assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 the source is in the link to the quote.... The Trident occurred at least a brief period before the Sack, because Rhaella and Viserys had time to evacuate, and because the Rebellion forces that fought at the Trident turned to King's Landing. Ned showed up with his men right behind Tywin. So calling the Trident and the Sack simultaneous isn't exactly accurate. Oh I happen to agree with you 100%. But I have danced this dance with State now for three threads. He's not going to give in unless we prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Given what he's tried to argue thus far, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 She was pregnant when she left King's Landing even if she didn't know at the time that she was pregnant. And given how far along she was (read: not very much, at all), she in all likelihood would not have known at the time. However, because she did give birth to Dany 9 months after leaving, in hindsight, we know (and people in-story know) that she must have been pregnant when she left. I'm sorry but I really don't see what is so bloody hard to get about this. You're conflating being pregnant with knowing that you're pregnant. They're not synonymous. got it... no conflating... just researching.. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_when_during_Roberts_Rebellion places time of birth in relation to known events... there is no need to determine time of conception... or time when pregnancy was known... it is just a given date is it acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Oh I happen to agree with you 100%. But I have danced this dance with State now for three threads. He's not going to give in unless we prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Have you given a textual or non textual source? stop dancing... I am not asking for beyond the shadow of a doubt... just something beyond your word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Have you given a textual or non textual source? stop dancing... I am not asking for beyond the shadow of a doubt... just something beyond your word. We have linked to so many sources about puerpurel fever and SSMs about GRRM and his (admitted) inconsistency with distance. Better people than I have given more explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 got it... no conflating... just researching.. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_when_during_Roberts_Rebellion places time of birth in relation to known events... there is no need to determine time of conception... or time when pregnancy was known... it is just a given date is it acceptable? I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. I've nailed down the timeline as best as I can based on the SSMs and what we get from the novels. I dunno what else to tell you except that the window of Jon's birth is what I said it is: about the time of the Sack up to a few weeks after. I'm also still not convinced that you know what I mean when I say that people know Rhaella was pregnant when she evacuated with the benefit of hindsight, not that anyone (including Rhaella) knew she was pregnant at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Have you given a textual or non textual source? stop dancing... I am not asking for beyond the shadow of a doubt... just something beyond your word. How does the SSM information, and the text referencing to when Rhaella fled not count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 got it... no conflating... just researching.. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_when_during_Roberts_Rebellion places time of birth in relation to known events... there is no need to determine time of conception... or time when pregnancy was known... it is just a given date is it acceptable? Is it acceptable to you? Do you believe R+L=J? Hey, State, if you do believe in R+L=J or even better, legitimate J. What's your proof and evidence to convince doubters and detractors? What will be your contribution to this thread to convince and hardened the beliefs of RLJ fans even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 How does the SSM information, and the text referencing to when Rhaella fled not count? I was asking the same question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 got it... no conflating... just researching.. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/What_happened_when_during_Roberts_Rebellion places time of birth in relation to known events... there is no need to determine time of conception... or time when pregnancy was known... it is just a given date is it acceptable? I'm not accepting any dates from that because there aren't any dates there! Nowhere does it say "The Sack was in June and Dany was born in April of the next year" or anything. There's one quote that says the "nine months after Rhaegar's death and the Sack" thing, and above that there's a whole pile of chronology that makes it virtually impossible for the two events to have happened at the same time. Between the ruby ford and the Sack, there was time for news of the death to reach KL, for Aerys to hatch the wildfire plot and burn his Hand, for Aerys to rape, impregnate, and send away his wife, and for two BIG ARMIES to travel to KL from various places. The essay is an effort to make sense of GRRM's timelines, which are fuzzy, and he knows they're fuzzy. The actual quote from the actual books is "She had been born on Dragonstone nine months after their flight". After their flight, not after the ruby ford, not after the Sack. The flight happened somewhere in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I was asking the same question. The problem is your interpretation, i.e. that you assume that Rhaella and everyone else knew she was pregnant when she left. I've already pointed out, multiple times which you've just ignored, that that probably wasn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 The actual quote from the actual books is "She had been born on Dragonstone nine months after their flight". After their flight, not after the ruby ford, not after the Sack. The flight happened somewhere in between. Yes, exactly. And the flight is easy to pin down, too. It had to happen in the intermediate two weeks between when Chelsted was burned and when the city was Sacked, because Rossart was Hand for a fortnight and Rhaella was pregnant when she left. So in broad terms, Dany being born 9 months after the Sack works as a general rule of thumb because of the short amount of time between her conception and the Sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I was asking the same question. Wha????? You asked for a textual or non textual sources, then tell him to stop dancing. They have given you myriad cannon sources, yet you seem to be insisting for more, more, more. Even the OJ Jury would have to agree with everything that's been said. How does telling someone to stop dancing around providing textual sources mean that you agree with the textual sources they've provided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 This is a joke right?Draw a number line.Dany = 8-9 months after Jon.Dany Conception = 0 at KLKL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8 9)Now just take a pencil or your finger and bounce backwards or just apply the inverse.9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 (1 KL) Jon's birthJon is either Born right around the time Dany is conceived or a month after at the latest. "All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."And try to remember the "thereabouts" part, the man made an entire point of saying he isn't really sure it is coming down to days or even months."I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes."You know when Jon was born? When Martin says he was. Jon and Dany were born oh around these times. The book is not a study in logistics and chronology.I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Jon and Dany were both in fact born and each had two parents, despite a rumor about Jon and a cabbage. It is confirmed that Jon is less than a year older than Dany. That's it that is what you are getting from the author. Not a big deal it's the ballpark Martin likes to work with. The name of the field is vague and after close to 20 years people should be used to it, hell that email is from 1999, anyone get the full detailed timeline yet? 15 years later? One of these days, in one of the books, at some point in the future we may get a timeline that may be accurate to within a year of an event.The KG were at the tower, for whatever reason that is where they were. Could each have been there for a different reason? Could they all have made their own choices? Could they all have had their own reasons? Yes of course.Martin answering questions about the KG.THE KINGSGUARD1) Barristan Selmy stated in AGoT, that he fought beside Prince Lewyn of Dorne. How was Lewyn related to Doran Martell and was he the seventh Kingsguard who was replaced by Jaime at Harrenhal?Lewyn was an uncle to Doran Martell. He was a Kingsguard, and died fighting on the Trident.2) What would happen if a Kingsguard is seriously crippled, thus that he is unable to protect the king anymore?With seven Kingsguard, there are usually enough who are young and strong to allow older members to serve our their lives with honor.3) Kingsguards may not have a wife or children, but does this also include a vow of chastity?In theory, yes, but at least one Kingsguard was executed for sleeping with a king's mistress, and many others have doubtless had "lapses."4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve _whoever_ is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan _choose_ to continue their service as Robert was crowned?The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of their skill.Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest, deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are processions of wheelchairs and walkers.Martin once again talking about how he views Logistics and time.The key word in my "about a hundred years" is "about.""The Hedge Knight" takes place around 208-209, as you surmise. I have the exact year in my notes, but I don't have them to hand at the moment.Mormont's dialogue -- and the dialogue and thoughts of other characters, for that matter -- needs to be understood =as= dialogue. When we talk, we tend to be imprecise about such things, saying something happened "in the sixties" or "at the turn of the century," or that World War II was "fifty years ago." It's no different in the Seven Kingdoms.And that goes for distances as well as dates. A phrase like "a thousand leagues" is not meant to be a precise measure of distance, only the equivilent of "a million miles away," ie, "a very long way."Like when the First Men came to Westeros there really is no exact date, oh 12,000 years ago. Translation in Martin, they came here a long ass time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Yes, exactly. And the flight is easy to pin down, too. It had to happen in the intermediate two weeks between when Chelsted was burned and when the city was Sacked, because Rossart was Hand for a fortnight and Rhaella was pregnant when she left. So in broad terms, Dany being born 9 months after the Sack works as a general rule of thumb because of the short amount of time between her conception and the Sack. Oh, good catch. I had forgotten Rossart's term of office was known, and it falls completely within that period of time; Rossart can't be Hand till Chelsted isn't anymore, and Rossart dies at Jaime's hand right before the city is Sacked. So the space between ruby ford and Sack can't be any less than two weeks, and might be more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 This is why people get pregnant so easily... they can't do basic maths. (which was my case, I must admit... even though I went to Math School in college... damn, conception is hard!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Is it acceptable to you? Do you believe R+L=J? Hey, State, if you do believe in R+L=J or even better, legitimate J. What's your proof and evidence to convince doubters and detractors? What will be your contribution to this thread to convince and hardened the beliefs of RLJ fans even more? it is acceptable... any common source we can cite as the authority is acceptable. I generally prefer text... but there is more canon than the text.. I would prefer to use the source material you are citing... however no link is forthcoming. So, I provided one and asked if it is acceptable... The contribution; is a common source-- It will do nothing to convince believers... but it will make them more credible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Jon and Dany were both in fact born and each had two parents, despite a rumor about Jon and a cabbage. It is confirmed that Jon is less than a year older than Dany. That's it that is what you are getting from the author. Not a big deal it's the ballpark Martin likes to work with. The name of the field is vague and after close to 20 years people should be used to it, hell that email is from 1999, anyone get the full detailed timeline yet? 15 years later? One of these days, in one of the books, at some point in the future we may get a timeline that may be accurate to within a year of an event. Really wish I hadn't been eating a sandwich when I read that sentence. *choke* it is acceptable... any common source we can cite as the authority is acceptable. I generally prefer text... but there is more canon than the text.. I would prefer to use the source material you are citing... however no link is forthcoming.So, I provided one and asked if it is acceptable... The contribution; is a common source--It will do nothing to convince believers... but it will make them more credible... Well loads of people have given you text references, both ASOIAF text and other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I'm not accepting any dates from that because there aren't any dates there! Nowhere does it say "The Sack was in June and Dany was born in April of the next year" or anything. There's one quote that says the "nine months after Rhaegar's death and the Sack" thing, and above that there's a whole pile of chronology that makes it virtually impossible for the two events to have happened at the same time. Between the ruby ford and the Sack, there was time for news of the death to reach KL, for Aerys to hatch the wildfire plot and burn his Hand, for Aerys to rape, impregnate, and send away his wife, and for two BIG ARMIES to travel to KL from various places. The essay is an effort to make sense of GRRM's timelines, which are fuzzy, and he knows they're fuzzy. The actual quote from the actual books is "She had been born on Dragonstone nine months after their flight". After their flight, not after the ruby ford, not after the Sack. The flight happened somewhere in between. Does between the Rhaegar's death and the sack of KL fail to cover the time period? or is there something more specific available? or is http://www.westeros.org an unacceptable source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Really wish I hadn't been eating a sandwich when I read that sentence. *choke* Well loads of people have given you text references, both ASOIAF text and other stuff. then finding one... copying and pasting it should be no problem... yet nobody has.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Does between the Rhaegar's death and the sack of KL fail to cover the time period? or is there something more specific available? or is http://www.westeros.org an unacceptable source? like Ygritte said above, the time between Rhaegar's death and the Sack is at least 2 weeks. A lot can happen in two weeks--hell, a lot DID happen in those two weeks, including Dany's conception and flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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