R+L=J v. 88

[MtnLion]

:blushing:

[Stubby]

[MOD]

The bed of blood semantics issue has gone on long enough.

Points have been made and there is no point in arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Please move on.

[/MOD]

[Ser Leftwich]

Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

[BearQueen87]

Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

Don't think it has been brought up--but it's a good one!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

I think the debate is what orders they were following. Everyone seems to agree that the KG at ToJ stayed because they were fulfilling their vows. The majority view (including my own) is that initially they were following Rhaegar's orders, but once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and word got to ToJ, they stayed at ToJ rather than go to Dragonstone to guard Viserys because Jon had been born king. Others believe that they stayed at ToJ just to keep the last order they got before Rhaegar's death (or some variation). So the issue is whether they were merely continuing to perform Rhaegar's orders or whether they stayed because their "primary" duty was to guard the king and the king was at ToJ. I tend to think that the "primary" duty to have at least one KG with the king would supersede Rhaegar's pre-death orders and at least one would have tried to get to Dragonstone if Jon had not been born by the time they found out about the deaths. In the end, it probably does not matter why they stayed. The fact that they stayed at ToJ, however, is a clue to attentive readers that maybe Jon is really the legitimate son of Rhaegar (not a bastard).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the debate is what orders they were following. Everyone seems to agree that the KG at ToJ stayed because they were fulfilling their vows. The majority view (including my own) is that initially they were following Rhaegar's orders, but once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and word got to ToJ, they stayed at ToJ rather than go to Dragonstone to guard Viserys because Jon had been born king. Others believe that they stayed at ToJ just to keep the last order they got before Rhaegar's death (or some variation). So the issue is whether they were merely continuing to perform Rhaegar's orders or whether they stayed because their "primary" duty was to guard the king and the king was at ToJ. I tend to think that the "primary" duty to have at least one KG with the king would supersede Rhaegar's pre-death orders and at least one would have tried to get to Dragonstone if Jon had not been born by the time they found out about the deaths. In the end, it probably does not matter why they stayed. The fact that they stayed at ToJ, however, is a clue to attentive readers that maybe Jon is really the legitimate son of Rhaegar (not a bastard).

This is also my view.

If Jon had been a bastard, Viserys would have been the king and they would have been duty-bound to go to him. Period. But they didn't, and they still claim to be following their Kingsguard vows. The only way that makes sense is if they believed, at the time Ned approached them, that Jon was their king.

Even if you do buy that they had forsworn Aerys and gone over wholly to Rhaegar, them staying there still doesn't make sense if Jon is a bastard. If Jon is a bastard, he has no legal claim to anything. There's no reason to stay with him. Even if the three Kingsguard were in full "Rhaegar is our king, not Aerys" mode (which also doesn't fit, since they say if they'd been in King's Landing to stop Jaime, Aerys would still be king), Viserys is still the king, as Rhaegar's direct legal heir, with Aegon and Rhaenys dead. Whether they were there on behalf of Aerys's kingship or Rhaegar's, the result is still the same: If Jon were a bastard, they wouldn't, shouldn't, have been there.

[stateofdissipation]

Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356) http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

There was a decent case made earlier, that the KG died carrying out their last order.

They had missed the entire rebellion and the Targs had lost. They had failed to protect Aerys, Aegon; Rhaegar; Elia and her children. They were trapped in the Red Mountains with the Tyrells and Stark armies between them and Dragonstone. Only exile awaited them at Dragonstone. They really did not have many good options.

They refused to flee or surrender. They made no attempt to negotiate.

If they won and killed Ned they accomplished nothing. Ned and Gerald had found it and sooner or later Ned's army would have gotten around to finding it as well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356) http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

There was a decent case made earlier, that the KG died carrying out their last order.

The point is that if they knew that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead (and we know they did, based on the conversation that Ned has with them), then Viserys would have been the king and their duty would have been to protect him. The living king's safety trumps the order of a dead prince. Rhaegar's orders might be what got them there in the first place, but it's not enough to explain why they're still there. It's not even as if one or two went to Viserys and one or two stayed at the Tower. All three of them stayed at the Tower, and when Ned says Viserys is on Dragonstone, their collective response is, "Meh who gives a shit." This supposedly is their king. Alarm bells should be ringing to all but the most willfully obtuse.

[BearQueen87]

I think the debate is what orders they were following. Everyone seems to agree that the KG at ToJ stayed because they were fulfilling their vows. The majority view (including my own) is that initially they were following Rhaegar's orders, but once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and word got to ToJ, they stayed at ToJ rather than go to Dragonstone to guard Viserys because Jon had been born king. Others believe that they stayed at ToJ just to keep the last order they got before Rhaegar's death (or some variation). So the issue is whether they were merely continuing to perform Rhaegar's orders or whether they stayed because their "primary" duty was to guard the king and the king was at ToJ. I tend to think that the "primary" duty to have at least one KG with the king would supersede Rhaegar's pre-death orders and at least one would have tried to get to Dragonstone if Jon had not been born by the time they found out about the deaths. In the end, it probably does not matter why they stayed. The fact that they stayed at ToJ, however, is a clue to attentive readers that maybe Jon is really the legitimate son of Rhaegar (not a bastard).

:agree:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is also my view.

If Jon had been a bastard, Viserys would have been the king and they would have been duty-bound to go to him. Period. But they didn't, and they still claim to be following their Kingsguard vows. The only way that makes sense is if they believed, at the time Ned approached them, that Jon was their king.

Even if you do buy that they had forsworn Aerys and gone over wholly to Rhaegar, them staying there still doesn't make sense if Jon is a bastard. If Jon is a bastard, he has no legal claim to anything. There's no reason to stay with him. Even if the three Kingsguard were in full "Rhaegar is our king, not Aerys" mode (which also doesn't fit, since they say if they'd been in King's Landing to stop Jaime, Aerys would still be king), Viserys is still the king, as Rhaegar's direct legal heir, with Aegon and Rhaenys dead. Whether they were there on behalf of Aerys's kingship or Rhaegar's, the result is still the same: If Jon were a bastard, they wouldn't, shouldn't, have been there.

:agree:

... or to take a few key words from the ToJ dream:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

And btw guys, the ignore button only works if everyone refrains from quoting the sub-pontal dweller ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:agree:

... or to take a few key words from the ToJ dream:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

And btw guys, the ignore button only works if everyone refrains from quoting the sub-pontal dweller ;)

Ah yes, sorry.

And yes. That bit of conversation is a huge clue as well. Ned pretty clearly seems to be offering the men the option of getting away to Dragonstone without a fight, if they want. This blows a hole in the argument that the men wanted to get to Viserys and did think he was the king, but Dragonstone was just too difficult to get to. Also notice that no one corrected Ned when he calls Viserys "only" a prince. Shouldn't one of these hard-core Targaryen loyalists have corrected him and said, "You mean KING Viserys"?

Of course, I also think it's clear that Ned chose his words carefully to see what sort of reaction he got. I think the conversation suggests that he arrived knowing what he'd find and why, and the Kingsguard were expecting him, and the conversation was his way to suss out if the intel he'd been given was accurate.

[BearQueen87]

Of course, I also think it's clear that Ned chose his words carefully to see what sort of reaction he got. I think the conversation suggests that he arrived knowing what he'd find and why, and the Kingsguard were expecting him, and the conversation was his way to suss out if the intel he'd been given was accurate.

This raises some good questions, namely how much did Ned know. Whoever told him that Lyanna was at the ToJ (Ashara?) did they also tell him that Lyanna was carrying a child? Did they allude to a marriage? Evens something like, "nothing is what it seems Lord Stark"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This raises some good questions, namely how much did Ned know. Whoever told him that Lyanna was at the ToJ (Ashara?) did they also tell him that Lyanna was carrying a child? Did they allude to a marriage? Evens something like, "nothing is what it seems Lord Stark"

I think it was probably Ashara, yes. She's the primary one with links to both parties: She met Ned (and possibly Howland) at Harrenhal, and Arthur was her brother. The suddenness of Ned going to the Tower suggests that someone told him explicitly at a specific point in time. It's possible that after the Sack, Ashara knew Lyanna was pregnant and/or ill and wanted Ned to know where she was. Someone also had to tip off the Kingsguard about what had happened; they almost surely weren't getting regular raven mail, yet they obviously knew what had gone down on the Trident and in the capital when Ned arrived. So, someone must have filled them in.

And yeah, I think the ... sensitivity ... of the situation was also discussed. Ned took men he trusted, and a small number, especially considering that they were up against three Kingsguard. And going back to Ned's convo, it reads to me like someone who's playing coy.

[Ygritte]

This raises some good questions, namely how much did Ned know. Whoever told him that Lyanna was at the ToJ (Ashara?) did they also tell him that Lyanna was carrying a child? Did they allude to a marriage? Evens something like, "nothing is what it seems Lord Stark"

I have a couple of head-ideas I bounce around from time to time. I'm definitely getting into the idea that Ashara was the leak. And sometimes I think she might have explicitly given him info, but at other times I think she might have said something to Ned innocently, much earlier and in a completely different context, and he put two and two together. As in, maybe she made a comment once about this weird old tower near her family home that would make a great lover's nest or hideout. All of this is totally speculative, of course.

[Alia of the knife]

This raises some good questions, namely how much did Ned know. Whoever told him that Lyanna was at the ToJ (Ashara?) did they also tell him that Lyanna was carrying a child? Did they allude to a marriage? Evens something like, "nothing is what it seems Lord Stark"

That is exactly what I think happened or else why would Ned take only a few select men?

[Ser Leftwich]

This raises some good questions, namely how much did Ned know. Whoever told him that Lyanna was at the ToJ (Ashara?) did they also tell him that Lyanna was carrying a child? Did they allude to a marriage? Evens something like, "nothing is what it seems Lord Stark"

There is an idea that Ned pieced it together from information from more than one source: Ethan Glover and Ashara Dayne.

[stateofdissipation]

The point is that if they knew that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead (and we know they did, based on the conversation that Ned has with them), then Viserys would have been the king and their duty would have been to protect him. The living king's safety trumps the order of a dead prince. Rhaegar's orders might be what got them there in the first place, but it's not enough to explain why they're still there. It's not even as if one or two went to Viserys and one or two stayed at the Tower. All three of them stayed at the Tower, and when Ned says Viserys is on Dragonstone, their collective response is, "Meh who gives a shit." This supposedly is their king. Alarm bells should be ringing to all but the most willfully obtuse.

The defiance at duskendale... Aerys was without KG for several months until they found a way to rescue him.

--The Tyrell and Stark Armies stood between the KG and Viserys

Additionally, we do not know what information the KG at the ToJ had... they added nothing to what Ned had told them... other than value judgments

As is so often pointed out, Ned was the enemy of the Targaryens married in to 3 of the 4 rebelling houses. The report of Visery's location came from him.

--The response was to praise the man protecting Viserys--- Ser Willem is a good man and true...

Not discussing future plans with the enemy, not accepting the aid of the enemy, and not surrendering to the enemy and in the end fighting the enemy of the Targaryens

They fought and they died. Proof of their plans, and motivations died with them.

3 KG fell on the Trident protecting Aerys who was in King's Landing.

there is no reason why

3 KG could not fall at the ToJ protecting Viserys in Dragonstone

[BearQueen87]

I wish we knew how Ned was feeling (though we can probably guess). He's done his duty; he defended his brother, his father, his realm. He's married a woman he was never supposed to marry; he's now lord of Winterfell. All that's left is to find and rescue his sister. And then...the truth: Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, married, and she was carrying his child, gladly.

[stateofdissipation]

I wish we knew how Ned was feeling (though we can probably guess). He's done his duty; he defended his brother, his father, his realm. He's married a woman he was never supposed to marry; he's now lord of Winterfell. All that's left is to find and rescue his sister. And then...the truth: Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, married, and she was carrying his child, gladly.

Married, Lyanna got her fatther and brother killed,,,

If Rhaegar loved Lyanna and the realm bled for it.... Lyanna loved Rhaegar and the North bled for it....

What did Lyanna say..

Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it can't change a man's nature.....

How could she then claim it as a defense for her actions?

[stateofdissipation]

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

"Thou shalt"..."kill" Exodus20:13

A few key words are all I need to make my point. If the author did not think the other words were key, then why did he bother to put them there?