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R+L=J v. 88


Stubby

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This thread is like a car crash - whilst ignoring is the sane thing to do, I can't help but come back to read the troll's comments and the ensuing kerfuffle that follows. I don't know how people have the energy to expend on this person and their various incarnations, but I should thank them in that their persistence is both helping remind me of things I had forgotten and pointing out things that I'd missed.


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"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

"Thou shalt"..."kill" Exodus20:13

A few key words are all I need to make my point. If the author did not think the other words were key, then why did he bother to put them there?

Hey guys. Guess what. This Ned guy is being made hand of the king by his best friend Robert. What Robert really doesn't know is that Ned's "bastard" *wink wink* is really a Targaryen prince, who is also actually the prince that was promised. Then this character over here is Azor Ahai. There were some other's invading and some other battles and stuff, but you get the idea. Also, sex scenes. The end.

Man, sure is funny how much a full blown story with many subtle, individually inconclusive hints is SOOO much better than as few words as possible.

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A point that is often missed is the fact that "Who is Jon Snow's Mother?", was used as GRRM's test to adapt ASOIAF into GOT HBO. Book 1 of ASOIAF pretty much spells it out as Wylla within the first couple chapters.. what kind of test would that be?

Also Neds arch is about child saving, he spoke out against killing Danny and her baby and lost his position as Hand
he spoke out against the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys and almost lost his best friend
he saved Cersei's children and it ended up being his down fall
he saved Sansa, even though he had to lie and even though he dishonored himself in front of all of Kingslanding

Does it fit better that he has some bastard because he cheated?
Or that he undertook dishonoring himself, to save his new born nephew Jon?



For a straight to the point video of who is Jon Snows Mother?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo2_93Md18E

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Still? Oh well, think maybe I should do something I avoid and go into the KG a bit. I don't really support the belief that the KG always do this or always do that, as Martin has shown us that they do not always follow orders and they are very much individuals. TRP and TPATQ give us some examples of this. They don't always follow orders, they can make a choice just like anyone else. So inn truth it's better to look at what the author has given us on the members of Areys 7.

Treason, treason is a word I associate with them. This may upset some but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. Jaime is perhaps the best example of this. Even if Rhaegar is the crown prince and is his blood, Rhaegar had still planned to secretly depose his father. Aerys happens to be an extreme version of an extenuating circumstance.

Think of it like this, Jaime is a Kingslayer he knows it, he admits it, he had extenuating circumstances. It is the highest act of treason he could commit, and it's the single finest act of a KG member to date.

How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. So many vows they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. Its too much. No matter what you do, youre forsaking one vow or the other.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

What Jaime says is true and that is where choice comes in.

I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak.

And the youngest to betray all it stood for, Kingslayer.

Kingslayer, he pronounced carefully. And such a king he was! He lifted his cup. To Aerys Targaryen, the Second of His Name, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. And to the sword that opened his throat.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

When Jaime speaks of the deaths of Brandon and Rickard he says this.

After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him. That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.

I actually tend to question this statement by Jaime. It is followed shortly by this comment.

I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Loyalty of the White Bull I do not doubt, but loyal to who is a different question. If there is one KG I suspect of doing something wrong it would the Hightower. But I will get back to that.

I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.

Jaime does not take pride in much but being trained by the Sword of the morning is one of those things he does take pride. Though he sees himself as a failure to Arthur. Arthur is an interesting character, of all the KG in the main series none receive such universal accolades as Arthur.

The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.

Ned on Ser Arthur, this quote is one I am rather curious about, it's such an odd thing to say for Ned. He does not really talk like that. Between the two quotes I have often wondered if it was Dayne who slew 5 of Neds men. 5 are dead and they were Neds friends, yet the esteem for Dayne. I have often wondered if Dayne slew Hightower to defend Jon. Aerys had no problem taking hostages, Hightower may have been their as insurance, and Rhaegar left his two behind to keep things in his favor.

Now a big question is could Rhaegar have ordered the KG to do something against Aerys, or convince them to side with him. They seem very loyal to their vows after all.

Your Grace, Jaime had pleaded, let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.

Jaimes anger had risen up in his throat. I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.

Then guard the king, Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaimes shoulder. When this battles done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows. Bantam Books, 2005. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Well here we see Rhaegar denying Jaime's request, and Darry snapping at him about obeying. But Rhaegar says something else and Darry is right there to here it. He is going to call a council to make changes, changes he had planned to make awhile ago. It's been said that Rhaegar had planned to depose his father and that's why they held the ToHH, well that is treason and Darry is there to here it and he makes no move to arrest Rhaegar. So it can be assumed that multiple members of the KG are making choices about who they are siding with. It is not to Aerys Jaime went with his request but to Rhaegar.

One of the few moments we get an interaction with Arthur Dayne.

When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. All knights must bleed, Jaime, Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. Blood is the seal of our devotion. With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaimes tunic, so he bled anew.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows. Bantam Books, 2005. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Devotion, we don't here much of devotion in the books, but Arthur makes a poignant statement to Jaime. Blood is the seal of their devotion. And of course their is the very clever use of Dawn, but at very least we are getting some perspective on who Arthur was, what he believed.

Ill hack the bloody book to pieces before Ill fill it full of lies. Yet if he would not lie, what could he write but truth?

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows. Bantam Books, 2005. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright..

What shall we do now, my lady?

Our duty. Catelyns face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Neds face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Knights die in battle, Catelyn reminded her.

Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. As ladies die in childbed.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

The chapter I got this from and clearly I am posting it for a reason, draws a strange parallel to the chapter in which Jaime recalls Rhaegar marching to war, in fact in many ways they mirror.

Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jons mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

I posted that because of this next quote from Cat about secrets.

Until what? Foolish woman, will holding it secret in your heart make it any less true? If you never tell, never speak of it, will it become only a dream, less than a dream, a nightmare half-remembered? Oh, if only the gods would be so good.

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. A Clash of Kings. Bantam Books, 1999. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Does that quote remind anyone of a character? A character who perhaps struggled with secrets and nightmares.

Sometimes to find answers in the books we need to search in unexpected places.

Anyway just wanted to make a point of showing some of the possible examples Martin may be giving about events in and around the ToJ during the rebellion. An attempt to find some information on what Members of the KG were like and some choice they seemed to be making. Many of the quotes are used heavily and others not so much.

If anyone is wondering why I don't trust Hightower there is a pretty simple explanation. Hightower was not one of Rhaegars guys, granted who could of switched sides, but it's more about the moment. Martin writes about the White Bull being loyal and much better than Jaime. Though he reveals a mystery about Jaime right after that. At the time nobody new that Jaime had a fine act, no he was pretty much universally hated. I remember the first time I read it I was like what the hell did Jaime do that could be considered a fine act. Much later on we find out Jaime had an extremely fine act and it was not done in loyalty but an act of treason. So if Jaime's act of treason can be fine act couldn't Hightowers Loyalty not be, could there be something wrong in there? It appears as a comparison so I just continue the comparison. Though I have no hard evidence other than the way it was written.

But it would help to explain the admiration Ned had for Arthur. The Hightowers are a dangerous and powerful family and it would not be the first shady move on their part. Who knows what Aerys told Hightower to do. Whent and Dayne are with Rhaegar from the beginning but Hightower is another matter. We don't know what went down in the battle and I can believe one excellent knight all in White, and maybe even two, but with Martin and his comments about heroes in all white, I figure one of them had to have other ideas. It would also add a twist and Martin likes to twist things.

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I don't think it was well known. Barristan says

He seems to have been a very private and melancholy sort of chap.

The crown prince often making the long journey to the same ruined place will not have gone unnoticed in the realm. Don't you think?

eta: Still It's not much of an argument for Ned knowing about it at the time of him leaving Storm's End

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Wouldn't it be logical that the 3 KL was there to protect Jon(assuming he is Rhaegar's son)?

Timeline: Trident->sack of KL->ToJ

First, Rhaegar died at the Trident (crown prince) then Aerys(king) then Aegon(apparent king since his crown prince father died before his king grandfather) at the sack of KL.--also supports two kings wake the dragon?

Then the king apparent then will be Jon(not sure but I have read before that even bastards come first before uncles in Targaryen lines? So as to say, legal or not, Jon is the apparent king then) Thus, the KG's.

Welcome to the forum WinterNathanielle!

Full ACK

... except I doubt there is such a term king apparent corresponding to heir apparent... There is a philosophic discussion about King-or-Queen particles* that need to travel with a speed faster than light, when a king dies in PTerry's works somewhere...

* kingons, queenons

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Hey @RodrikHarlaw, welcome to the forum!

A point that is often missed is the fact that "Who is Jon Snow's Mother?", was used as GRRM's test to adapt ASOIAF into GOT HBO. Book 1 of ASOIAF pretty much spells it out as Wylla within the first couple chapters.. what kind of test would that be?

Also Neds arch is about child saving, he spoke out against killing Danny and her baby and lost his position as Hand
he spoke out against the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys and almost lost his best friend
he saved Cersei's children and it ended up being his down fall
he saved Sansa, even though he had to lie and even though he dishonored himself in front of all of Kingslanding

Does it fit better that he has some bastard because he cheated?
Or that he undertook dishonoring himself, to save his new born nephew Jon?



For a straight to the point video of who is Jon Snows Mother?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo2_93Md18E

Well done. Is that you reading? ;)

There's also this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHqzFwodZqQ that was featured by the Huffington Post. It is faster paced and tightly structured. Give it a try!

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And where would Ned have gotten a chance to speak to Ashara. Ashara wasn't stuck at Starfall, but it seems she wasn't in KL either.

Where would Ned have had a chance to speak to her?

"On the way" would be the answer. Somewhere in summertime. Funny that there's no mention in the text of Ashara being a traveller. There is the SSM, that implies she might have been here or there, on horseback or on a boat. I am afraid that's all that I've got.

Others have mentioned she had friends at court, especially Princess Elia. Others have speculated - and so have I - that Elia was part of (or at least in the know of) all of Rhaegar's plans. So there might have been an information source. Not in the text, though.

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Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

That one has been particularly hard to find. Here's the source of the SSM: http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

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Has this SSM been mentioned lately:

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

Seems like it is relevant to the current line of discussion as to why the KG was at the ToJ to begin with.

Yes, to begin with. And it's true, if he gave them an order, they would obey it, because when he gives the order the king is protected by other KG (as far as they know, anyway) and therefore they are free to do other things. When Ned arrives at the TOJ, however, they are the only KG still alive and loyal to the Targs. If Viserys is king (which he would be, if the baby in that tower is a bastard), then they should and would have gone to him. Protecting the king is more important than following the orders of the dead crown prince (and even if you can argue the opposite regarding Dayne and Whent, you simply cannot do it with Hightower). If they stayed at that tower, that means the king was there.

To put it simply: Rhaegar's orders was why they were there at first, but they do not explain why they are still there when Ned arrives. GRRM didn't lie, he just answered the question he was asked (Why were the KG at the TOJ?) as well as he could. He obviously wasn't going to say "They were there because R+L got married and as such their son was the rightfull king and they needed to protect him".

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I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Jon and Dany were both in fact born and each had two parents, despite a rumor about Jon and a cabbage.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,

"To talk of many things:

Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--

Of cabbages--and kings--

And why the sea is boiling hot--

And whether pigs have wings."

The Walrus and the Carpenter

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”

“She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

Though the imagery is well used and it might really be more of a coincidence; there might be a subtle double meaning here: Cabbage is a natural remedy against breast engorgement and even mastitis....

from http://breastfeeding.about.com/od/CommonProblems/qt/Cabbage-Leaves.htm

Cabbage leaves are used by some women to help reduce breast swelling and relieve the discomfort that can occur as a result of engorgement or weaning from breastfeeding.

from http://www.naturalnews.com/034792_mastitis_breastfeeding_natural_remedies.html

But as with everything, there is also a less pleasant side to breastfeeding. This includes latching difficulties, low milk production, engorgement, and the much dreaded mastitis. Mastitis is a breastfeeding woman's worst nightmare. It is an infection of the breast tissue that involves enlargement, swelling, lumpiness, and pain in the affected breast. The pain has been described as excruciating for women who have suffered through it. It can be so extreme that the affected breast becomes red and hardened.

At worst case scenario, untreated mastitis can result in an agonizing abscess which may need to be surgically removed or drained, and possibly require the cessation of breastfeeding all together. In addition to these direct symptoms on the breast, mastitis is often accompanied by a fever and malaise.[...]

As unusual as it may seem, a raw cabbage leaf placed in the bra over the infection will work wonders in soothing the inflamed breast. A cool cabbage leaf acts as a cold compress to reduce inflammation. This cabbage treatment not only relieves breast tenderness, but also helps to unclog the milk duct to flush the infection.

Mastitis is a inflammation of the breasts that when left unchecked may cause fever/flu like symptoms -- today, women are given antibiotics; in the past; it was a cause of death...it can develop during pregnancy, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis

Mastitis typically develops when the milk is not properly removed from the breast. Milk stasis can lead to the milk ducts in the breasts becoming blocked, as the breast milk not being properly and regularly expressed. It has also been suggested that blocked milk ducts can occur as a result of pressure on the breast, such as tight-fitting clothing or an over-restrictive bra, although there is sparse evidence for this supposition . Mastitis may occur when the baby is not appropriately attached to the breast while feeding, when the baby has infrequent feeds or has problems suckling the milk out of the breast. [....]

Breast engorgement or mastitis occur frequently after weaning.

....it might just be a coincidence, but I'm sort of tempted by the idea that Jon was taken from Lyanna...

To me, the promises that Ned made encompass much more than just keeping Jon safe.... to me, it's about getting Jon back. I think the KG took him away; (hence Lyanna could not breastfeed him -- hence she could have developed mastitis...an alternative explanation for her fever) I think the KG had to make a choice; stay with Lyanna; or leave her and bring the heir to safety. I think, the logical choice from KG perspective is to take her son away -- her brother Ned would probably not kill her after all; and the usurper was meant to love her, too.

I know this contradicts the generally accepted explanation for the presence of KG at the "round tower" if Jon wasn't with Lyanna.... however.... I have doubts about Ned's dream -- the sequence of events; but as I do not have the books on hand I cannot double check the details and cross-reference... basically, I think that the fight with the KG, and Ned finding Lyanna happened in two different locations...and that Ned's six companions were all still alive when Lyanna died....

It seems to me that GRRM is being purposely vague; there is conveniently more than one single watch tower in the Prince's Pass; and in other references the KG died "in the Red Mountains of Dorne" >> the precise location is more often than not; unclear.... Though admittedly; I probably missed an explicit reference to the KG location in Ned's POV -- that I cannot go re-read....

In any case; even if the KG were with Lyanna; we cannot exclude that Jon was elsewhere....for the simple reason that taking Jon away actually keeps him safe; three KG and a babe would be rather conspicuous; it's like putting up a giant sign over Jon's head that reads "dragonspawn." So...I'm sort of divided between 1) Lyanna was abandoned to be found by Ned (left to die), and the KG attempted to take Jon to safety and 2) The KG stayed with Lyanna, but Jon was kept somewhere else, possibly at Starfall....

the option 3) The KG, Lyanna and Jon were all in the same location -- is both the bravest but also the most foolish imo. Indeed three men could not have protected Jon against Robert's wrath and the Targaryen cause was already lost. By doing that, it'd seem to me the KG actually committed suicide and that they meant to take Jon down with them.... that would seem a contradiction of their vows. This option seems plausible to me, only if the KG had no time to ponder the best course of action and were basically forced by circumstances to make a last desperate stand....

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Yes, to begin with. And it's true, if he gave them an order, they would obey it, because when he gives the order the king is protected by other KG (as far as they know, anyway) and therefore they are free to do other things. When Ned arrives at the TOJ, however, they are the only KG still alive and loyal to the Targs. If Viserys is king (which he would be, if the baby in that tower is a bastard), then they should and would have gone to him. Protecting the king is more important than following the orders of the dead crown prince (and even if you can argue the opposite regarding Dayne and Whent, you simply cannot do it with Hightower). If they stayed at that tower, that means the king was there.

To put it simply: Rhaegar's orders was why they were there at first, but they do not explain why they are still there when Ned arrives. GRRM didn't lie, he just answered the question he was asked (Why were the KG at the TOJ?) as well as he could. He obviously wasn't going to say "They were there because R+L got married and as such their son was the rightfull king and they needed to protect him".

Exactly. When people analyze GRRM's words, they need to take into account what he would be willing to reveal and what he would need to conceal. The words always need to be examined in that context. Of course GRRM is going to describe the actions of the KG in a general manner because he does not want to give away too much now regarding ToJ. Most people (including me) seem to believe that while the KG certainly follow orders and Rhaegar likely ordered them to guard a pregnant Lyanna at ToJ, a rational reader can conclude that once Rhaegar and Aerys and Aegon are dead, and Viserys has gone to Dragonstone, the 3 KG at ToJ would not keep following the orders of a dead Rhaegar over the need to have at least one KG guarding the king--the primary vow of the KG. Perhaps this conclusion is wrong, but the SSM from GRRM notwithstanding, I think this conclusion is well supported by the information given to the reader about the KG generally and about the behavior of these three KG in particular (i.e., they took their vows very seriously). Once that conclusion is reached, logic dictates that by the time of the showdown with Ned at ToJ, the 3 KG believed they were guarding the king, Jon (otherwise at least one KG would have tried to get to Dragonstone to be with Viserys).

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"The time has come," the Walrus said,

"To talk of many things:

Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--

Of cabbages--and kings--

And why the sea is boiling hot--

And whether pigs have wings."

The Walrus and the Carpenter

Though the imagery is well used and it might really be more of a coincidence; there might be a subtle double meaning here: Cabbage is a natural remedy against breast engorgement and even mastitis....

I always read the cabbage thing as mocking the kinds of stories little kids believe about where babies come from (stork, etc.), with a little pop-culture wink to those ubiquitous dolls from the 80s :D

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Yes, to begin with. And it's true, if he gave them an order, they would obey it, because when he gives the order the king is protected by other KG (as far as they know, anyway) and therefore they are free to do other things. When Ned arrives at the TOJ, however, they are the only KG still alive and loyal to the Targs. If Viserys is king (which he would be, if the baby in that tower is a bastard), then they should and would have gone to him. Protecting the king is more important than following the orders of the dead crown prince (and even if you can argue the opposite regarding Dayne and Whent, you simply cannot do it with Hightower). If they stayed at that tower, that means the king was there.

To put it simply: Rhaegar's orders was why they were there at first, but they do not explain why they are still there when Ned arrives. GRRM didn't lie, he just answered the question he was asked (Why were the KG at the TOJ?) as well as he could. He obviously wasn't going to say "They were there because R+L got married and as such their son was the rightfull king and they needed to protect him".

Yes! Exactly.

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Mastitis is a inflammation of the breasts that when left unchecked may cause fever/flu like symptoms -- today, women are given antibiotics; in the past; it was a cause of death...it can develop during pregnancy, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis

....it might just be a coincidence, but I'm sort of tempted by the idea that Jon was taken from Lyanna...

To me, the promises that Ned made encompass much more than just keeping Jon safe.... to me, it's about getting Jon back. I think the KG took him away; (hence Lyanna could not breastfeed him -- hence she could have developed mastitis...an alternative explanation for her fever) I think the KG had to make a choice; stay with Lyanna; or leave her and bring the heir to safety. I think, the logical choice from KG perspective is to take her son away -- her brother Ned would probably not kill her after all; and the usurper was meant to love her, too.

I know this contradicts the generally accepted explanation for the presence of KG at the "round tower" if Jon wasn't with Lyanna.... however.... I have doubts about Ned's dream -- the sequence of events; but as I do not have the books on hand I cannot double check the details and cross-reference... basically, I think that the fight with the KG, and Ned finding Lyanna happened in two different locations...and that Ned's six companions were all still alive when Lyanna died....

It seems to me that GRRM is being purposely vague; there is conveniently more than one single watch tower in the Prince's Pass; and in other references the KG died "in the Red Mountains of Dorne" >> the precise location is more often than not; unclear.... Though admittedly; I probably missed an explicit reference to the KG location in Ned's POV -- that I cannot go re-read....

In any case; even if the KG were with Lyanna; we cannot exclude that Jon was elsewhere....for the simple reason that taking Jon away actually keeps him safe; three KG and a babe would be rather conspicuous; it's like putting up a giant sign over Jon's head that reads "dragonspawn." So...I'm sort of divided between 1) Lyanna was abandoned to be found by Ned (left to die), and the KG attempted to take Jon to safety and 2) The KG stayed with Lyanna, but Jon was kept somewhere else, possibly at Starfall....

the option 3) The KG, Lyanna and Jon were all in the same location -- is both the bravest but also the most foolish imo. Indeed three men could not have protected Jon against Robert's wrath and the Targaryen cause was already lost. By doing that, it'd seem to me the KG actually committed suicide and that they meant to take Jon down with them.... that would seem a contradiction of their vows. This option seems plausible to me, only if the KG had no time to ponder the best course of action and were basically forced by circumstances to make a last desperate stand....

A lot of issues to unpack, as I disagree with most of what you are saying. First, mastitis would not result in the bleeding that is described (bed of blood) and would not result in death as quickly as appears to be the case here. Also, I doubt mastitis would have even developed that quickly after birth, so mastitis is not a good candidate for the cause of the fever. The majority view of puerperal fever is still the best explanation for Lyanna's death that fits all the clues.

If Jon is not in the ToJ, I don't see how there is even a showdown. While the KG would be uncertain whether Ned would kill Jon or take Jon to Robert (to be killed), there is virtually no risk that Ned would hut Lyanna. So if only Lyanna is at the ToJ, why would the KG fight Ned at all. Now you suggest that maybe the showdown does not occur at ToJ or maybe it is Lyanna who is not at ToJ in you judgment, but the text contradicts any such suggestions.

The relevant chapter starts with the following line, "He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." So this line confirms that the battle with the 3 KG and Lyanna's death in he bed of blood both happened at the ToJ. It is an old dream, so these initial facts are reliable (even if later details may be not exactly what happened).

You then seem to conclude that logically moving Jon to another location would make him safer. I disagree. First, keep in mind that the primary vow of the KG is to guard the king. At least one KG must be assigned to the king at all times. Thus, once the KG find out that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, and VIserys has gone to Dragonstone, at least one KG needs to try to get to Jon (if legitimate) or Viserys (if Jon is not) so that the king has a KG assigned to him. So if we know that the KG are at ToJ, we can pretty much conclude that Jon must be at ToJ and is considered to be king by the 3 KG.

Also keep in mind that the KG had been at ToJ for a long time and no one found them (other than Hightower--and apparently whatever method he used is not one they fear others could use to find them). They thought the tower was a pretty good secret. The 3 KG were there originally on Rhaegar's orders, but once they learned of the deaths, they had to keep the new king, Jon, safe. Keeping him in a secret tower that had not been found by anyone in about a year seemed like a pretty good plan. The 3 KG were not there to try to protect against an invading army, but rather to kill anyone who accidentally found them. They did not think anyone would able to locate them other than accidentally because they thought the location was well hidden and no one (other than Hightower) had located them in all the time they were there, which by that point had been a pretty long time. Traveling with an infant to another location while being pursued by enemies may not have seemed like such a good alternative. We also don't know how old Jon was at the time of the showdown. He likely was 3-10 days old (the typical time between birth a death of mother by puerperal fever). So there was not a lot of time to form a plan to get Jon away in any event.

And finally, if your theory is that the KG secreted Jon away and "stole" him from his mother, after Ned and his group kill the 3 KG, how does Ned ever learn of the location of Jon? Presumably the KG would not have told Lyanna if they were "stealing" Jon from her.

So from the text we know that the KG and Lyanna were at ToJ at the time of the showdown. We know that KG emphasized to Ned that the KG keep their vows. We know that the primary vow is to protect the king. We know that Jon would be king if born already and if Rhaegar married Lyanna. We know that Ned and his group killed the 3 KG and only Ned and Howland survived the battle. We know that Ned was with Lyanna when she died in the ToJ. We know that Ned brought Jon back to Winterfell, so Ned must have gotten hold of Jon somehow. All these clues point to one conclusion, Lyanna and Jon (as well as servants, including likely a wet-nurse) were in the ToJ when the showdown occurred between Ned and his group and the 3 KG. Ned goes into ToJ after the battle and finds a dying Lyanna. She makes Ned promise her that Ned will protect Jon and perhaps even promise to raise Jon as Ned's son. Lyanna dies and Howland and the servants find Ned with the dead Lyanna. While GRRM has enough leeway to write a somewhat different series of events, I believe that this line-up is the most likely given all the clues. Your theory has too many inconsistencies with known facts from the text.

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03 Brandon reaches KL and is incarcerated Rickard Stark is summonned.

05 Rickard Stark and a host of Northerners arrive in KL and most of them get roasted.

Can this be right? It only took 2 weeks for Rickard to receive the summons and get to KL. I thought it took longer than 2 weeks to get from WF to KL by boat or on land??? Maybe I'm wrong.....

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[...]

THAT might fit, but everything else in between kindof goes all to hell. :uhoh:

Anyway, my point wasn't to "prove" any theory one way or another, but to show that "doing the math" leads to two conclusions:

1) GRRM is operating REALLY wild and loose with timelines and they can't be trusted at face value,

or

2) Somebody is fudging somebody else's backstory.

Both are possible....

GRRM used moon turn for months; implying his months are not our months, but lunar months, with an average of 29-30 days. A year in universe would be slightly shorter than in Real World; and we might have to account for an occasional 13th month, to synchronize lunar and solar calenders. Or we might have only a lunar calender (like for ex. the Islamic calender)....considering that seasons last years -- equinoxes and solstices would be different in universe; the usual season markers gone -- hence, there'd be no need to adjust the calender to seasonal changes (the sun's cycle)....in any case; as long as GRRM keeps his secrets, we can only say that his months equal the lunar cycle....but can say little about his calender....so it seems pointless to try to calculate a precise timeline and that's precisely the way he wants it anyway....

One thing we can expect though is that in universe lunar cycle = our lunar cycles; because if it weren't the case; things would be awfully complicated, not just for us -- but for GRRM, too.

In any case....before Julian's reform:

The ordinary year in the previous Roman calendar consisted of 12 months, for a total of 355 days. In addition, a 27-day intercalary month, the Mensis Intercalaris, was sometimes inserted between February and March. This intercalary month was formed by inserting 22 days after the first 23 or 24 days of February; the last five days of February, which counted down toward the start of March, became the last five days of Intercalaris. The net effect was to add 22 or 23 days to the year, forming an intercalary year of 377 or 378 days. [...] If too many intercalations were omitted, as happened after the Second Punic War and during the Civil Wars, the calendar would drift out of alignment with the tropical year. Moreover, because intercalations were often determined quite late, the average Roman citizen often did not know the date, particularly if he were some distance from the city. For these reasons, the last years of the pre-Julian calendar were later known as "years of confusion". The problems became particularly acute during the years of Julius Caesar's pontificate before the reform, 63–46 BC, when there were only five intercalary months (instead of eight), none of which were during the five Roman years before 46 BC.

I think there's a chance we have a similar situation in westeros....That's why the maesters have to study astronomy ;) and the reason GRRM is so vague. If the average Westerosis does not know the precise date; few would care to recall precisely how long RR lasted.... as a side note; even today in some societies, knowing a precise date is not considered important.... I've met a few people who didn't know how old they were; and were forced to "chose" a birth date in order to apply for a passport...just saying, time and dates are important to us readers; but Westerosis might care little and less; I expect that only the high born keep an eye on the calender to celebrate name days.... more often than not, even they would imo, have to refer to a maester; or look to King's Landing...the highest authority for such matters as "year end" and "year begin" would probably be the Citadel.... in any case; I expect that outside of the maesters; and outside of great events (Joffrey's name day; the King's death etc.) on average days, most people, even high borns, only have an approximate idea of the date....

GRRM "months" probably have other names as well...and how do we know when the "new year" stars? In other cultures, new year falls around the spring equinox....the Attic calender started in June....not all calenders have months matching with ours either -- some match the zodiac more closely.

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