R+L=J v. 88

[stateofdissipation]

3 men cannot protect anyone.

And that's even worse why do you keep 3 of the best swords in Westeros at TOJ where it's safe when they could have changed everything at the Trident.

If Dayne went to the Trident he would have slained Robert Baratheon.

Which is absolutely stupid, 3 men can't protect anyone they should have knew, if the enemy came to TOJ they would have been outnumbered anyway, there were no need to stay there instead of going to battle with Rhaegar.

Lyanna does not need to leave the ToJ, none of the knights were helping them with the birth of her child as far as I know so yea they were useless just staying there and "protecting" her from nothing and then dying like idiots when Ned Stark came with 7 men.

There are many logical problems associated with the KG at the ToJ...

You will find few answere here...

The main problem is: Fallacy of the single cause (causal oversimplification) – it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.

The only relatively safe thing to say of the KG's presence at the ToJ is "they had their reasons"

A duty to protect the royal family---sufficient

and order from the king---sufficient

a secret of the king---sufficient

a vow (other than the above) they had taken---sufficient

stuck there between the Tyrell host and the Martells--sufficient.

one can't include a duty to protect the king--until after news of the sack reaches the ToJ (among other things)--sufficient

[sabrecmc]

I like to think that the 3 Kingsguard had a plan to get Lyanna and baby to safety once the baby was born. Lyanna couldn't travel quickly while that pregnant (hey, all those warnings about riding roller coasters mean something!). In my head canon, Elia (and maybe Ashara) is in on this whole thing and there is some plan afoot to get Lyanna and baby safely to Prince Doran or Oberyn while Rhaegar sorts out KL. I can't believe the plan was just to hang out with just 3 guards at the ToJ until whenever. They needed to be secretive about it and able to move quickly, so the three of them plus Wylla for a wetnurse and to help with the baby makes sense. But then Lyanna is too sick to move and they can't put the plan in motion. Then Ned arrives and they don't have much of a choice but to fight.

That is total fanfic, I know. But it is the only way I've been able to make sense of what 3 knights, however good they are, are doing guarding a king alone.

[BearQueen87]

No he would not, based on hype Dayne is a better fighter than Robert and well he is armed with the best weapon in the seven kingdoms.

Dayne is a better knight and a better tourney fighter. But in a hand to hand combat...it's a toss up IMO.

Why do they need 3 kingsguard to keep her safe until the baby is born? Who know the location? Why couldn't they take Lyanna in Dragonstone or even at KGs? In the worst case at Starfall.

You do not say to 3 of the finest sword in westeros to protect Lyanna when there's absolutely no danger near.

Rhaegar killed himself and his kingsguard because he was a fool.

Well, Hightower wasn't part of the plan originally. He came down on order from Aerys to find Rhaegar. And then stayed.We don't know exactly why. But there is a thought that Rhaegar went to Storm's End with Whent and Dayne, forcing Hightower to stay behind and guard Lyanna (she's married and carrying Rhaegar's child) and then Whent and Dayne come back and the three stay there; it wasn't too much longer that Rhegar, Aerys, and Aegon die.

Who said there was absolutely not danger? Some people knew. They had to, because someone told Ned.

I also never said that Rhaegar wasn't a bit of a fool. Of corse he was. He believed he was coming back. He wasn't so good with the planning and common sense.

He can leave her with 1 kingsguard, he can leave her with none in fact, the Kingsguard couldn't really help Lyanna at anything, i'm sure the midwife was enough to keep Lyanna alive.

The midwife can, most likely, not wield a sword.

Your first duty is to protect your king not his pregnant wife.

And if someone find their location then 3 men wouldn't be enough to protect them, we saw how it ended against Ned Stark and his 6 men, the KGs were powerless.

The baby she's carrying is your future king, not to mention the savior of the world, or so sayeth Rhaegar Targaryen, your king.

They have a duty to the dynasty.

And these weren't just 3 men, as you keep pointing out. These are the three incredible knight of the KG, sworn to defend Rhaegar and his progeny.

[PrettyPig]

It seems to me that you are making some bad assumptions about Jon's conception birth. Yes, according to canon, Ned's and Jon Arryn's wedding occur after the Battle of the Bells. And, I personally have Lyann missing for four or so months when ned marries, Robb is conceived. I am pretty sure that Lyanna and Rhaegar took their time to plan, and that Rhaegar may have resisted Lyanna's plot.

I wasn't trying to assume anything about Jon or Robb's conception/birth....just working backwards using the dates provided in the timeline, which assumes that Robb is slightly older than Jon.

This is like one of those horrible "solve for X" problems from Algebra II that still plague my nightmares.

1) Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany.

2) Dany was born 9 months after the fall of KL.

3) KL's fall marked the end of the Rebellion.

4) The Rebellion lasted ~1 year.

5) Ned and Cat married and conceived Robb part-way through the Rebellion.

6) Ned was away from Cat for ~1 year.

7) The last months of Ned's ~1 year absence were spent returning from Dorne after the Rebellion.

8) Robb and Jon were both infants when he returned.

9) Robb is older than Jon.

Solve: What is Robb's favorite color?

[stateofdissipation]

I like to think that the 3 Kingsguard had a plan to get Lyanna and baby to safety once the baby was born. Lyanna couldn't travel quickly while that pregnant (hey, all those warnings about riding roller coasters mean something!). In my head canon, Elia (and maybe Ashara) is in on this whole thing and there is some plan afoot to get Lyanna and baby safely to Prince Doran or Oberyn while Rhaegar sorts out KL. I can't believe the plan was just to hang out with just 3 guards at the ToJ until whenever. They needed to be secretive about it and able to move quickly, so the three of them plus Wylla for a wetnurse and to help with the baby makes sense. But then Lyanna is too sick to move and they can't put the plan in motion. Then Ned arrives and they don't have much of a choice but to fight.

That is total fanfic, I know. But it is the only way I've been able to make sense of what 3 knights, however good they are, are doing guarding a king alone.

That is cool..

I think getting Rhaegar's second wife to the safety of his first wife's family part could use a little work though.

I do agree that Rhaegar did not plan to die... but rather to sort things out in KL and send for them.

Rhaegar probably had the long term plan.. when he died it went in the crapper.

They were kind of stuck there after that... Kind of like dogs that get left beside the road waiting for their owner to comeback.

By the time they heard of the sack, they were stuck between the 1st wife's family and the Tyrells. (If they knew about the sack before the SE ended, they should have called on their loyal vassals (still fighting the rebels) for support.)--If they decided to trust nobody and keep it a secret, they should have been fleeing to exile--

Just some random thoughts

[BearQueen87]

.

Solve: What is Robb's favorite color?

Grey ;)

[PrettyPig]

Grey ;)

WOMP womp WOMP.....

[Prince of the North]

I wasn't trying to assume anything about Jon or Robb's conception/birth....just working backwards using the dates provided in the timeline, which assumes that Robb is slightly older than Jon.

This is like one of those horrible "solve for X" problems from Algebra II that still plague my nightmares.

1) Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany.

2) Dany was born 9 months after the fall of KL.

3) KL's fall marked the end of the Rebellion.

4) The Rebellion lasted ~1 year.

5) Ned and Cat married and conceived Robb part-way through the Rebellion.

6) Ned was away from Cat for ~1 year.

7) The last months of Ned's ~1 year absence were spent returning from Dorne after the Rebellion.

8) Robb and Jon were both infants when he returned.

9) Robb is older than Jon.

Solve: What is Robb's favorite color?

The answer is "Air", of course! :smug:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dayne probably betrayed Aerys for Rhaegar.

"Betrayal" isn't the word.

There is more chances that Rhaegar was plotting to take down Aerys and the KG was on board (minus Barristan and Jaime, and maybe one more).

[BearQueen87]

"Betrayal" isn't the word.

There is more chances that Rhaegar was plotting to take down Aerys and the KG was on board (minus Barristan and Jaime, and maybe one more).

Yeah I don't think betrayal is the right word either. They wanted to quietly remove him from power because of his whole "burning is fun!" mentality. There was a plot, but I think it was supposed to a bloodless one.

[stateofdissipation]

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood...AGOT 39

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied...AGOT 61

Since nobody came up with the App or a quote for "Bed of blood"---

Further note..

In chapter 39 Lyanna is screaming--interrupted dream sequence.. SSM warns of taking it as accurate

In chapter 4 Lyanna's voice is barely a whisper

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah I don't think betrayal is the right word either. They wanted to quietly remove him from power because of his whole "burning is fun!" mentality. There was a plot, but I think it was supposed to a bloodless one.

It definitely was. When Rhaegar is talking to Jaime he speaks about how he still worries about his father's welfare. You don't say that about the man you are considering to kill. Besides, even if he didn't care about his father at all, killing him would be the WORST political manoeuvre to start a ruling.

As soon as Rhaegar talked about a Great Council, it's almost implied that it meant that Aerys needed to go peacefully and with the laws supporting him. Otherwise, with his death, Rhaegar is automatically the King.

[BearQueen87]

It definitely was. When Rhaegar is talking to Jaime he speaks about how he still worries about his father's welfare. You don't say that about the man you are considering to kill. Besides, even if he didn't care about his father at all, killing him would be the WORST political manoeuvre to start a ruling.

As soon as Rhaegar talked about a Great Council, it's almost implied that it meant that Aerys needed to go peacefully and with the laws supporting him. Otherwise, with his death, Rhaegar is automatically the King.

It may have been a small part why he married Lyanna. He could still have Jon, the son of ice and fire, without marrying her. But marrying her and then presenting her as a co-queen(?) and their baby as one of the 3 heads of the dragon helps any northern protests; especially since Lord Stark had such Southron ambitions, if he says he's okay with it, his banner-men follow.

[WinterNathanielle]

Wouldn't it be logical that the 3 KL was there to protect Jon(assuming he is Rhaegar's son)?

Timeline: Trident->sack of KL->ToJ

First, Rhaegar died at the Trident (crown prince) then Aerys(king) then Aegon(apparent king since his crown prince father died before his king grandfather) at the sack of KL.--also supports two kings wake the dragon?

Then the king apparent then will be Jon(not sure but I have read before that even bastards come first before uncles in Targaryen lines? So as to say, legal or not, Jon is the apparent king then) Thus, the KG's.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wouldn't it be logical that the 3 KL was there to protect Jon(assuming he is Rhaegar's son)?

Yep, that's the general idea here. It's especially Hightowers presence that is telling.

MtnLion has made a beautiful analysis of the fever dream conversation Ned and the KG have. I'm on phone now, unable to find the link. Perhaps someone can help with that?

It is nowhere stated, btw, that legitimized bastards come before their uncle(s) in the line of succession (ublegitimized bastards definitly cannot inherit).

[Ygritte]

Dayne is a better knight and a better tourney fighter. But in a hand to hand combat...it's a toss up IMO.

This. People make a lot of who would beat whom in a fight, in this and other threads, but it's one thing to have a controlled fight with etiquette rules on a prepared field (tourney) and quite another to have a chaotic fight with lots of other people around and no rules and things like rocks and mud in the way (war). I think Rhaegar was a better tourney fighter than Robert too, IIRC. Sure, maybe Dayne could have beaten Robert--or maybe his horse stumbles on a rock and he gets trampled, or some other random fighter kills him, or any number of other things. Battle's a mess, not a predictable game.

[Ygritte]

Yep, that's the general idea here. It's especially Hightowers presence that is telling.

MtnLion has made a beautiful analysis of the fever dream conversation Ned and the KG have. I'm on phone now, unable to find the link. Perhaps someone can help with that?

It is nowhere stated, btw, that legitimized bastards come before their uncle(s) in the line of succession (ublegitimized bastards definitly cannot inherit).

It's in MtnLion's sig. And it's awesome. :wub:

[BearQueen87]

Yep, that's the general idea here. It's especially Hightowers presence that is telling.

MtnLion has made a beautiful analysis of the fever dream conversation Ned and the KG have. I'm on phone now, unable to find the link. Perhaps someone can help with that?

It is nowhere stated, btw, that legitimized bastards come before their uncle(s) in the line of succession (ublegitimized bastards definitly cannot inherit).

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109443-rlj-v-81/page-7#entry5779286

Behold MntLion's brilliance

[stateofdissipation]

Wouldn't it be logical that the 3 KL was there to protect Jon(assuming he is Rhaegar's son)?

Timeline: Trident->sack of KL->ToJ

First, Rhaegar died at the Trident (crown prince) then Aerys(king) then Aegon(apparent king since his crown prince father died before his king grandfather) at the sack of KL.--also supports two kings wake the dragon?

Then the king apparent then will be Jon(not sure but I have read before that even bastards come first before uncles in Targaryen lines? So as to say, legal or not, Jon is the apparent king then) Thus, the KG's.

Jon was born on or up to a month after Rhaegar's death and the sack of King's Landing.--

Assuming perfect knowledge of events..

the KG protecting the king and the heir just dropped from 4 to 1. If guarding the king was their priority-- they did not do it.

Viserys fled to DS (if Jon was not born) the KG were guarding a fetus... not the heir all three remained-- possibly leaving the heir unguarded

When KL fell, the Tyrells were still loyal to the cause and laying seige to Storm's End. If protecting the king was their first priority--they did not do it

(if secrecy was their top concern, they were protecting the king in exile--- they did not flee to exile)

Assuming no knowledge of events

The KG could not have known they were guarding the king.

and finally the argument is invalid.

A logical fallacy associated with this format of argument is referred to as affirming the consequent, which would look like this:

1. If P then Q
2. Q
3. therefore P

The argument for Kingsguard equals king present looks like this

1. If King then Kingsguard

2. Kingsguard

3. Therefore King

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's in MtnLion's sig. And it's awesome. :wub:

I'm on phone, so I can't see signatures :( and I was doubting about whether it was still in the signature, so because I couldn't check, I didn't dare say it was in there :)

It truly is a wonderful analysis.