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R+L=J v. 88


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On Ashara, I think it is a combination of two possibilities.

One, I like the theory that Rhaegar spoke with Dustin, and two that it might have been Ashara who found Ned to tell him that Lyanna was sick.

Between Dustins information and Ashara, he took only a few trusted men and knew where to go.

Hence GRRMS statement of not being nailed down to Starfall.

Wait Rhaegar spoke with Dustin? I missed that theory.

I agree you have to figure Ashara is involved or their is no point to his comment. Though if you look at his full comment about it, he did say she could of taken a ship. Which would mean that ships were available to the KG given Arthur was with them. So if even just one of them wanted to leave you do have at least one ship that they could of possibly used.

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Jon is the Avatar isn't he? It's all becoming so clear!

Yes and he appears to be in Meereen, red pyramids anyone. So it is clear Jon is going to shave his head because Kit has confused everyone about his hair color and then travel to Meereen. Ghost will also shrink and become a little half wolf dragon bat thing. Then he will take his vengeance out on the Cabbages that abandoned him. Dark Stark revenge of the Cabbage kid.

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Yes and he appears to be in Meereen, red pyramids anyone. So it is clear Jon is going to shave his head because Kit has confused everyone about his hair color and then travel to Meereen. Ghost will also shrink and become a little half wolf dragon bat thing. Then he will take his vengeance out on the Cabbages that abandoned him. Dark Stark revenge of the Cabbage kid.

Well who needs Winds of Winter when we have obviously-100%-correct theories like this one.

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Well who needs Winds of Winter when we have obviously-100%-correct theories like this one.

Some of us are a bit like addicts I am afraid to say. If we and by we I mean I, don't get my fix soon Peas and Carrots is going to become an actual thing. Or the perhaps the Blargaryen thread, a thread on secret Targs that you are just kind of Blah on. Hurry George, hurry, I need it man, I need. You ever notice when Martin posts a little taste aka a sample chapter that everyone goes nuts for about a month. Mercy man, yeah Mercy, mmmmm that's good stuff. Oh, Oh, Oh, Tyrion man, yeah man time to ride the white dragon. I think a few of us may be riding the white dragon until winds comes out. Hey got a little Mercy, want a taste, who wants a little Mercy. Oh you want to ride the white dragon? Right on man, be careful man the white dragon is not for amateurs.

That said I do have a monster historical theory I am working on with help from a few other posters. It may just shock the forum with a new perspective on the ancient past. Shocking text support and evidence given from the author himself. Not that I spoke to him but there are a couple of emails that may reveal the truth.

Wait better make this post about R+L=J while I am plugging the crap out of my own stuff, ummmm Ghost is a Dire Wolf he has symbolism that may or may not be about R+L=J. Sweet, Mod proof post. Um I love you guys Mods rule. :)

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Wait Rhaegar spoke with Dustin? I missed that theory.

I agree you have to figure Ashara is involved or their is no point to his comment. Though if you look at his full comment about it, he did say she could of taken a ship. Which would mean that ships were available to the KG given Arthur was with them. So if even just one of them wanted to leave you do have at least one ship that they could of possibly used.

There was a pretty good theory he may have visited the cells when he came back to KL.

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I think Alia was referring to Ethan Glover. If you look at the composition of Ned's party, there will be two members that really don't make sense if you are looking forward to a confrontation with three of the deadliest Kingsguard. Howland, who is short in stature, and unlikely to have become a master of the longsword, mace, warhammer, or pike. And, Ethan Glover recently rescued from the Black Cells of the Red Keep, having spent about a year or more within their confines. Ethan is likely a scarecrow from malnutrition and lack of exercise.



When we consider how Ned would constitute his party, he would select for martial abilities and discretion. If Howland learned that it was to rescue the maiden that had saved him at Harrenhal, he would insist that Ned include him in the party.



So, why does Ned bring Ethan Glover along? Could it be that Rhaegar, when he returned to the Red Keep, visited this long forgotten squire? Could Rhaegar have entrusted secrets to him that would protect his lady, should anything happen to him? Would Rhaegar do such a thing?



So, Rhaegar leads the army to the Trident and dies there. Ned leads the army to King’s Landing and arrives to see Tywin sacking the city. He enters the Red Keep (Amory and Gregor are doing their business if anyone can enter the Red Keep) and sees Jaime sitting on the throne, looking at Aerys’ corpse. Some hours later the tail of the army drags in, and Robert arrives. They convene a council and discuss who should be crowned. They crown Robert and Tywin presents some bodies shrouded in crimson cloaks to conceal what must be fresh blood. (This speaks to how rapidly we get Robert onto the throne, the blood would not be concealed by crimson cloaks if it is clotting.) Robert forgives Jaime and Barristan, the forgiveness of Jaime along with the acceptance of the gift of slain children infuriates Ned to the point that war was brewing in King’s Landing between Robert and Ned. Jon Arryn manages to separate the two, and Ned takes care of the remaining battles . . . lifting the siege of Storm’s End, and possibly some skirmishes in route.



Ned has had a pretty tight schedule, but I find it very likely that a day or two after the fall of King’s Landing a recently recovered Ethan Glover makes a case for a private audience with Ned. It certainly would be after leaving King’s Landing before Ned turned his attention away from what had been happening there. Perhaps Ashara pops up somewhere along the line, but I find that a stretch, since we are talking about crossing the front for the two to meet. It could have been a raven. In any event, it is after lifting the siege of Storm’s End that Ned relinquishes command of the armies to Stannis, for the taking of Dragonstone, and departs for what we know is the tower of joy. Ethan was likely needed as a guide, certainly there are better swords.


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Do you figure that's show creep? I also think the "Jon Snow is a pretty boy" comments I've seen have more to do with Harington than the character. I don't remember really anybody thinking he's pretty in the books. (You could do the "Lyanna is pretty and Jon looks like Lyanna" thing, but for whatever reason that's just not how anybody reacts to him in the books. Ned either.)

The graphic novels really highlight his more delicate and aquiline features.

In fact, Henry Lloyd, the actor who played Viserys, originally read for the part.

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I think Alia was referring to Ethan Glover. If you look at the composition of Ned's party, there will be two members that really don't make sense if you are looking forward to a confrontation with three of the deadliest Kingsguard. Howland, who is short in stature, and unlikely to have become a master of the longsword, mace, warhammer, or pike. And, Ethan Glover recently rescued from the Black Cells of the Red Keep, having spent about a year or more within their confines. Ethan is likely a scarecrow from malnutrition and lack of exercise.

When we consider how Ned would constitute his party, he would select for martial abilities and discretion. If Howland learned that it was to rescue the maiden that had saved him at Harrenhal, he would insist that Ned include him in the party.

So, why does Ned bring Ethan Glover along? Could it be that Rhaegar, when he returned to the Red Keep, visited this long forgotten squire? Could Rhaegar have entrusted secrets to him that would protect his lady, should anything happen to him? Would Rhaegar do such a thing?

So, Rhaegar leads the army to the Trident and dies there. Ned leads the army to Kings Landing and arrives to see Tywin sacking the city. He enters the Red Keep (Amory and Gregor are doing their business if anyone can enter the Red Keep) and sees Jaime sitting on the throne, looking at Aerys corpse. Some hours later the tail of the army drags in, and Robert arrives. They convene a council and discuss who should be crowned. They crown Robert and Tywin presents some bodies shrouded in crimson cloaks to conceal what must be fresh blood. (This speaks to how rapidly we get Robert onto the throne, the blood would not be concealed by crimson cloaks if it is clotting.) Robert forgives Jaime and Barristan, the forgiveness of Jaime along with the acceptance of the gift of slain children infuriates Ned to the point that war was brewing in Kings Landing between Robert and Ned. Jon Arryn manages to separate the two, and Ned takes care of the remaining battles . . . lifting the siege of Storms End, and possibly some skirmishes in route.

Ned has had a pretty tight schedule, but I find it very likely that a day or two after the fall of Kings Landing a recently recovered Ethan Glover makes a case for a private audience with Ned. It certainly would be after leaving Kings Landing before Ned turned his attention away from what had been happening there. Perhaps Ashara pops up somewhere along the line, but I find that a stretch, since we are talking about crossing the front for the two to meet. It could have been a raven. In any event, it is after lifting the siege of Storms End that Ned relinquishes command of the armies to Stannis, for the taking of Dragonstone, and departs for what we know is the tower of joy. Ethan was likely needed as a guide, certainly there are better swords.

Woops, that's right, Ethan. 😁

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Greymoon, I think you're reading too much in to the symbolism of cabbage leaves i the text. The practice of telling children that babies come from under cabbage leaves dates back to the middle ages, and GRRM has admitted he knew very little about female reproduction early on in his writing. It seems unlikely he gave that much thought to the fever being caused by a relatively obscure condition like mastitis (not obscure if you've suffered from it, but let's face it-- it's not well known to those who haven't borne children.)

What seems most logical is that he uses bed of blood in the same manner repeatedly throughout the text to indicate childbirth, and that he added the relatively well known condition of puerperal or childbed fever in this case to explain the tragic death of a relatively healthy young woman.

However....

I think your verse is spot on :D

This thread does indeed talk of many things,and while cabbages and kings seem tops on the list, I'm pretty sure some of those posts I can't see must be about whether pigs have wings ;)

Yes; it's taking it a bit far.... I just really want to believe that the KG were not nice to poor dying Lyanna.... ;) and that they had a suicidal agenda of their own >> to name Jon King of Westeros and win the throne back in his name -- or die trying; all in the name of honor and vengeance.... this would find an echo in the Arianne/Myrcella plot; Gerold Dayne would work as a nice bridge. For that to occur though, since I don't think Lyanna would have agreed; the KG would have to have separated mother and child.... and to have been on their way to Starfall; or further south with baby Jon, to gather an army when Ned caught up with them....

Cabbage/mastitis provides convenient evidence for "Jon was taken from Lyanna" -- though it is coincidental.

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Greymoon, I think you're reading too much in to the symbolism of cabbage leaves i the text. The practice of telling children that babies come from under cabbage leaves dates back to the middle ages, and GRRM has admitted he knew very little about female reproduction early on in his writing. It seems unlikely he gave that much thought to the fever being caused by a relatively obscure condition like mastitis (not obscure if you've suffered from it, but let's face it-- it's not well known to those who haven't borne children.)

What seems most logical is that he uses bed of blood in the same manner repeatedly throughout the text to indicate childbirth, and that he added the relatively well known condition of puerperal or childbed fever in this case to explain the tragic death of a relatively healthy young woman.

However....

I think your verse is spot on :D

This thread does indeed talk of many things,and while cabbages and kings seem tops on the list, I'm pretty sure some of those posts I can't see must be about whether pigs have wings ;)

Rhaella, Dalla and Joanna died in childbirth... without the aid of peuperal fever,

Being a young healthy young woman (16) does not work in her favor,

  • Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older women.

Why would GRRM need to add another condition to explain the most likely death in childbirth?

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/womens_health_issues/high-risk_pregnancy/high-risk_pregnancy.html and http://sparky.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2926897.html and http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47735#.U8gbc_l_vT8 and http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs348/en/

Show risk of maternal death and poor birth outcmes are greater with young women.. with the highest risk group being under 15

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Woops, that's right, Ethan.

Oh ok yeah I know the Ethan Glover theory, I thought for a second you were talking about Lady Dustin. I was all how? When? Why? Well she is in total denial about what happened to her husband and has no business blaming Ned. That would be very Martin, but I could not figure out the logistics. Lady Dustin as Ashara Dayne, she does have horses and could take a ship from White Harbor. Maybe she killed Lyanna, stole the real baby and left her and Brandons child there. The real baby she gave to Roose to keep then Roose hid the baby with a Millers wife and he eventually became Ramsey the true Prince that was Promised.

That evil Jon is trying to take Ramsey' heritage from him, all pretending to be a secret Targ that doesn't know he is a secret Targ. Nice try you black bastard. Even tried to make Sam like Reek. Ser Piggy, cause pigs are stinky. And all trying to use Ghost to be like Rasmey and his dogs. That Bastard.

You know what screw the Glover theory I am totally going with this theory of yours on Lady Dustin that you totally came up with. Nice work Alia. I'll go post this on a thread for you and give you all the credit.

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What would Ethan Glover know?

Hasn't he been dumped in the black cells for a year?

The idea goes that when Rhaegar was back in KL, he spoke to the only surviving member of Brandon's party, Ethan. In that conversation, he let slip some information about Lyanna. (This is all purely speculation.)

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I think Alia was referring to Ethan Glover. If you look at the composition of Ned's party, there will be two members that really don't make sense if you are looking forward to a confrontation with three of the deadliest Kingsguard. Howland, who is short in stature, and unlikely to have become a master of the longsword, mace, warhammer, or pike. And, Ethan Glover recently rescued from the Black Cells of the Red Keep, having spent about a year or more within their confines. Ethan is likely a scarecrow from malnutrition and lack of exercise.

When we consider how Ned would constitute his party, he would select for martial abilities and discretion. If Howland learned that it was to rescue the maiden that had saved him at Harrenhal, he would insist that Ned include him in the party.

So, why does Ned bring Ethan Glover along? Could it be that Rhaegar, when he returned to the Red Keep, visited this long forgotten squire? Could Rhaegar have entrusted secrets to him that would protect his lady, should anything happen to him? Would Rhaegar do such a thing?

So, Rhaegar leads the army to the Trident and dies there. Ned leads the army to King’s Landing and arrives to see Tywin sacking the city. He enters the Red Keep (Amory and Gregor are doing their business if anyone can enter the Red Keep) and sees Jaime sitting on the throne, looking at Aerys’ corpse. Some hours later the tail of the army drags in, and Robert arrives. They convene a council and discuss who should be crowned. They crown Robert and Tywin presents some bodies shrouded in crimson cloaks to conceal what must be fresh blood. (This speaks to how rapidly we get Robert onto the throne, the blood would not be concealed by crimson cloaks if it is clotting.) Robert forgives Jaime and Barristan, the forgiveness of Jaime along with the acceptance of the gift of slain children infuriates Ned to the point that war was brewing in King’s Landing between Robert and Ned. Jon Arryn manages to separate the two, and Ned takes care of the remaining battles . . . lifting the siege of Storm’s End, and possibly some skirmishes in route.

Ned has had a pretty tight schedule, but I find it very likely that a day or two after the fall of King’s Landing a recently recovered Ethan Glover makes a case for a private audience with Ned. It certainly would be after leaving King’s Landing before Ned turned his attention away from what had been happening there. Perhaps Ashara pops up somewhere along the line, but I find that a stretch, since we are talking about crossing the front for the two to meet. It could have been a raven. In any event, it is after lifting the siege of Storm’s End that Ned relinquishes command of the armies to Stannis, for the taking of Dragonstone, and departs for what we know is the tower of joy. Ethan was likely needed as a guide, certainly there are better swords.

Huh. Well. File this under things I've never considered. But yeah, taking Glover along does feel off (so does Howland but I've reconciled that in my head with the incident at Harrenhal like you).

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The idea goes that when Rhaegar was back in KL, he spoke to the only surviving member of Brandon's party, Ethan. In that conversation, he let slip some information about Lyanna. (This is all purely speculation.)

Thank you, thin ice... but ...

Huh. Well. File this under things I've never considered. But yeah, taking Glover along does feel off (so does Howland but I've reconciled that in my head with the incident at Harrenhal like you).

... who knows why he did? He was all there was left of the "old Northern nobility" - he was a poor pitiful sod? Ned wanted to right Brandons wrongs? Or maybe Ethan had decyphered the Brynden Rivers code, engraved into the very cell he was confined with.

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Thank you, thin ice... but ...

... who knows why he did? He was all there was left of the "old Northern nobility" - he was a poor pitiful sod? Ned wanted to right Brandons wrongs? Or maybe Ethan had decyphered the Brynden Rivers code, engraved into the very cell he was confined with.

Or Ethan had to die, so that he was no longer alive to inform us readers. And GRRM gave him a more noble death than 'succumbing to being in the Black Cells for a year.'

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Or Ethan had to die, so that he was no longer alive to inform us readers. And GRRM gave him a more noble death than 'succumbing to being in the Black Cells for a year.'

So Varys sent a raven to Hightower, "whatever you are messing with down there, make sure Stark's squire doesn't spill our comfortable secrets. will you not."

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Rhaella, Dalla and Joanna died in childbirth... without the aid of peuperal fever,

Being a young healthy young woman (16) does not work in her favor,

  • Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older women.
Why would GRRM need to add another condition to explain the most likely death in childbirth?

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/womens_health_issues/high-risk_pregnancy/high-risk_pregnancy.html and http://sparky.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2926897.html and http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47735#.U8gbc_l_vT8 and http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs348/en/

Show risk of maternal death and poor birth outcmes are greater with young women.. with the highest risk group being under 15

Most take the knowledge of Lyanna dying of a fever which is said to be the cause and the use of Bed of blood. Rouge Prince has a case or two of Childbed fever in it. But generally it's the fever part, Rather than lets say hemorrhaging. Puerperal fever had actually reached epidemic levels in the 1800's, and we know Martin knows what it is because he has put it in the books.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_mortality_rates_of_puerperal_fever

There is a chart done showing some of the mortality rates at one hospital at the bottom it reached as high as 30%.

But in the books it does serve a purpose to have a baby born before Ned encounters Lyanna, it's simply easier to write the scene and keep a secret if she had not just given birth moments before hand. Why isn;t the baby there, didn't she want to hold her new born? Little things like that. You can argue all you want about weather he was their or not. That's all you, and arguments can be made for it. I don't care either way, I can prove Jon was Born and is alive, he is in the books he has chapters, the rest is just semantics to me. I am curious about his origin, but it's not why I follow the character. I also know he is a Stark, one way or another Jon is a Stark with Stark blood. Good to go, I don't need the exact second of conception and birth, makes no difference to who he is.

If your asking what is the point of things. What is the point of knowing the exact second he was born or trying to debate it. The author himself has said he keeps chronology vague and we know he was born and have window given to us by Martin, how is that not good enough? Even if Jon is not legit they made a choice to stay and fight and will have their reasons for it.

All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion.

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, first of his name, Second son of Starfall, weilder of Dawn, Deadliest of the 7.

There is a point to what he says. Not just for his moment with Jaime but a much broader perspective.

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Jon was born 9 to 8 months or thereabouts before Dany... Dany was born 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the sack of King's Landing.--SSM cited earlier--link upon request

Jon was born on the death of Rhaegar and the sack of King's Landing

Most take the knowledge of Lyanna dying of a fever which is said to be the cause and the use of Bed of blood. Rouge Prince has a case or two of Childbed fever in it. But generally it's the fever part, Rather than lets say hemorrhaging. Puerperal fever had actually reached epidemic levels in the 1800's, and we know Martin knows what it is because he has put it in the books.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_mortality_rates_of_puerperal_fever

There is a chart done showing some of the mortality rates at one hospital at the bottom it reached as high as 30%.


But in the books it does serve a purpose to have a baby born before Ned encounters Lyanna, it's simply easier to write the scene and keep a secret if she had not just given birth moments before hand. Why isn;t the baby there, didn't she want to hold her new born? Little things like that. You can argue all you want about weather he was their or not. That's all you, and arguments can be made for it. I don't care either way, I can prove Jon was Born and is alive, he is in the books he has chapters, the rest is just semantics to me. I am curious about his origin, but it's not why I follow the character. I also no he is a Stark, one way or another Jon is a Stark with Stark blood. Good to go, I don't need the exact second of conception and birth, makes no difference to who he is.

If your asking what is the point of things. What is the point of knowing the exact second he was born or trying to debate it. The author himself has said he keeps chronology vague and we know he was born and have window given to us by Martin, how is that not good enough? Even if Jon is not legit they made a choice to stay and fight and will have their reasons for it.


“All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion.”
Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, first of his name, Second son of Starfall, weilder of Dawn, Deadliest of the 7.

There is a point to what he says. Not just for his moment with Jaime but a much broader perspective.

The events of chapters 39 and 58 take place an unspecified period of time before the events of chapter 4. In chronological sequence we have the following:

.

Lyanna's childbirth is cited by Ned in AGOT chapter 39 and again in 58

----Bed of blood and bloody bed are used by Ned and Mirri in chapters 39(N), 58(N), and 61(M) AGOT. We also have" That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain." AFfC p. 21 Each specified use of the term refers to childbirth.--

Unspecified period of time.

Lyanna's fever and death cited by Ned in AGOT chapter 4

---Peuperal fever cited in above post is a probable for the fever and death.

But in the books it does serve a purpose to have a baby born before Ned encounters Lyanna, it's simply easier to write the scene and keep a secret if she had not just given birth moments before hand. Why isn;t the baby there, didn't she want to hold her new born? Little things like that.

--all of that can be included in the unspecified time between birth and Lyanna's death. I agree that the inclusions you mentioned do not add to the story andare best left excluded.

You can argue all you want about weather he was their or not. That's all you, and arguments can be made for it. I don't care either way,

--I am just taking it as it is written....

I can prove Jon was Born and is alive, he is in the books he has chapters, the rest is just semantics to me.

--all very provable..

I am curious about his origin, but it's not why I follow the character. I also no he is a Stark, one way or another Jon is a Stark with Stark blood. Good to go, I don't need the exact second of conception and birth, makes no difference to who he is.
--agreed

If your asking what is the point of things. What is the point of knowing the exact second he was born or trying to debate it.

--There is not really much of a debate. There is canon vs headcanon-fanfiction

The author himself has said he keeps chronology vague and we know he was born and have window given to us by Martin, how is that not good enough?

--That is perfectly fine. I agree completely. That is the point that is worth arguing. That and canon vs headcanon-fanfiction.

Even if Jon is not legit they made a choice to stay and fight and will have their reasons for it.
--Agreed

“All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion.--died in a swordfigt outside the ToJ literally bleeding
Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, first of his name, Second son of Starfall, weilder of Dawn, Deadliest of the 7.

There is a point to what he says. Not just for his moment with Jaime but a much broader perspective.

--Agreed

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“All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion.”--died in a swordfigt outside the ToJ literally bleeding

Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, first of his name, Second son of Starfall, weilder of Dawn, Deadliest of the 7.

Suddenly, I think I'm okay with the last 15 pages after that gem. (noting that it is not a direct quote and only partial words, but just the creativity to realize that)

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Suddenly, I think I'm okay with the last 15 pages after that gem. (noting that it is not a direct quote and only partial words, but just the creativity to realize that)

No the devotion quote is a direct quote from the books. I quoted the entire recollection a few pages back. It's Jaime' standing vigil over his father, he recalls the first vigil he stood. I mean the name thing is just me paying homage to the man but devotion and all that is from the books.

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