UnmaskedLurker Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 She already had the fever when Ned entered her room and Lyanna gave up her life. Based on my online research, if Lyanna died of puerperal fever (and we cannot be 100% certain of this, but the evidence is strong), the fever starts "within 3 days" of giving birth. It is caused an infection from the birthing process itself, so no fever would be found at the time of birth, as the infection only sets in as a result of the birth (exposure of the birth canal during the birthing process). So if Ned found Lyanna with a fever in a "bed of blood" the bed of blood CANNOT be her actually birthing bed because she would not have a fever at the time of birth. It would be a metaphor for the fact that she is still bedridden as a result of the birth and lying a blood because the puerperal fever causes her to keep bleeding. Of course, we cannot know any of this unless and until GRRM reveals it. Maybe she caught a different fever/infection prior to giving birth which weakened her enough so that the birthing process killed her. But the best evidence we have is that when Ned found Lyanna in her "bed of blood" and she died, she had given birth 3-10 days prior. We know that at the time that she died she had a fever and that there is a smell of blood--which likely is the same blood being referred to when Ned later refers to the "bed of blood" when recalling the showdown. The most natural interpretation of the evidence, thus suggests that Lyanna gave birth 3-10 days prior to the showdown. Might GRRM write the events differently--of course--but the best evidence it that it happened this way. I am not sure that it really makes a difference in the ultimate plot, however, whether Lyanna died the day of the showdown or 3-10 days later--why would this difference even matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Glad I'm understandable. If we're being technical, nothing is stopping Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever (or hell, ebola or something if we most) from killing her 3-10 days after childbirth. Occam's Razor says we can link the two as that's the simplest explanation, but the two don't HAVE to be linked. Occam's Razor It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor If we're being technical, nothing is stopping Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever ASSUMPTION (or hell, ebola or something if we most) ASSUMPTION from killing her 3-10 days after childbirth. ASSUMPTION Occam's Razor says we can link the two as that's the simplest explanation, but the two don't HAVE to be linked. you might want to check that definition ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ned found Lyanna in a bed of blood.... --Not an assumption Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else. not an assumption HYPOTHESIS Ned found Lyanna in childbirth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I actually agree with you. I was mistaken and misremembering. However, MntLion and Rhaenys did a whole timeline things already. I'll refer back to that. I recall the timeline.... Jon born 8-9 months before Dany--confirmed Dany born 9 months after fleeing KL--confirmed Jon born within a month of Dany fleeing KL--confirmed If it falls out of line with that..i don't need it refered. If it falls in line with that... I don't need it refered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Occam's Razor It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor If we're being technical, nothing is stopping Rheagar-just-died-so-let's-get-sick fever ASSUMPTION (or hell, ebola or something if we most) ASSUMPTION from killing her 3-10 days after childbirth. ASSUMPTION Occam's Razor says we can link the two as that's the simplest explanation, but the two don't HAVE to be linked. you might want to check that definition ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ned found Lyanna in a bed of blood.... --Not an assumption not an assumption HYPOTHESIS Ned found Lyanna in childbirth I believe she is found in a bed of blood with a fever. The simplest explanation is that it is the Puerperal fever, and not ebola or lovesick fever or something. I'm not writing out a verbatim definition of Occam's razor. It's not an assumption she's feverish. It's not an assumption that her blood is beddy. It just requires the (small) assumption that the two are linked. The alternative would be that she gave birth (not an assumption) and then contracted a fever completely unrelated to childbirth (a larger assumption than before), with that fever killing her shortly after Ned found her. My point was we can assume Puerperal fever is the correct answer even though it's not confirmed. I was just being a picky person and pointing out that TECHNICALLY, it could be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 What part of "refers" did you not understand? ETA: Nevermind, I forgot who it was . . . Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else. Wjart part of IS DEFINED AS do you not get? What part of Nothing else... are you failing to comprehend your own words chief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Based on my online research, if Lyanna died of puerperal fever (and we cannot be 100% certain of this, but the evidence is strong), the fever starts "within 3 days" of giving birth. It is caused an infection from the birthing process itself, so no fever would be found at the time of birth, as the infection only sets in as a result of the birth (exposure of the birth canal during the birthing process). So if Ned found Lyanna with a fever in a "bed of blood" the bed of blood CANNOT be her actually birthing bed because she would not have a fever at the time of birth. It would be a metaphor for the fact that she is still bedridden as a result of the birth and lying a blood because the puerperal fever causes her to keep bleeding. Of course, we cannot know any of this unless and until GRRM reveals it. Maybe she caught a different fever/infection prior to giving birth which weakened her enough so that the birthing process killed her. But the best evidence we have is that when Ned found Lyanna in her "bed of blood" and she died, she had given birth 3-10 days prior. We know that at the time that she died she had a fever and that there is a smell of blood--which likely is the same blood being referred to when Ned later refers to the "bed of blood" when recalling the showdown. The most natural interpretation of the evidence, thus suggests that Lyanna gave birth 3-10 days prior to the showdown. Might GRRM write the events differently--of course--but the best evidence it that it happened this way. I am not sure that it really makes a difference in the ultimate plot, however, whether Lyanna died the day of the showdown or 3-10 days later--why would this difference even matter? I don't think it does, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Wjart part of IS DEFINED AS do you not get? What part of Nothing else... are you failing to comprehend your own words chief Bed of Blood and Bloody Bed are exclusively used as synonyms by the author for Birthing Bed. Are you failing to comprehend? You couldn't make the connection of my words with the intent, or did you deliberately create an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I believe she is found in a bed of blood with a fever. The simplest explanation is that it is the Puerperal fever, and not ebola or lovesick fever or something. I'm not writing out a verbatim definition of Occam's razor. It's not an assumption she's feverish. It's not an assumption that her blood is beddy. It just requires the (small) assumption that the two are linked. The alternative would be that she gave birth (not an assumption) and then contracted a fever completely unrelated to childbirth (a larger assumption than before), with that fever killing her shortly after Ned found her. My point was we can assume Puerperal fever is the correct answer even though it's not confirmed. I was just being a picky person and pointing out that TECHNICALLY, it could be something else. I believe she is found in a bed of blood with a fever. to do so you have to add "Ned found" into AGOT chapter 4 page 40 The simplest explanation is that it is the Puerperal fever, and not ebola or lovesick fever or something. For it to be simplest, you need to assert that Ned found Lyanna in a "bed of blood" and that "bed of blood" is used in the series to describe childbirth.--Both are canon- I'm not writing out a verbatim definition of Occam's razor. Occam's Razor It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. http://en.wikipedia....i/Occam's_razor It's not an assumption she's feverish. It's not an assumption that her blood is beddy. Agreed both are canon It just requires the (small) assumption that the two are linked. By all means then link the two. The following is the general fever you are looking for, Without asserting childbirth... it is as close as you can get to a simple link between the two. The viral hemorrhagic (or haemorrhagic) fevers (VHFs) are a diverse group of animal and human illnesses that may be caused by five distinct families of RNA viruses: the families Arenaviridae, Filoviridae, Bunyaviridae,Flaviviridae, and Rhabdoviridae. All types of VHF are characterized by fever and bleeding disorders and all can progress to high fever, shock and death in many cases. Some of the VHF agents cause relatively mild illnesses, such as the Scandinavian nephropathia epidemica, while others, such as the African Ebola virus, can cause severe, life-threatening disease. The alternative would be that she gave birth (not an assumption) Canon-- Ned found Lyanna in a bed of blood-- meaning childbirth. If you had mentioned this earlier we could have avoided VHF. and then contracted a fever completely unrelated to childbirth (a larger assumption than before), with that fever killing Agreed given the childbirth... post childbirth fever makes most sense. her shortly after Ned found her. Ok again... back to AGOT pg 40 paperback... (there is no Ned found) My point was we can assume Puerperal fever is the correct answer even though it's not confirmed. I was just being a picky person and pointing out that TECHNICALLY, it could be something else. I agree with you completely... after you used the text to establish childbirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Bed of Blood and Bloody Bed are exclusively used as synonyms by the author for Birthing Bed. Are you failing to comprehend? You couldn't make the connection of my words with the intent, or did you deliberately create an issue? I comprehend completely But I also have multiquote... Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else. Do we believe you earlier? or do we believe you now? or are we supposed to believe the next thing you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I believe she is found in a bed of blood with a fever. to do so you have to add "Ned found" into AGOT chapter 4 page 40 The simplest explanation is that it is the Puerperal fever, and not ebola or lovesick fever or something. For it to be simplest, you need to assert that Ned found Lyanna in a "bed of blood" and that "bed of blood" is used in the series to describe childbirth.--Both are canon- I'm not writing out a verbatim definition of Occam's razor. Occam's Razor It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. http://en.wikipedia....i/Occam's_razor It's not an assumption she's feverish. It's not an assumption that her blood is beddy. Agreed both are canon It just requires the (small) assumption that the two are linked. By all means then link the two. The following is the general fever you are looking for, Without asserting childbirth... it is as close as you can get to a simple link between the two. The viral hemorrhagic (or haemorrhagic) fevers (VHFs) are a diverse group of animal and human illnesses that may be caused by five distinct families of RNA viruses: the families Arenaviridae, Filoviridae, Bunyaviridae,Flaviviridae, and Rhabdoviridae. All types of VHF are characterized by fever and bleeding disorders and all can progress to high fever, shock and death in many cases. Some of the VHF agents cause relatively mild illnesses, such as the Scandinavian nephropathia epidemica, while others, such as the African Ebola virus, can cause severe, life-threatening disease. The alternative would be that she gave birth (not an assumption) Canon-- Ned found Lyanna in a bed of blood-- meaning childbirth. If you had mentioned this earlier we could have avoided VHF. and then contracted a fever completely unrelated to childbirth (a larger assumption than before), with that fever killing Agreed given the childbirth... post childbirth fever makes most sense. her shortly after Ned found her. Ok again... back to AGOT pg 40 paperback... (there is no Ned found) My point was we can assume Puerperal fever is the correct answer even though it's not confirmed. I was just being a picky person and pointing out that TECHNICALLY, it could be something else. I agree with you completely... after you used the text to establish childbirth. He went to a tower, expecting her to be there, but hadn't laid eyes on her person. She was at said tower, in a bed of blood. Are you REALLY making that much of a stink about me using the word found to describe that situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Bed of Blood and Bloody Bed are exclusively used as synonyms by the author for Birthing Bed. Are you failing to comprehend? You couldn't make the connection of my words with the intent, or did you deliberately create an issue? I think he's deliberately splitting hairs between the act of birth itself and anything that comes after. So if the baby's already popped out but the woman stays in the bed for a while with birth-related complications, it doesn't count as a bloody bed anymore. :rolleyes: Or at least that's my best translation of the bold-and-monsterfont-fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I see the madness still continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I think he's deliberately splitting hairs between the act of birth itself and anything that comes after. So if the baby's already popped out but the woman stays in the bed for a while with birth-related complications, it doesn't count as a bloody bed anymore. :rolleyes: Or at least that's my best translation of the bold-and-monsterfont-fest. I'm sorry, it is and remains a birthing bed for some weeks according to our resident experts. There is also this: From the App: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy." Ned found Laynna dying at the tower of joy. We know From Ned that she died of a fever. We know from Ned's dream that she was in a bed of blood, a birthing bed. It is not a great leap of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I'm sorry, it is and remains a birthing bed for some weeks according to our resident experts. There is also this: From the App: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy." Ned found Laynna dying at the tower of joy. We know From Ned that she died of a fever. We know from Ned's dream that she was in a bed of blood, a birthing bed. It is not a great leap of logic. GODS BLESS YOU. :bowdown: please tell me this is now at an end?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Based on my online research, if Lyanna died of puerperal fever (and we cannot be 100% certain of this, but the evidence is strong), the fever starts "within 3 days" of giving birth. It is caused an infection from the birthing process itself, so no fever would be found at the time of birth, as the infection only sets in as a result of the birth (exposure of the birth canal during the birthing process). So if Ned found Lyanna with a fever in a "bed of blood" the bed of blood CANNOT be her actually birthing bed because she would not have a fever at the time of birth. It would be a metaphor for the fact that she is still bedridden as a result of the birth and lying a blood because the puerperal fever causes her to keep bleeding. Of course, we cannot know any of this unless and until GRRM reveals it. Maybe she caught a different fever/infection prior to giving birth which weakened her enough so that the birthing process killed her. But the best evidence we have is that when Ned found Lyanna in her "bed of blood" and she died, she had given birth 3-10 days prior. We know that at the time that she died she had a fever and that there is a smell of blood--which likely is the same blood being referred to when Ned later refers to the "bed of blood" when recalling the showdown. The most natural interpretation of the evidence, thus suggests that Lyanna gave birth 3-10 days prior to the showdown. Might GRRM write the events differently--of course--but the best evidence it that it happened this way. I am not sure that it really makes a difference in the ultimate plot, however, whether Lyanna died the day of the showdown or 3-10 days later--why would this difference even matter? Based on my online research, if Lyanna died of puerperal fever (and we cannot be 100% certain of this, but the evidence is strong), the fever starts "within 3 days" of giving birth. It is caused an infection from the birthing process itself, so no fever would be found at the time of birth, as the infection only sets in as a result of the birth (exposure of the birth canal during the birthing process). So if Ned found Lyanna with a fever in a "bed of blood" the bed of blood CANNOT be her actually birthing bed because she would not have a fever at the time of birth. It would be a metaphor for the fact that she is still bedridden as a result of the birth and lying a blood because the puerperal fever causes her to keep bleeding That is because you searched Fevers after Childbirth--- Alter your search to Childbirth and Fever... different results entirely--http://www.birth.com.au/fever-in-labour/about-fevers#.U8beCfl_vT8 A normal body temperature usually falls somewhere between 36.5 and 37.0oCelsius. The hard work of labour can naturally increase the woman's temperature up to about 37.5o Celsius, at various times throughout her labour, causing no problems. Sometimes her temperature can rise above 37.5 to about 38.0o Celsius, possibly indicating that she is dehydrated, and needs some fluids, this is often referred to as a 'low grade temp'. A fever above 38o Celsius can possibly indicate an infection is developing, which may prompt your caregiver to consider administering antibiotics during the labour, and possibly for a short period after the birth. Infections for women in labour normally originate in the vaginal area, uterus or the urinary tract (or bladder). An infection can occasionally be caused by another illness the woman has, (such as the flu or a viral infection), totally unrelated to the pregnancy. Developing an infection. A fever above 38o Celsius could indicate an infection in the labouring woman. This could be due to an infection in the membranes, or amniotic fluid, as a consequence of the waters being broken for a prolonged period of time (from 24 to 36 hours or more), and sometimes in combination with too many internal vaginal examinations. The membranes (or sac) act as a barrier. Once this barrier is removed, it is wise to avoid vaginal examinations until the labour starts, and keep them to a minimum (every 4 hours or more) once the labour is established (unless there are complications). Many caregivers advise inducing the labour once the waters break. However, this need not necessarily be the case. One study showed no advantage in inducing labour in less then 32 hours to prevent a baby becoming unwell due to an infection. The organism most responsible for causing an infection of the uterus (or amniotic fluid) is group B streptococcus. Often women who test positive to this bacterium are treated with antibiotics to prevent any potential infection. You may wish to read more on these in Group B Strep and waters breaking, no labour. We know that at the time that she died she had a fever and that there is a smell of blood--which likely is the same blood being referred to when Ned later refers to the "bed of blood" when recalling the showdown. Bed of blood is child birth... I am not sure that it really makes a difference in the ultimate plot, however, whether Lyanna died the day of the showdown or 3-10 days later--why would this difference even matter? If you hold that it makes no difference. I will agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't even know what is been discussed here any more... Can we go back to make fun of the KG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 GODS BLESS YOU. :bowdown: please tell me this is now at an end?! DON'T SAY THAT. YOU'LL JINX IT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 GODS BLESS YOU. :bowdown: please tell me this is now at an end?! We're up to page 9 already too, and it would suck if this madness took up the entire thread. I think we were on to something intriguing a few pages back about the possibility that the birth coincided exactly with the Sack and corresponds to the "two kings to wake the dragon" thing. It can't be mathematically proven and I won't even try, but I found it metaphysically interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 We're up to page 9 already too, and it would suck if this madness took up the entire thread. I think we were on to something intriguing a few pages back about the possibility that the birth coincided exactly with the Sack and corresponds to the "two kings to wake the dragon" thing. It can't be mathematically proven and I won't even try, but I found it metaphysically interesting. Yes, I find the metaphysics of that possibility way more interesting. Mathematically potentially hard to prove, but from a literary standpoint and mythic standpoint, very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 He went to a tower, expecting her to be there, but hadn't laid eyes on her person. She was at said tower, in a bed of blood. Are you REALLY making that much of a stink about me using the word found to describe that situation? I am not making a stink of the word "found" or of "went" or "expect" or "laid eyes on" (which are also not on the page.) I believe the non stinky term on page 40 AGOT paperback.... is "was with" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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