Jump to content

R+L=J v. 88


Stubby

Recommended Posts

I am not making a stink of the word "found" or of "went" or "expect" or "laid eyes on" (which are also not on the page.)

I believe the non stinky term on page 40 AGOT paperback.... is "was with"

Which says nothing about bed of blood (and of course it wouldn't. He was talking to Robert, who he's keeping a secret from).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see the madness still continues.

Unfortunately yes. I have decided that the only thing worse than someone who doesn't believe in R+L=J is someone who believes in it and tries to pull apart the theory and can't even do a good job of it.

I don't even know what is been discussed here any more...

Can we go back to make fun of the KG?

I wish, but didn't you see the red, big font at the beginning of the thread. I believe that what we were doing was substantial. We were proving how ridiculous it would have been for their to be no servants in a very funny manner and maybe it went on for too long. But I miss it too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, it is and remains a birthing bed for some weeks according to our resident experts. There is also this: From the App: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy."

Ned found Laynna dying at the tower of joy. We know From Ned that she died of a fever. We know from Ned's dream that she was in a bed of blood, a birthing bed. It is not a great leap of logic.

Do you mean not you?

Bed of Blood is defined as "childbirth", in story. It refers to nothing else.

What does tha App have to say about bed of blood?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What does tha App have to say about bed of blood?

The app says Ned found her dying. That's canon. Is there any possible chance this could end now? The quote from MntLion pretty much put this to rest. Jon was born before the showdown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact what the fuck the KGs were doing at ToJ?


Did Rhaegar seriously believe that 3 men were enough to protect Lyanna?


What's the point of not running away/moving when your king is already dead and you know people are gonna come to get Lyanna back?


Rhaegar was a fool, with Dayne,Whent and Hightower on his side he could have won at the Triden instead he left them at ToJ absolutely were they where doing absolutely nothing.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact what the fuck the KGs were doing at ToJ?

Did Rhaegar seriously believe that 3 men were enough to protect Lyanna?

What's the point of not running away/moving when your king is already dead and you know people are gonna come to get Lyanna back?

Rhaegar was a fool, with Dayne,Whent and Hightower on his side he could have won at the Triden instead he left them at ToJ absolutely were they where doing absolutely nothing.

Except protecting who he believed to be the prince that was promised?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which says nothing about bed of blood (and of course it wouldn't. He was talking to Robert, who he's keeping a secret from).

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---AGOT chapter 39

I apologize for not including that as a reference....

He was remembering... Chapter 4 is Eddard... we get to see what he is thinking...

The "bed of blood" follows the ToJ

Lyanna's death comes later..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am unfollowing the thread. Please, let me know when the subject finally switches to something reasonable, this troll-feeding isn't even funny.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

In fact what the fuck the KGs were doing at ToJ?

Did Rhaegar seriously believe that 3 men were enough to protect Lyanna?

What's the point of not running away/moving when your king is already dead and you know people are gonna come to get Lyanna back?

Rhaegar was a fool, with Dayne,Whent and Hightower on his side he could have won at the Triden instead he left them at ToJ absolutely were they where doing absolutely nothing.

The ToJ is in the mountains and isolated. No one knew they were there except for (probably) loyalists, like the Dayne family. It's a very remote part of Dorne. They were safe for quite a long time. And if no one told Ned where they were (probably Ashara Dayne) then who knows when he would have found them.

They were protecting Rhaegar's wife and his unborn child.

They could not move because Lyanna was very VERY pregnant and you do not put a pregnant girl on a horse and ride hard away if you want mother and child to live, which they obviously wanted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ToJ is in the mountains and isolated. No one knew they were there except for (probably) loyalists, like the Dayne family. It's a very remote part of Dorne. They were safe for quite a long time. And if no one told Ned where they were (probably Ashara Dayne) then who knows when he would have found them.

They were protecting Rhaegar's wife and his unborn child.

They could not move because Lyanna was very VERY pregnant and you do not put a pregnant girl on a horse and ride hard away if you want mother and child to live, which they obviously wanted.

This, and he wouldn't really have won at the Trident by just adding three more guys to a huge battle, IMO. They're overestimating themselves in the dream-speech. They're of much more use where they are. ETA: we have other mentions in the books, too, of mountain passes being defensible by small groups of men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how do you think lyanna felt when she saw Ned? On one side she must've been glad, but this also meant that Rhaegar was definitely dead, and that Jon was in danger. This could have been what made her pass away, as she lost a bit of her will to live, considering her father, elder brother, and husband were dead


Link to comment
Share on other sites

how do you think lyanna felt when she saw Ned? On one side she must've been glad, but this also meant that Rhaegar was definitely dead, and that Jon was in danger. This could have been what made her pass away, as she lost a bit of her will to live, considering her father, elder brother, and husband were dead

I think part of her was very relieved. She probably knew she was dying; she knew Rhaegar was dead and Robert was being crowned. Her son is in danger, but she knows that her brother Ned will make promises and more importantly, keep them.

ETA: welcome to the forums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The app says Ned found her dying. That's canon. Is there any possible chance this could end now? The quote from MntLion pretty much put this to rest. Jon was born before the showdown.

That is a paraphrase of an app without a link.

It also did not say what the App says "Bed of Blood" means

MtnLion has 2 different versions of Bed of Blood.....

I can believe the first.... or the second....

I prefer to ask for the source....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except protecting who he believed to be the prince that was promised?

3 men cannot protect anyone.

The ToJ is in the mountains and isolated. No one knew they were there except for (probably) loyalists, like the Dayne family. It's a very remote part of Dorne. They were safe for quite a long time. And if no one told Ned where they were (probably Ashara Dayne) then who knows when he would have found them.

And that's even worse why do you keep 3 of the best swords in Westeros at TOJ where it's safe when they could have changed everything at the Trident.

If Dayne went to the Trident he would have slained Robert Baratheon.

They were protecting Rhaegar's wife and his unborn child.

Which is absolutely stupid, 3 men can't protect anyone they should have knew, if the enemy came to TOJ they would have been outnumbered anyway, there were no need to stay there instead of going to battle with Rhaegar.

They could not move because Lyanna was very VERY pregnant and you do not put a pregnant girl on a horse and ride hard away if you want mother and child to live, which they obviously wanted.

Lyanna does not need to leave the ToJ, none of the knights were helping them with the birth of her child as far as I know so yea they were useless just staying there and "protecting" her from nothing and then dying like idiots when Ned Stark came with 7 men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that's even worse why do you keep 3 of the best swords in Westeros at TOJ where it's safe when they could have changed everything at the Trident.

If Dayne went to the Trident he would have slained Robert Baratheon.

So 3 men can't protect anyone but the three of them at the Trident would have made all the difference in the world?

Lyanna does not need to leave the ToJ, none of the knights were helping them with the birth of her child as far as I know so yea they were useless just staying there and "protecting" her from nothing and then dying like idiots when Ned Stark came with 7 men

So they were protecting her from nothing but if the enemy had found them they would have been outnumbered? So better that they leave? And even though they were outnumbered, they still took down 5 of the 7 that came with Ned.

Once word reaches them that Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon are dead Jon is the King. They are the Kingsguard. They do not flee or leave their King.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So 3 men can't protect anyone but the three of them at the Trident would have made all the difference in the world?

Well yes since at the trident the biggest reason why the rebels won is that Robert slained Rhaegar in single combat.

Everything was decided by this.

With Dayne on his side Rhaegar would have been safe.

So they were protecting her from nothing but if the enemy had found them they would have been outnumbered?

They were protecting her from nothing until the rebellion was over and Ned came to rescue his sister.

They could have left the ToJ with Rhaegar no one knew where Lyanna was hidden.

The KGs were extremely lucky, Ned only came with 6 men which is not a lot, and they still all died in the end, making my point even more relevant since they failed to their duty.

Once word reaches them that Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon are dead Jon is the King. They are the Kingsguard. They do not flee or leave their King.

I am not saying they shouldn't have protected Jon after his birth, i'm saying they shouldn't have protected Lyanna when there was no danger, they probably considered Rhaegar as their king, coming with him to the Trident was their duty, but of course Rhaegar probably told them to stay with Lyanna because he was in love and cared too much for her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Dayne on his side Rhaegar would have been safe.

There was a recent thread about this very thing; seems like most people disagree. Robert would have slain Dayne.

They were protecting her from nothing until the rebellion was over and Ned came to rescue his sister.

They were keeping her safe until the baby was born and Rhaegar could take the next part of his plan, which was probably getting Aerys off the throne without a civil war. Robert's Rebellion was an unfortunate consequence. Once she was there, pregnant, you cannot leave her alone without some sort of protection.

The KGs were extremely lucky, Ned only came with 6 men which is not a lot, and they still all died in the end, making my point even more relevant since they failed to their duty.

Sure they were lucky. But Rhaegar thinks he's coming back from the Trident. These are men he trusts. These are men who are loyal and have sworn to him. He can't just leave her with household guards. Who knows if they will turn?

I am not saying they shouldn't have protected Jon after his birth, i'm saying they shouldn't have protected Lyanna when there was no danger, they probably considered Rhaegar as their king, coming with him to the Trident was their duty, but of course Rhaegar probably told them to stay with Lyanna because he was in love and cared too much for her.

Why protect Jon after his birth if there is not danger when he's still inside Lyanna? Does protection of a prince only begin when he's born? If you don't protect Lyanna then he might not be born at all, thus you're derelict in your duties. Protecting Lyanna IS protecting Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well yes since at the trident the biggest reason why the rebels won is that Robert slained Rhaegar in single combat.

Everything was decided by this.

With Dayne on his side Rhaegar would have been safe.

They were protecting her from nothing until the rebellion was over and Ned came to rescue his sister.

They could have left the ToJ with Rhaegar no one knew where Lyanna was hidden.

The KGs were extremely lucky, Ned only came with 6 men which is not a lot, and they still all died in the end, making my point even more relevant since they failed to their duty.

I am not saying they shouldn't have protected Jon after his birth, i'm saying they shouldn't have protected Lyanna when there was no danger, they probably considered Rhaegar as their king, coming with him to the Trident was their duty, but of course Rhaegar probably told them to stay with Lyanna because he was in love and cared too much for her.

Rhaegar was not king at any point, since he predeceased his father.

It's a total crapshoot whether 3 guys could turn the tide of a big battle. Much easier for 3 guys to make a difference fighting a small party in a mountain pass. And the KG almost won--they killed all but 2 of the 7, and Howland Reed saved Ned's life at the last second in some way we don't know yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She was pregnant when she left King's Landing even if she didn't know at the time that she was pregnant. And given how far along she was (read: not very much, at all), she in all likelihood would not have known at the time. However, because she did give birth to Dany 9 months after leaving, in hindsight, we know (and people in-story know) that she must have been pregnant when she left.

I'm sorry but I really don't see what is so bloody hard to get about this. You're conflating being pregnant with knowing that you're pregnant. They're not synonymous.

You might want to put that all in caps, because I don't think he's going for it. :leaving:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar was not king at any point, since he predeceased his father.

In an interview someone asked him why someone as noble as Dayne was still supporting the mad king and GRRM answered "Well keep reading".

Dayne probably betrayed Aerys for Rhaegar.

There was a recent thread about this very thing; seems like most people disagree. Robert would have slain Dayne.

No he would not, based on hype Dayne is a better fighter than Robert and well he is armed with the best weapon in the seven kingdoms.

In the worst case Dayne + Rhaegar would still be enough to make a quick work of Bob Baratheon.

They were keeping her safe until the baby was born

And this is stupid.

Why do they need 3 kingsguard to keep her safe until the baby is born? Who know the location? Why couldn't they take Lyanna in Dragonstone or even at KGs? In the worst case at Starfall.

You do not say to 3 of the finest sword in westeros to protect Lyanna when there's absolutely no danger near.

Rhaegar killed himself and his kingsguard because he was a fool.

Sure they were lucky. But Rhaegar thinks he's coming back from the Trident. These are men he trusts. These are men who are loyal and have sworn to him. He can't just leave her with household guards. Who knows if they will turn?

He can leave her with 1 kingsguard, he can leave her with none in fact, the Kingsguard couldn't really help Lyanna at anything, i'm sure the midwife was enough to keep Lyanna alive.

Why protect Jon after his birth if there is not danger when he's still inside Lyanna? Does protection of a prince only begin when he's born? If you don't protect Lyanna then he might not be born at all, thus you're derelict in your duties. Protecting Lyanna IS protecting Jon.

Your first duty is to protect your king not his pregnant wife.

And if someone find their location then 3 men wouldn't be enough to protect them, we saw how it ended against Ned Stark and his 6 men, the KGs were powerless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...