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Does a blackfyre have more claim to the IT than Daenerys ?


PirateVergo

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yeah, if we're going to believe stories of the past as fact (Daeron being a bastard) we have to believe all stories as fact (Naerys being rather devout and unlikely to sleep with Aemon.)



So which is more likely, the septa-like wife cheating with the septon-like knight brother, or the bitter and racist supporters of Daemon making up a rumor to bolster Daemon's weak claim?


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I was going to say "come one, Naerys was Aemon's sister!", but then I remembered which books we're discussing :lol:. What I meant to say is that, unlike the average Targaryen who has been educated to believe they should totally bang their sisters, I think Aemon and Naerys ACTUALLY saw each other as brother and sister, with no desire or lust between them, at least from Naerys' part. Or that's the impression I got from the little we know about them.

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No woman can sit the throne if there is a male to inherit. Blackfyres were stripped of all rights during the rebellions. So no, Dany would absolutely come before a Blackfyre.

Not to mention, if Dany takes the throne it'll be by force, not name. So any old Targaryen succession laws would be null and void. If she conquered the country she would not have to step down to either Jon or Aegon (presuming he's real, which I don't believe). After that, Dany can make whatever succession laws she wants. She can make it so only females can inherit the throne if that is her desire. But I think she'd go more the Dornish route, first born is heir, regardless of sex.

For this reason, the whole discussion on right to throne seems to be a moot point. There will be a fight, and whomever comes out on top, gets the nice cushy seat....

After Robert died, the discussion made sense. Since all hell broke out in Westeros, it no longer makes sense.

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There may be wars, but there will only be wars between people who have a very strong legal claim to the Iron Throne.



In that sense, claims always matter. Stannis, Aegon, and Dany all have very strong claims. The only guy with no Targaryen blood who has declared his intention to take the Iron Throne is Euron, and his plan is to marry Dany and thus steal her claim and power (by ruling in her name as Prince Consort).



And there is also only a law of succession for the Iron Throne. The decisions the Great Council made concerned the King on the Iron Throne, not the private inheritance rights of House Targaryen, and thus the family name really doesn't matter all that much.


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We know that no Women can sit on the Iron Throne since the Dance of Dragons unless they are the last heir alive.

If we use Targ laws does fAegon has a better claim than Daenerys?

Of course Blackfyre aren't targ but they still share the same blood and even if they are a bastard house they're still noble.

Going further, does a Targ male bastard (for example Jon if L+R weren't married) come before a women if we use Targ laws?

And I thought you were actually going to make the argument that would hold some water - that Daeron the Good was really a bastard son of Aemon the Dragonknight and Naerys, so legitimized bastard Daemon Blackfyre who was also the son of the older brother and his descendants would have a better claim than the Targaryens descended from Daeron. Which is possible, but no one can know the truth, and it wouldn't matter. I'd love it to be true just to show how little inheritance rules really mean. FAegon would, ironically, have the right to the Throne, but not in the way he and his supporters believe.

But as to your actual question - nope. No. Nay. Definitely not. By the Targaryen rules that were in place last time they had power, Dany would only come after her legitimate Targaryen brothers or uncles, from the same branch. Bastards, unless legitimized, are out of the line of succession. The Blackfyres were thrown out of the line of succession, too, and they are considered an offshot of the main house.

This, of course, if one recognizes the Targaryen rights at all and doesn't think they lost it when Robert won it by right of conquest. If you go by "right of conquest trumps all and the winner can make new rules", than Dany can do just that if she conquers Westeros. Might makes right has always been true. That's how Targaryens became kings, that's how Robert became king, that's how the previous Andal kings gained their powers and the First Men before them. And the rules were made to fit the current ruler and for political expediency - that's why the rule of 'uncles before daughters and sons definitely before daughters' came to be in the first place, for current political reasons. Before the Dance, the rules of Targaryen succession seemed to have been very lax.

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This reminds me of the thread that suggest Jon has a supperior claim to Winterfell if he is legitimzed than Arya and Sansa. This is arguable as they are trueborn and he is baseborn. Jon feels that it is Sansa's. I say I would suspect the trueborn kids and their line trump legitimized bastards. Dany probably has the superior blood claim/right and that is why Varys and illryio wanted Aegon to marry Dany so bad at this point, they say he must not marry anyone else but her. Dany.


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After reading the Sworn sword, I'm more inclined to believe that the Blackfyre's deserve the throne. Aerys gave Blackfyre to Daemon & legitimized his Bastards, Daeron was probably the Dragonknights bastard. Seems to me the Blackfyre line is the True line.



I think that's what GRRM is great at doing, making people pick & change allegiances all the time.



Could be a bit of foreshadowing that you need all three to win the war against the WW a Targ trueborn, a legitimized Bastard of the Targ line & a Blackfyre.


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This reminds me of the thread that suggest Jon has a supperior claim to Winterfell if he is legitimzed than Arya and Sansa. This is arguable as they are trueborn and he is baseborn. Jon feels that it is Sansa's. I say I would suspect the trueborn kids and their line trump legitimized bastards. Dany probably has the superior blood claim/right and that is why Varys and illryio wanted Aegon to marry Dany so bad at this point, they say he must not marry anyone else but her. Dany.

Not to get sidetracked, but the issue of Jon and Robb's will is not that Robb legitimized Jon (which Robb did) but that Robb names Jon as Robb's heir for the very purpose of ensuring that Jon would inherit ahead of Sansa. A king can name his own heir (although we have seen that a Grand Council or Civil War (DoD 1.0) can undo that naming) and the named heir is heir regardless of where the named heir otherwise would be in the line of succession. So if Robb's will comes to light, Jon is Robb's heir and thus entitled to Winterfell (ignoring whether Winterfell has been taken away from the Starks by right of conquest) unless this claim is undone by a successful challenge from another claimant (or Jon abdicates).

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After reading the Sworn sword, I'm more inclined to believe that the Blackfyre's deserve the throne. Aerys gave Blackfyre to Daemon & legitimized his Bastards, Daeron was probably the Dragonknights bastard. Seems to me the Blackfyre line is the True line.

I think that's what GRRM is great at doing, making people pick & change allegiances all the time.

Could be a bit of foreshadowing that you need all three to win the war against the WW a Targ trueborn, a legitimized Bastard of the Targ line & a Blackfyre.

What makes you think Daeron was a bastard? Naerys was a pious woman and the Dragonknight was known as a shining beacon of chivalry. Hardly the two to have an affair. If Aegon IV had wanted Daemon to follow him he would name him the heir. I agree he preferred Daemon's martial.nature to his true born sons bookishness, but that isnt saying a lot - Aegon IV was a drunken old sot, so I view his opinion with great scepticism. There is nothing to me that suggests Daeron was a bastard anyway though. Just Blackfyre propaganda
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HelenaAndTheMachine. Depends on your POV. History is written by the victors & hopefully Aegon will right the wrong that was committed against house Blackfyre!



Being serious though, the rumour about Daeron & his parents may or may not be true. Ned is a good man, but he is known now in Westeros as a traitor.


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What makes you think Daeron was a bastard? Naerys was a pious woman and the Dragonknight was known as a shining beacon of chivalry. Hardly the two to have an affair.

Why not? Shining beacons of chivalry have always had love affairs, except for Barristan apparently, and even if wishes he had told Ashara how he felt about her. And not every religious person of the Faith is a complete prude like the High Sparrow.

If Aegon IV had wanted Daemon to follow him he would name him the heir. I agree he preferred Daemon's martial.nature to his true born sons bookishness, but that isnt saying a lot - Aegon IV was a drunken old sot, so I view his opinion with great scepticism. There is nothing to me that suggests Daeron was a bastard anyway though. Just Blackfyre propaganda

Maester Aemon seemed to think that propaganda could be true, he said Daeron was Aegon's son or maybe Aemon's, depending on who you believe.

And the two of them having an affair doesn't mean Daeron was necessarily Aemon's son. Who knows? It doesn't really matter anyway. Daeron was clearly a better king. It just all drives it home how silly the hereditary principle is in the first place.

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Daeron the Good was not Aemon's son. It simply doesn't make any sense.



Aegon's supposed Blackfyre heritage will not come up at all in the next book, and certainly not in Westeros. People may doubt he's the real deal, but no one will ever suspect that this whole thing is supposed to be put a Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen on the Iron Throne.


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For this reason, the whole discussion on right to throne seems to be a moot point. There will be a fight, and whomever comes out on top, gets the nice cushy seat....

After Robert died, the discussion made sense. Since all hell broke out in Westeros, it no longer makes sense.

That's why I hate these discussions. They're so circular and depend completely on which "faction" you follow. If you're a StanStan, then clearly you believe Stannis has the only claim. If you're a DanyStan, you think she has a claim. If you're a JonStan, you believe his claim is strongest. In the end though, they all have "claim" to the throne. But who takes the throne, that'll depend entirely on who wins. It's going to be conquest, backed by blood, just like Robert's rule was conquest backed by blood.

Hopefully the new ruler can establish a steady rule with true heirs that are clearly defined and these wars will not be repeated at their death. That would be horrible. If every time the King/Queen died there was a war for succession, life would really suck for the future people of Westeros, just like it sucks for the current people.

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Daeron the Good was not Aemon's son. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Aegon's supposed Blackfyre heritage will not come up at all in the next book, and certainly not in Westeros. People may doubt he's the real deal, but no one will ever suspect that this whole thing is supposed to be put a Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen on the Iron Throne.

He's coming from Essos, a place where some Targaryens and Blackfyres have left their "seed", and he's coming back with the Golden Company, a former BF supporter. Fake or not, at least someone would suspect about it, but as it happened with the case of Daeron, they will never be able to prove it.

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As of yet, nobody has come up with th Blackfyre thing in Westeros, even those who have/had a vital interest in discrediting Aegon's claim (Kevan, Mace, Pycelle, Tarly etc.).



Since Jon Connington is vouching for the boy, the people coming up with the Blackfyre idea would not sound all that convincing. Connington was Rhaegar's friend, and he would most likely not back a Blackfyre masquerading as a Targaryen. They might suspect that he uses a fake boy to get his revenge, but not that he is part of an elaborate plan to fuck everyone in Westeros.



Connington - a Targaryen loyalist - served with the Golden Company, too. People will think that he came up with the Aegon plan during his time with the company, and recruited the GC to his cause. They are no longer considered to be Blackfyre lackeys, since everyone has reason to believe that all the Blackfyres are dead.


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The ultimate twist will be that Varys actually has proof of Daeron being a bastard, which would make the current line of Targaryens illegitimate, hence, belonging to the Blackfyres, Aegon :P

It would be a delicious irony, but even for Varys a bit of a tall order. What's he going to do produce Old Nan or some other crone to reveal the truth? ;)

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Aemon the Dragonknight;


  1. is known as the beacon of chivalry.
  2. betrayed his king and bedded with his sister the Queen, fathering Daeron II from her.
  3. was captured and put in a cage during the conquest of Dorne.
  4. served under 4 kings: Daeron I, Baelor, Viserys II and Aegon IV.
  5. died while defending his brother the King. Two members of House Toyne, who were trying to avenge the execution of Ser Terrence Toyne, were there.

Jaime the Kingslayer;


  1. is known as the disgrace of chivalry.
  2. betrayed Robert and bedded with his sister the Queen, fathering three children from her.
  3. was captured and put in a cage during the Riverlands campaign.
  4. will serve under 4 kings: Aerys II, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen.
  5. will die while killing his sister the Queen. Two members of House Stark (Sansa and Arya), who are trying to avenge the execution of Lord Eddard Stark, will be there.

Just for the sake of not wasting such a nice parallel, I'd argue that Naerys and Aemon did it. Besides, that was an awesome "fuck u" moment for the Unworthy king.


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