R+L=J v. 88

[JonSnow4President]

No the devotion quote is a direct quote from the books. I quoted the entire recollection a few pages back. It's Jaime' standing vigil over his father, he recalls the first vigil he stood. I mean the name thing is just me paying homage to the man but devotion and all that is from the books.

Oh, I was saying calling Dayne the bleeding star isn't in the books. I know the devotion quote is. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh, I was saying calling Dayne the bleeding star isn't in the books. I know the devotion quote is. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh ok, yeah I didn't do that. But yeah he has been refereed to as the bleeding star. So has Dawn I think, forged from the heart of a falling star, blood from battle.

ETA: I have also read that Darkstar will be the next bleeding star. Think about that freebee you get darkness and a star.

[stateofdissipation]

Oh ok, yeah I didn't do that. But yeah he has been refereed to as the bleeding star. So has Dawn I think, forged from the heart of a falling star, blood from battle.

ETA: I have also read that Darkstar will be the next bleeding star. Think about that freebee you get darkness and a star.

so I took that as you meant it?

[Ser Creighton]

So what is up with the second son thing at the tower of Joy?

Gerold Hightower younger brother to Leyton Hightower' father.

Arthur Dayne younger brother to Edric Dayne' father

Oswell Whent younger brother to the Head of House Whent.

All second sons.

Tyrion a second son

Stannis a second son

Jon a second son of Rhaegar

The Second sons who served Dany and now ride with Tyrion

Bran a second son

Is Martin trying to make a point with this? If so what is it and how is it relevant to the Tower of Joy? I do 3's not 2's anyone got any ideas?

[BearQueen87]

So what is up with the second son thing at the tower of Joy?

Gerold Hightower younger brother to Leyton Hightower' father.

Arthur Dayne younger brother to Edric Dayne' father

Oswell Whent younger brother to the Head of House Whent.

All second sons.

Tyrion a second son

Stannis a second son

Jon a second son of Rhaegar

The Second sons who served Dany and now ride with Tyrion

Bran a second son

Is Martin trying to make a point with this? If so what is it and how is it relevant to the Tower of Joy? I do 3's not 2's anyone got any ideas?

Ned's a second son too.

as to the meaning: I'm not sure. Something to be said about how you expect "less" from a second son? The first son inherits the titles and responsibilities. Second sons are expected to..well..play second fiddle. Yet the ones listed above are potentially more important than the eldest.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

A reason the KG would fight Ned if Jon weren't at the tower, would be to keep him from talking to Lyanna and learning Jon's whereabouts and possibly even of his existence in the first place.

Also, I don't believe it contradicts the logic of the KG vow to protect the king, if Jon had been sent to Starfall ahead of the confrontation with Ned.

---

Has anybody here read today's Sean Bean interview at vulture.com? :)

I could be wrong, but I think they might show flashbacks via Bran's connection to the heart trees.

Oh, yeah, yeah! And I'm his father, so that would be great fun! Just to go back to that for a while, it would be such fun to do. It would be great! It would be bizarre, but it would be great! So I guess if they're going to do flashbacks, then yeah!

Well, it's just my theory ...

But it's a good theory! And that should happen, shouldn't it? I've definitely got some unfinished business that needs to be resolved there. I'm obviously not Jon Snow's dad. And you need that to be revealed at some point, don't you? So Bran would kind of be the one having the flashback, and he would see Ned praying, right? And revealing those things? You never know what those guys are going to do with that. It's got to be something special. But I'm into that. I certainly would be into that. Print that! Give them a nudge. [Laughs.] Hopefully I'll get a call soon.

- Link

---

Re: Second sons.

Second sons is definitely a theme in the series. There's also the sellsword company of the same name, that flies a banner with a broken sword. Reminiscent of Lightbringer, perhaps.

[stateofdissipation]

So what is up with the second son thing at the tower of Joy?

Gerold Hightower younger brother to Leyton Hightower' father.

Arthur Dayne younger brother to Edric Dayne' father

Oswell Whent younger brother to the Head of House Whent.

All second sons.

Tyrion a second son

Stannis a second son

Jon a second son of Rhaegar

The Second sons who served Dany and now ride with Tyrion

Bran a second son

Is Martin trying to make a point with this? If so what is it and how is it relevant to the Tower of Joy? I do 3's not 2's anyone got any ideas?

Only the first son inherited so as to keep the lands intact. That frees up the second sons, It also makes them second class.

The Kingsguard is less of a sacrifice for second sons--- they swear not to hold lands they will never own, they swear to not marry a wife they will never be able to keep... hence the KG should be full of them. It also explains why Tywin resigned when Jamie was made KG.

Tyrion is a second son and a dwarf... two strikes at birth.. killing his mother.. strike 3. He never really had a chance.

Stannis as a second son may indicate that he will never be king.

Jon--a bastard second son.. Rhaegar's he lacks proof of legitimacy or Ned's he is a bastard.... It puts him in the same boat as Tyrion,

the sellswords name explains why they are sellswords... they did not inherit lands

Bran being a second son may indicate he will not inherit the North

It would seem that the point GRRM is making is the same one Milton made.... The devil is more interesting than God. First sons seem spoiled and entitled-- boring.. Second sons are disinherited and struggling---interesting..

[BearQueen87]

---

Has anybody here read today's Sean Bean interview at vulture.com? :)

- Link

LOL. Nice!

[Ellfoy]

So everyone here is okay with R+L=J being now "public". Right on my facebook page, poor insullied !

Well, it seems that the side effect is that today all the threads discussed were in regards of R+L = J...

[BearQueen87]

So everyone here is okay with R+L=J being now "public". Right on my facebook page, poor insullied !

Well, it seems that the side effect is that today all the threads discussed were in regards of R+L = J...

Well for what it's worth, I don't think Sean Bean has any inside information. I think he's making a guess based on a theory that has really become overwhemingly popular with show viewers and the media who are paying attention to what book readers are saying. I think Bean has read the books? Or at least the first one?

[Ellfoy]

Well for what it's worth, I don't think Sean Bean has any inside information. I think he's making a guess based on a theory that has really become overwhemingly popular with show viewers and the media who are paying attention to what book readers are saying. I think Bean has read the books? Or at least the first one?

I'm not talking about Sean Bean. I'm talking about that video posted on facebook explaining R+L=J to all the people who happened to have "liked" Game of Thrones.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is from another thread. Bringing it hear because relevant. Maybe. It's a Sean Bean's interview:

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn’t Ned’s bastard at all.
That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.
Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

[BearQueen87]

This is from another thread. Bringing it hear because relevant. Maybe. It's a Sean Bean's interview:

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn’t Ned’s bastard at all.

That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

:crying:

[J. Stargaryen]

Re: Second sons.

Second sons is definitely a theme in the series. There's also the sellsword company of the same name, that flies a banner with a broken sword. Reminiscent of Lightbringer, perhaps.

Also, the Last Hero.

[stateofdissipation]

Sean Bean is cool and all don't get me wrong...

But his ideas of what GRRM wrote are kind of like asking a player what the coach is doing...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sean Bean is cool and all don't get me wrong...

But his ideas of what GRRM wrote are kind of like asking a player what the coach is doing...

Unless GRRM himself told him about it.

[stateofdissipation]

Unless GRRM himself told him about it.

Well that would again have to assume that

1. GRRM gave him complete and accurate information

2, that Sean Bean completely and accurately understood and relayed the information that GRRM gave him.

Neither are outside the realm of possibility. Coaches do sometimes give all players all the information... and players do sometimes understand it.. and players are sometimes able to relay that information...

However, most times coaches tell a player what he or she needs to know...

[Alia of the knife]

Oh ok yeah I know the Ethan Glover theory, I thought for a second you were talking about Lady Dustin. I was all how? When? Why? Well she is in total denial about what happened to her husband and has no business blaming Ned. That would be very Martin, but I could not figure out the logistics. Lady Dustin as Ashara Dayne, she does have horses and could take a ship from White Harbor. Maybe she killed Lyanna, stole the real baby and left her and Brandons child there. The real baby she gave to Roose to keep then Roose hid the baby with a Millers wife and he eventually became Ramsey the true Prince that was Promised.

That evil Jon is trying to take Ramsey' heritage from him, all pretending to be a secret Targ that doesn't know he is a secret Targ. Nice try you black bastard. Even tried to make Sam like Reek. Ser Piggy, cause pigs are stinky. And all trying to use Ghost to be like Rasmey and his dogs. That Bastard.

You know what screw the Glover theory I am totally going with this theory of yours on Lady Dustin that you totally came up with. Nice work Alia. I'll go post this on a thread for you and give you all the credit.

Hey hey, thats right blame the red head, we're the root of all evil. :devil:

Dustin, Ethan, Sneathan...... :P

[UnmaskedLurker]

A reason the KG would fight Ned if Jon weren't at the tower, would be to keep him from talking to Lyanna and learning Jon's whereabouts and possibly even of his existence in the first place.

Also, I don't believe it contradicts the logic of the KG vow to protect the king, if Jon had been sent to Starfall ahead of the confrontation with Ned.

Come on--you don't really believe they sent Jon to Starfall, do you? If they had taken Jon to Starfall, why would all 3 KG come back to ToJ to guard a dying Lyanna? Wouldn't at least one KG stay at Starfall with Jon? And if they stole Jon from Lyanna, they would not have told her of Jon's whereabouts, so Lyanna would not know where Jon had been taken. And if the KG had told Lyanna (i.e., he was not "stolen" from her but moved to safety), then why wouldn't they claim they were taking Ned's offer to go to Viserys, and go to Jon instead and get him from wherever Lyanna knew he was--that seems more logical that trying to keep Ned from talking to Lyanna and risk all their deaths. And if they thought there was a safer place for Jon than ToJ that they could have taken him to, then why not take Lyanna there earlier when she could travel to make Jon safe then (keeping the fetus safe seems equally important or at least almost as important). In my earlier post, I did not go into all these details, and I probably could come up with more if I thought about it a little harder, but come on and be real. I know you know this stuff better than that.

[mambru]

Yes, to begin with. And it's true, if he gave them an order, they would obey it, because when he gives the order the king is protected by other KG (as far as they know, anyway) and therefore they are free to do other things.

See, this is the assumption I've always had problems with - the assumption that because there is some KG with the king, the ToJ 3 are free to do other things, like run relatively unimportant errands for the Crown Prince that are:

1) not covered under their vows to guard the king, obey the king OR keep his secrets (as guarding Lyanna would not be - at the time Rhaegar left, she was at best Rhaegar's second wife, and was carrying only a fourth in line for the throne fetus, even if it DID turn out to be both legitimate and male.) In comparison to their duties to the king, this WOULD be an unimportant errand.

2) An errand bound to keep the 3 ToJ KG both away from their King and out of communication with their King for weeks at a time - thus keeping 3/7 of the KG FROM actual vow-fulfilling duties - one of those 3 being the Commander...under the assumption that none of them will be needed by the king during that time in the middle of a civil war.

And I think that assumption is simply unjustified. The KG doesn't just guard the king; they lead his armies, they guard his relatives. Just because they left the King with four KG, they have no justification to think that this situation will remain static. Battles will be fought, relatives may need to go elsewhere for safety, and 4 with the King might not stay 4 with the king over many weeks.

To believe the MarriedR+L theory is certain requires believing that the KG is simultaneously obsessed with guarding the king when they think the king is Jon ("The only reason they could possibly be there guarding the tower is because Jon is the King and the Kingsguard guards the king!") and totally careless of guarding the king when they think the king is Aerys ("Yes, we three will just stay here guarding your fourth-in-line heir for weeks, out of touch with KL. It's not like the King is going to need 42% of his Kingsguard including the Commander during a civil war. What could go wrong?")

I don't think those two assumptions really go together.

To me, staying in a place where the King could not call them and where they could not hear if the King needed them for weeks at a time during a war is not adequate Kingsguarding. To say it is is like saying that a family who leaves the baby in the care of the eleven year old (who has thus far only babysat for an afternoon) while they go off on some out-of-state weeklong trip due to a lesser responsibility without leaving a phone number behind is doing an adequate job of child care.

So to me, the fact that they obeyed Rhaegar and stayed there MAY show that: 1) they feel that they MUST obey any order from the Royal family (like Rhaegar) as IF he were the king, regardless of whether such an order indirectly endangers the King, or 2) they have actually taken Rhaegar AS their king and are obeying HIS orders and not Aerys', or 3) they have agreed to fudge their vows and turn a blind eye to Rhaegar's stealthy removal of his father's KG so that he can dethrone his father without them having to openly violate their vows by taking Rhaegar's side against his father, or 4) still more exciting possibilities we may not have thought of yet.