then, haha. My bad.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Besides, this is all based on the false premise that 16 year old Dany can't rule worth a damn thus Dany will never learn how. She is growing wiser and more capable. She just needs better councilors. She brought Meereen to a fragile peace with Yunkai on her own, by making the sacrifices necessary. That peace was only broken because of some completely unforeseen factor that is not something she could have prevented.

I'm sorry, is she really? Because I'm not seeing it. I do see her repeating the same dumb mistakes (get burned by one harmless-looking old lady, turn around and blindly trust another harmless-looking old lady) and refusing to learn anything about Meereen's culture and history, stuff that might actually help her rule it.

She can have the best advisers in the world, and it won't matter a fig if she won't listen to them.

[sj4iy]

My main problem with Dany is that she is very ignorant to the land she feels entitled to. She throws around harsh judgements, yet has no motivation to get a better understanding of the history and 'her' people. Pretty vital! She needs to sit down and hear out the full story of Roberts Rebellion before heading to Westeros... it will be laughable if she shows up unaware of her families crimes. However, I am still holding out for her gaining this wisdom and hopefully learning from it.

Although, I guess Jon Snow knows nothing about his origins too... I blame Ned. Dany has advisors who are willing to tell her but she pushes the opportunity away for later, too afraid to hear the truth.

I agree about Dany. She most definitely has grown up in a fantasy world, and even though she has started to realize this, she won't avail herself of the resources she has to find out the truth. She's told "To go forward, you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"- ie: She needs to see what REALLY happened in the past, to go through the dark truths, in order to finally see what she needs to see.

As far as Jon goes, it will be a hard truth for him to accept, as well. Finding out that the man he always thought of as his father lied to him all of his life, no matter why he did it, will be difficult. It will be even more difficult for Jon to accept that his birth was directly connected to Robert's Rebellion and the deaths of his real parents, as well as the deaths of much of his direct family. However, I would say that he has some advantages over Dany, in that:

1. He doesn't have people trying to protect him from the truth- there's no Jorah Mormont or Barristan Selmy at Jon's side, sworn to his service and trying to protect him at all cost. Selmy or Jorah could have told Dany the truth at any time, but they don't because they obey her- even to her detriment. Jon doesn't have anyone like that...even as Lord Commander, his subordinates criticize his decisions openly.

2. He knows who HE is- Jon's identity is no longer tied up in his birthright, and he's accepted that he is who he is, no matter who his mother was. He definitely had trouble with this at first, but he grew up and started to see the bigger picture.

Dany will more than likely get to this point, too, but it's taking her a lot longer than Jon to do so because of her situation and personality. Jon still has hard truths to face ahead, as well, but I think he won't have as much trouble doing so as Dany will, because he's already been broken down before, and knows how to build himself back up again- Dany has yet to learn how to do that, but she will.

[Trigger Warning]

Probably because more people find what is happening at the wall more engaging than what is happening in Essos.

[Modelex]

Well, yeah, poor little Dany didn't get to go West Point, followed by a master's in government and economics at Harvard. Boo hoo.

You're arguing that we ought to create two different standards when it comes to policy making. One apparently for those that are educated and one for those that are not. But, I am not buying it. And the reason I am not buying it is because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the people that have to pay for bad policies.

And here is another thing. Dany shows little inclination to learn about the places that she intends to rule. She doesn't seem interested in learning about Mereen or Westeros. With regard to Westeros, she has enough information to know that Viserys was full of shit, yet she really doesn't bother to learn about it.

What in the hell did she do exactly on the trip from Quarth to Astapor?

What I'm saying is that Dany in Meereen being compared to Jon as LC is just a completely poor arguement since Jon has had more training, and is managing something a lot easier. This is purely in terms of Dany to Jon not to say that Dany is not wrong in some of the things she does or that she is not making mistakes. It's just that "Jon did better!" is not a very fair statement. Not acknowledging the background as to just exactly why Jon is doing better is not doing anyone any favors.

Dany shows little inclination to learn about the places she intends to rule? She asks Barristan about Westeros tons of times, about her father, about things that went on there. She has learned quite a bit about Meereen, and has listened to each and every issue she is presented with attentively, to the point where she memorizes someone of them. And I also find it strange that you expect years of indoctrination to be washed away by.. oh wait nobody has bothered to tell her about her father in any great detail. Besides apart from the biased stuff, Viserys taught her about some legitimate history as well.

Many people grow up with shitty parents. That still doesn't give them the right to do terrible things.

And Dany does very few terrible things. Some of what she does results in terrible things, but this is not out of the intent to do something morally wrong or cause harm to those who are innocent. She just does not conceive that her actions will result in said calamities

I was just thinking Randyll and Sam too. Your upbeinging might be shit but it's still a choice to be a dick. I mean, look at Ramsey? Surely he had a reasonable upbringing but he's a compleee psychopath. And he's quite knowledgeable about all sorts given he probably had the upbringing of a peasant

And Dany isn't a dick either. I just think her sense of morality can use a bit of maturity. She always has her heart in the right place

[sj4iy]

And Dany does very few terrible things. Some of what she does results in terrible things, but this is not out of the intent to do something morally wrong or cause harm to those who are innocent. She just does not conceive that her actions will result in said calamities

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and many people have done terrible things in the name of righteous causes. Melisandre is very similar...the ends justifies the means. But she gets more flack than Dany does.

[OldGimletEye]

Dany isn't owed a throne, but then again nobody is. That won't stop her from exercising her right to try and take it for herself, as many others before her have, with just as much ruling capability as she has right now. She has had a terrible life because she was robbed of her birth right and status as a royal forcefully, by an oaf of a man who drove Westeros to ruin in a way Dany could only dream of. And yet, Dany cannot reciprocate this action? Besides, she has nothing else to live for. She has no family, no true friends, nothing but trying to reclaim what her family lost before she could even walk. Is she just going to swallow this injustice and live her life in obscurity because it'll make you feel better? Nobody with any self-respect would do that if they had the oppurtunities she has

Ok let's put ourselves in the position of hypothetical decision maker. We are having to come up with a rule of who ought to have power in some country, subject to the constraint that monarchy isn't going away anytime soon. What rule should we come up with if we are trying to maximize the overall utility of the country? Should the rule be 1) anybody that can take the throne by force or 2)peaceful succession through hereditary monarchy? Given no legitimate grounds for rebellion, I would pick rule 2.

You have interesting way of explaining Robert's Rebellion by the way. I think most people would agree that Aery's was at fault for creating the rebellion. Bobby B., John Arryn, and Ned had legitimate grounds to rebel.

Besides, this is all based on the false premise that 16 year old Dany can't rule worth a damn thus Dany will never learn how. She is growing wiser and more capable. She just needs better councilors. She brought Meereen to a fragile peace with Yunkai on her own, by making the sacrifices necessary. That peace was only broken because of some completely unforeseen factor that is not something she could have prevented.

Well, past performance is no guarantee of the future, but it's the best thing we have to predict the future. After several cycles of posterior updating, my current prior leads me to believe that Dany isn't a particularly good ruler. So my current forecast would be she isn't going to do very well as ruler. Now, as more data comes in about Dany's ruling abilities I will update my prior.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And Dany does very few terrible things. Some of what she does results in terrible things, but this is not out of the intent to do something morally wrong or cause harm to those who are innocent. She just does not conceive that her actions will result in said calamities

So? Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with good intentions. It doesn't excuse or mitigate the damage done.

As to the bolded part, that's precisely why she's so dangerous: She goes off half-cocked with absolutely no forethought or iota of self-awareness as to what the long-term consequences will be. It's not because the fallout from her adventures is that hard to figure it out, it's because she doesn't think.

[Modelex]

I'm sorry, is she really? Because I'm not seeing it. I do see her repeating the same dumb mistakes (get burned by one harmless-looking old lady, turn around and blindly trust another harmless-looking old lady) and refusing to learn anything about Meereen's culture and history, stuff that might actually help her rule it.

She can have the best advisers in the world, and it won't matter a fig if she won't listen to them.

She does learn about Meereen's culture and history from the Green Grace and Hizdahr. She advises her to start wearing a tokar to fit in more, she does it. She tells her about Hizdahr's royal lineage and how he can reconcile the city's problems if he marries her, and she does it. Hizdahr tells her about the fighting pits and brings in pit fighters to tell her about how important they are to the people of Meereen, she goes on to reopen them. All this together results in a complete stoppage to the Sons of the Harpy murders and she goes on to forge a peace with Yunkai, but comes to a compromise as to allow some slavery outside the city. She did as best as could be done in such a complex political environment, and the Green Grace may or may not be behind the Harpy murders but even so, she does what is needed so that they stop, which is the important thing

She listens to Barristan, Galazza, Shavepate sometimes, Hizdahr, Reznak etc. I don't understand where this idea that she is completely deaf to council comes from. Sure she refuses to go along with their advice sometimes but that's usually because it's something horrible like killing hostage children to pay the Sons back for their crimes

[David Selig]

Does your liking of fictional characters depend so much on their governing skills? Seems a weird criterion to me...

[sj4iy]

She does learn about Meereen's culture and history from the Green Grace and Hizdahr. She advises her to start wearing a tokar to fit in more, she does it. She tells her about Hizdahr's royal lineage and how he can reconcile the city's problems if he marries her, and she does it. Hizdahr tells her about the fighting pits and brings in pit fighters to tell her about how important they are to the people of Meereen, she goes on to reopen them. All this together results in a complete stoppage to the Sons of the Harpy murders and she goes on to forge a peace with Yunkai, but comes to a compromise as to allow some slavery outside the city. She did as best as could be done in such a complex political environment, and the Green Grace may or may not be behind the Harpy murders but even so, she does what is needed so that they stop, which is the important thing

She listens to Barristan, Galazza, Shavepate sometimes, Hizdahr, Reznak etc. I don't understand where this idea that she is completely deaf to council comes from. Sure she refuses to go along with their advice sometimes but that's usually because it's something horrible like killing hostage children to pay the Sons back for their crimes

The problem is that she does all of this AFTER she took over. She knows none of this beforehand and only starts to do any of this when she is losing control of the city. She's reacting instead of being proactive about it.

Compare to Jon and his work with the Wildlings...he's lived amongst them. He knows their ways, and understands why they do what they do. He doesn't judge them, and works with them to come to peaceful solutions. Had Dany done any of that, do you think she'd be having all of the trouble she's having? I doubt it.

[GERM]

According to most fan polls, he isn't.

Next?

Lol.

I think every poll out there ranks Dany well below Tyrion, Arya and Jon.

[Modelex]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and many people have done terrible things in the name of righteous causes. Melisandre is very similar...the ends justifies the means. But she gets more flack than Dany does.

Melisandre is completelty different. This woman truly has no standards, and will even consider burning children to death something Dany would never. And Melisandre doesn't get nearly as much hate as Dany

Ok let's put ourselves in the position of hypothetical decision maker. We are having to come up with a rule of who ought to have power in some country, subject to the constraint that monarchy isn't going away anytime soon. What rule should we come up with if we are trying to maximize the overall utility of the country? Should the rule be 1) anybody that can take the throne by force or 2)peaceful succession through hereditary monarchy? Given no legitimate grounds for rebellion, I would pick rule 2.

You have interesting way of explaining Robert's Rebellion by the way. I think most people would agree that Aery's was at fault for creating the rebellion. Bobby B., John Arryn, and Ned had legitimate grounds to rebel.

Well, past performance is no guarantee of the future, but it's the best thing we have to predict the future. After several cycles of posterior updating, my current prior leads me to believe that Dany isn't a particularly good ruler. So my current forecast would be she isn't going to do very well as ruler. Now, as more data comes in about Dany's ruling abilities I will update my prior.

You can pick whatever options you want, that is not how real life works. The entire concept of the Iron Throne was created by someone who followed 1) by the way

And Dany doesn't have legitimate grounds to reclaim her birth right? Why is that? She had nothing to do with Aerys' madness or the rebellion and was punished anyways. She should sit in Essos all by her lonesome while the people who killed off mosy of her family sit on the Throne... why again? What human being would just do nothing in such circumstances if they could do something?

Dany freed Meereen and came to a peace with her enemies, she is actually very good for accomplishing that all at age 16. If you want to see some terrible rulers, look at the clowns in Westeros for a start who are twice her age and twice as stupid nut nobody is railing off on how bad they are constantly

So? Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with good intentions. It doesn't excuse or mitigate the damage done.

As to the bolded part, that's precisely why she's so dangerous: She goes off half-cocked with absolutely no forethought or iota of self-awareness as to what the long-term consequences will be. It's not because the fallout from her adventures is that hard to figure it out, it's because she doesn't think.

Damage always occurs when society rapidly changes, it's the nature of reform. But we are looking purely at the short term when the long term effects of Dany's campaign have yet to be examined and they could turn out to be highly beneficial, and a marked improvement in the living standards of the average Essosi

She does think, she just doesn't think enough. She does not consider every possible thing that could go wrong from her actions like she is expected to here. She takes things into account, it's just that she does not believe things are going to go as out of control as they end up being, which is more a display of naivety than a complete lack of consideration. And some of the things that happen in Slaver's Bay are actually not easy to figure out or predict by any measure, in my humble opinion