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R+L=J v. 88


Stubby

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Putting blinders on . . . Lyanna dies of a fever (Puerperal) after asking Ned to promise. Howland and someone else find Ned holding her hand, after she has died. Jon was born not more than ten days before Ned arrived, and not less than three days before.

Is there confirmation of Puerperal fever, or is that just a diagnosis based on symptoms?

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Is there confirmation of Puerperal fever, or is that just a diagnosis based on symptoms?

I don't think it's confirmed because puerperal fever is only in instances of childbirth; confirming it would mean confirmation that Lyanna was pregnant to begin with.

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To complicate matters even more, I checked the Wiki, which has Ned and Cat marrying/conceiving Robb after the Battle of Bells, several months into RR. That makes the timeline even WORSE since Robb is supposedly older than Jon - but this is not physically possible if 1) Robb were conceived after Jon, and 2) RR only lasted about a year.

It seems to me that you are making some bad assumptions about Jon's conception birth. Yes, according to canon, Ned's and Jon Arryn's wedding occur after the Battle of the Bells. And, I personally have Lyann missing for four or so months when ned marries, Robb is conceived. I am pretty sure that Lyanna and Rhaegar took their time to plan, and that Rhaegar may have resisted Lyanna's plot.

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I don't think it's confirmed because puerperal fever is only in instances of childbirth; confirming it would mean confirmation that Lyanna was pregnant to begin with.

This.

If we start with the premise that she was pregnant, it's the best fit for the symptoms as described (fever, bleeding).

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Ah yes. So the plot definitly existed before Rhaegar left.

That leaves the question whether or not Rhaegar knew about it.

I cannot believe that Rhaegar would have been present for Chelsted's roasting (Jonothor Darry was present afterwards, when Rhaella was raped) without knowing the reasons, whether Aerys would tell him the truth or not. There must be a reason for Rhaegar to have become determined "to make some changes" after he returned from putting down the rebellion.

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This.

If we start with the premise that she was pregnant, it's the best fit for the symptoms as described (fever, bleeding).

Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else.

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Is there confirmation of Puerperal fever, or is that just a diagnosis based on symptoms?

There is confirmation of a fever.... Peurperal fever is a common post pregnancy fever that can be fatal.

That is reasonable...

AGOT Ned Chapter 4 confirms the fever and Ned's presence for Lyanna's death. It also confirms that an unspecified "They" including Howland find Ned holding Lyanna's hand after she died....

Lyanna died of a fever 3 to 10 days after birth,

Ned was there

They including Howland Reed were there

None of that is related to Ned's arrival at the ToJ

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There is confirmation of a fever.... Peurperal fever is a common post pregnancy fever that can be fatal.

That is reasonable...

AGOT Ned Chapter 4 confirms the fever and Ned's presence for Lyanna's death. It also confirms that an unspecified "They" including Howland find Ned holding Lyanna's hand after she died....

Lyanna died of a fever 3 to 10 days after birth,

Ned was there

They including Howland Reed were there

None of that is related to Ned's arrival at the ToJ

Oh, I get she died of fever (and actually agree about Peurperal fever). Just playing devil's advocate, wondering if we had confirmation that it was Peurperal fever and not something like Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever

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I cannot believe that Rhaegar would have been present for Chelsted's roasting (Jonothor Darry was present afterwards, when Rhaella was raped) without knowing the reasons, whether Aerys would tell him the truth or not. There must be a reason for Rhaegar to have become determined "to make some changes" after he returned from putting down the rebellion.

Exactly. And Rhaegar went to the Trident seemingly convinced that he would return. If he knew about the wildfire plot (and with wmall you've pointed out, I don't see how he couldn't have known), he would have known what the wildfire was for: to burn KL should the enemy come knocking on the door.

Since Rhaegar was convinced he would return to KL, there was no need to try and stop the wildfire plot before he left.

I do think that Rhaegar had been plotting to "make changes" when Harrenhal occured, but that the comet he saw the night of Aegons conception halted those plans (Aerys' presence at Harrenhal would have halted any immediate plans, Aegons conception would have halted any substitute plan).

Aerys' actions during the Rebellion will have brought those plans back in Rhaegars head (and in addition, the dragons third head was safe and about to be born, so Rhaegar had nothing to worry about prophecy-wise, or so he thought, I think).

And the return of those plans in Rhaegars mind would then have been what inspired the speech Rhaegar gave Jaime

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Oh, I get she died of fever (and actually agree about Peurperal fever). Just playing devil's advocate, wondering if we had confirmation that it was Peurperal fever and not something like Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever

I give you

Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else.

He is right...

Ned found lyanna in her "bed of blood"

She died 3 to 10 days later of fever

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Oh, I get she died of fever (and actually agree about Peurperal fever). Just playing devil's advocate, wondering if we had confirmation that it was Peurperal fever and not something like Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever

Padme Amidala disease? :rofl:

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Padme Amidala disease? :rofl:

Glad I'm understandable.

Ned found lyanna in her "bed of blood"

She died 3 to 10 days later of fever

If we're being technical, nothing is stopping Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever (or hell, ebola or something if we most) from killing her 3-10 days after childbirth. Occam's Razor says we can link the two as that's the simplest explanation, but the two don't HAVE to be linked.

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where do you get that?

Just reread Got Chapter 4 page 40

Ned entering the room is not there...

I actually agree with you. I was mistaken and misremembering.

However, MntLion and Rhaenys did a whole timeline things already. I'll refer back to that.

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If you're not happy with the timeline then how about the symbolism of



"Our knees do not bend easily..."



Yet one of the KG (Whent) is literally on one knee when Ned arrives, sharping a blade, prepared to defend his new King.


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[...] when Harrenhal occured, but that the comet he saw the night of Aegons conception halted those plans

I've always thought that was very funny. Either Rhaegar saw the comet and got all horny ("mmm... prophecy fulfilment...") or he was taking count of the days like a girl to remember when Aegon was conceived :lol:

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