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R+L=J v. 88


Stubby

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There was a theory some time ago that at least one of the KG also loved Lyanna, (Dayne, or Whent), which added fuel to the fight at the TOJ.

Just like there's an idea that Margaret Beaufort and Jasper Tudor (her brother-in-law, for the uninitiated; her husband was dead when Henry was born) had an unspoken "thing."

Lyanna/Jon and Margaret/Henry actually have some resemblances, at least where the birthing is concerned. Dorne is basically Wales, where Henry was born. Margaret didn't die, but she was incredibly young and very much isolated when she gave birth. Rhaegar, like Edmund Tudor, was dead when his son was born.

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Possibly of interest to people in this thread, but I think I may have stumbled upon the answer to the question of Ashara Dayne's lover—Lewyn Martell. The discussion begins here.

That was an interesting read. Once you see the text about the song Arya hears plus all the Harrenhal evidence, then yeah. It does seem to point (at least more) to Lewyn Martell.

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Just like there's an idea that Margaret Beaufort and Jasper Tudor (her brother-in-law, for the uninitiated; her husband was dead when Henry was born) had an unspoken "thing."

Lyanna/Jon and Margaret/Henry actually have some resemblances, at least where the birthing is concerned. Dorne is basically Wales, where Henry was born. Margaret didn't die, but she was incredibly young and very much isolated when she gave birth. Rhaegar, like Edmund Tudor, was dead when his son was born.

Thirteen she was, and it was said Henry might have died but for her tender care, and there is Jasper, absolutely.

And given that GRRM stated that part of the Dornish parallel was historically a Welsh/Spanish hybrid, Jasper=Arthur Dayne?.....

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Thirteen she was, and it was said Henry might have died but for her tender care, and there is Jasper, absolutely.

And given that GRRM stated that part of the Dornish parallel was historically a Welsh/Spanish hybrid, Jasper=Arthur Dayne?.....

Not sure about him pointing to Arthur/Jasper explicitly (that's giving a LOT away, especially for people who know their WotR history), but Dorne and Wales, yeah. I think he has equivocated the two.

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Not sure about him pointing to Arthur/Jasper explicitly (that's giving a LOT away, especially for people who know their WotR history), but Dorne and Wales, yeah. I think he has equivocated the two.

Yes.

Agreed.

Throwing lots of parallels in there including Arthurian themes of unrequited, unattainable, or chivalrous love which of course could apply to Elia as well.

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Rhaegar was not king at any point, since he predeceased his father.

It's a total crapshoot whether 3 guys could turn the tide of a big battle. Much easier for 3 guys to make a difference fighting a small party in a mountain pass. And the KG almost won--they killed all but 2 of the 7, and Howland Reed saved Ned's life at the last second in some way we don't know yet.

He saved Ned by using the net
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Ned's a second son too.

as to the meaning: I'm not sure. Something to be said about how you expect "less" from a second son? The first son inherits the titles and responsibilities. Second sons are expected to..well..play second fiddle. Yet the ones listed above are potentially more important than the eldest.

Seconds sons usually aren't trained as well for ruling and command. Aren't they more taught to follow orders? Could that say something?
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He saved Ned by using the net

I'm still on the fence about this, but I'm thinkin Howland Reed did one of the blasphemous deed of a skinchanger and warged into Arthur Dayne for just a brief moment, confused him after he got the jump on Ned, and to give Ned a fighting chance and beat Arthur.

Yes, I'm assuming Howland is a skinchanger.

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I'm still on the fence about this, but I'm thinkin Howland Reed did one of the blasphemous deed of a skinchanger and warged into Arthur Dayne for just a brief moment, confused him after he got the jump on Ned, and to give Ned a fighting chance and beat Arthur.

Yes, I'm assuming Howland is a skinchanger.

I think Jojen already cleared him of that. I think Bran asked him at some point and Jojen said no he wasn't but I could be wrong.

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Thirteen she was, and it was said Henry might have died but for her tender care, and there is Jasper, absolutely.

And given that GRRM stated that part of the Dornish parallel was historically a Welsh/Spanish hybrid, Jasper=Arthur Dayne?.....

I thought he was talking about the Stoney Dornish and the Salty Dornish when he spoke of the hybrid as two different cultures exist in Dorne. The Stoney Dornish tend to pretty much follow the Andal customs, while the Salty Dornish have their own. I can't really get my head around any cultural similarities between the Welsh and the Salty Dornish.

Wasn't Jasper in the order of the Garter? Martin has actually compared the older version of the Order to the KG.

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I'm still on the fence about this, but I'm thinkin Howland Reed did one of the blasphemous deed of a skinchanger and warged into Arthur Dayne for just a brief moment, confused him after he got the jump on Ned, and to give Ned a fighting chance and beat Arthur.

Yes, I'm assuming Howland is a skinchanger.

The little crannogman (HR) is explicity not a greenseer. Which doesn't prove he's not a skinchanger mind you..

But anyone inventing things that have no textual clues, when there are many perfectly good rational explanations for whatever did happen, has no credibility in my book. Theorise away, but have some textual basis for it at least.

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The little crannogman (HR) is explicity not a greenseer. Which doesn't prove he's not a skinchanger mind you..

But anyone inventing things that have no textual clues, when there are many perfectly good rational explanations for whatever did happen, has no credibility in my book. Theorise away, but have some textual basis for it at least.

I know.

We're in a thread where we theorize anything involving R+L=J, especially what happen at the TOJ. We know HR and Ned survived, but it was Arthur with Dawn. I'm still of the opinion that there's no way Ned and Howland beat Arthur through sword fights alone. In fact, if it were merely sword fights, Howland could have died first. There has to be something that happened for Ned to have the thought that, if it weren't for Howland Reed, Arthur could have killed him that day.

Was it him skinchanging into Arthur to cause his confusion?

Did he shoot a poison dart into Arthur to cause him to slow down enough for Ned to beat him?

Was there a rope where he threw to tangle Arthur's movement, leading to Ned's fatal strike?

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Sean Bean confirms Ned isn't Jon's father in this interview. http://www.vulture.com/2014/07/sean-bean-legends-game-thrones-chat.html

Not sure if already posted.

Thanks for the link. Yes, it has already been brought up by J. Stargaryen and yet people are still nitpicking and/or in denial. I feel a bit sorry for them. Only a bit LOL

As for actors non knowing where the story is going and simply guessing, well, NO:

One of the things you're doing besides planning your shots and hoping to put together, is you're really becoming a bibliography and a road map. You can't do anything you don't know what's going on, but then you have to tell your actors what's going on, and they're incredibly grateful for it. A lot of that comes down to sitting down with Dave and Dan and saying, "What happens in season 6? Because I don't know what I'm doing." And they'll tell you what you're doing. I've had many moments with the actors where I've taken them aside and told them, "This is what happens next season" or even at the end of the whole series. And they'll go, "Oh, thank God you told me that. Now I know how to play it."

From a few 'close encounters' I had, I can only confirm what has been said btw ;)

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I know.

We're in a thread where we theorize anything involving R+L=J, especially what happen at the TOJ. We know HR and Ned survived, but it was Arthur with Dawn. I'm still of the opinion that there's no way Ned and Howland beat Arthur through sword fights alone. In fact, if it were merely sword fights, Howland could have died first. There has to be something that happened for Ned to have the thought that, if it weren't for Howland Reed, Arthur could have killed him that day.

Was it him skinchanging into Arthur to cause his confusion?

Did he shoot a poison dart into Arthur to cause him to slow down enough for Ned to beat him?

Was there a rope where he threw to tangle Arthur's movement, leading to Ned's fatal strike?

Larraq had years of work ahead of him before he mastered proper knightly weapons, sword and lance and mace, but he was deadly with his whip and trident. The old knight had warned him that the whip would be useless against an armored foe … until he saw how Larraq used it, snapping it around the legs of his opponents to yank them off their feet.

The crannogmen do not use whips but nets, but the effect would be much the same, immobilizing the opponent, getting him at a disadvantage. We see Meera use the net like this twice, and there is even a historical precedens, the Roman retiarius.

The sickness argument makes sense. But, if I'm being honest, having Jon at Starfall during the ToJ seems wrong. Even if the KG knew Ned was coming, it's their duty for at least one of them to be with Jon. If the other two die in the crossfire, then so be it. But one KG needs to be with Jon. It kinda takes away from the fever dream scene of Whent on one knee followed by "our knees do not bend" and "we swore a vow."

I get the analogy J. Stargaryen made about protection but it somehow doesn't feel as epic (bad word, going with it anyway) for Ned and other to fight these men and then go into the tower and find Lyanna with a baby, it all dawning (heh) on him.

I proposed something similar some time ago - not due to illness, as I believe that the notion of childbed fever would known even to the KG, but as a protection. After the Sack, Jon was in mortal danger, and what protected him best was not letting anyone know that he existed. If a KG was hanging around a baby at Starfall, eventually someone would tell and someone would figure out. Without any KG, Jon was just Wylla's bastard and no-one would ever stopped to think about it twice. If all three KG stayed at ToJ with Lyanna (who was probably too sick to be moved) and prevented anyone from seeing or talking to her, the secret would never out, and after she recovered or died, they would be free to spirit Jon away. In this scenario, they would be keeping the spirit of their vow, protecting Jon by not being with him so as not reveal his existence.

I haven't read TPAQ but if I got it right from what I've read on the forums, there is a similar situation - the KG assigned the protection of royal children whereas the king is smuggled out all on his own, without any KG whose presence, if recognised, would have been a red flag screaming "royal here".

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There has to be something that happened for Ned to have the thought that, if it weren't for Howland Reed, Arthur could have killed him that day.

Was it him skinchanging into Arthur to cause his confusion?

Did he shoot a poison dart into Arthur to cause him to slow down enough for Ned to beat him?

Was there a rope where he threw to tangle Arthur's movement, leading to Ned's fatal strike?

Did Ned finish off one of the other KG and was saved by HR shouting a warning as Dayne attacked him?

Did HR block a potentially fatal blow from Dayne allowing Ned to recover his position/balance?

Did HR throw a stone at Dayne which Dayne ducked, giving an opening to a Ned who was losing their fight?

Did Ned and HR fight Dayne shoulder to shoulder at the end and Ned merely believe he could never have beaten Dayne one on one?

There are approximately 50 million possible scenarios that satisfy our data without adding in something non-textual like warging (something, for example, that to do to humans is a huge no-no and something one of the most powerful Greenseers ever, Bran, can barely do to a halfwit).

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Howland simply bit into Dayne's shield so the unexpected shift in its weight allowed Ned to find an opening in Dayne's defense.



Or even before that he shouted: "Your sister bids me ask you to spare at least one Stark for future generations of friendship between Daynes and the North." which got him all out of step for a second of considering what he just said.



Is it of importance to know exactly what Howland did?


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