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Goldenhand & Becoming Azor Ahai (Spoliers)


TheSilence

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Okay so the following post is based upon information found from this Reddit post below and the following prophecies of Azor Ahai:


http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/27e5t8/spoilers_all_lord_of_light_is_a_valyrian/

This poster compares the translations of these two words from Valyrian, from where the Azor Ahai prophecy originated, to the common tongue and highlights their clear similarities.

Aeksio Onos = Lord of Light in Valyrian

Aeksion Ondos = Golden Hand in Valyrian

This classic misinterpretation of a theory when through different languages has been seen before and it's not far fetched to assume that George R R Martin could be playing off Jon Snow as a possible Azor Ahai candidate just to throw us off guard. So could Azor Ahai be infact Jaime Lannister when so many theories point to anyway but Jaime himself, particularly Jon Snow?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories - Link shows many characters possible of being the elusive Azor Ahai, but Jaime is not mentioned.



The reason behind my post is the following; to determine how Jaime Lannister could transition into a role in which he becomes Azor Ahai.

Upon being captured by the BwB, Brienne was given a choice, the noose or the sword. GRRM later revealed that when being hung by Lady Stoneheart, the word Brienne screamed was in fact 'Sword'. Later we see her escorting Jaime away from his army.



Now we have:

"Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone"



"
There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him"


"Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword.[4]He laboured for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.

The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.[5]

The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.[5]

Although he had Lightbringer, Azor Ahai did not fight alone.[6] The Jade Compendium mentions that when the hero thrust the blade through a monster, the creature burst into flame"

So my question is what do you think will occur if we assume that Jaime will fulfill the prophecy of Azor Ahai, given his current nickname of Goldenhand?

At first i wondered whether Jaime would kill Brienne, the woman he secretly loves, using Oathkeeper, but the more i considered it I thought that perhaps it would be Brienne who killed Jaime and then he was brought back by the kiss of fire. This could explain the smoke part.

However, there is an obvious magic to the whole kiss of fire almost having its own life force, so i wonder whether stabbing the person who is living via the kiss of fire would link to 'her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer'...

Please discus.


PS - I apologise this isnt the best post both in terms of layout and grammatically, however, please keep any comments in regard to Jaime in particular to prevent any deviations into old arguments.





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Serves me right for rushing. Great addition though!

Don't get me wrong,I'm interested in this kind of thing.More to the point,why Westeros,Valyria and Asshai have so many commonalities within their traditions and prophecies.Did their respective perceptions of a global event inform their mythologies and religions?

I'm not sold on this mis-translation theory yet,though I get the impression through Jaime's Feast chapters that Martin is showing us he's growing into the most suitable IT candidate.

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Isn't Azor Ahai ,well,Asshain rather than Valyrian in origin?

I agree, I'm not sure how any of this hangs together. Yes, Azor Ahai is of Asshai, but there's also the problem that Azor Ahai=/=Lord of Light, aka R'hllor. So I'm not really clear on how the name for the god of R'hllorism is being equated with the messianic figure of Azor Ahai; I don't think we have a meaning for the name "Azor Ahai."

Also (and sorry, I don't mean to be so negative!), even if it were the name and in Valyrian, on linguistic grounds I don't think the leap between ondos and ōños is likely. I looked at that Valyrian page, and the declensions for the "3rd solar" nouns makes no mention of some sort of dental infix or a change in the character of the nasal, which would be needed. Unless you're just suggesting that it sort of sounded similar to someone along the way.

ETA: There may be good grounds for making an argument that Jaime is AA reborn, some of which you've suggested in the opening post. I just don't know that the linguistic argument is the most convincing one!

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Not sure I agree 100%, but wiki "Dreams and Prophecies", and see Jaime's dream A Storm of Swords, Chapter 44, Jaime

Couple of points of interest:

* under Casterly Rock, Jaime speaks with the voices/ghosts of all the Lannisters - interesting that he noted Twyin, Cersei and Joff, but not Myrcella and Tommen - off topic, but a possible foreshadowing of Cersei's demise?

* Jaime picks up the sword that Cersei says she had given him "It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back."

* "The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

* Brienne joins him, asks for a sword and a sword appears which also lights in silver-blue flame.

* They meet with the ghosts of Jaime's Kingsguard (serving Aerys) and Rhaegar . They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. - a possible allusion to the Others?

* It doesn't look good for Jaime when the ghosts accuse him of breaking his oath to protect Aerys, but seems to suggest something positive for Brienne remaining true to her vows?... The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in

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Don't get me wrong,I'm interested in this kind of thing.More to the point,why Westeros,Valyria and Asshai have so many commonalities within their traditions and prophecies.Did their respective perceptions of a global event inform their mythologies and religions?

I'm not sold on this mis-translation theory yet,though I get the impression through Jaime's Feast chapters that Martin is showing us he's growing into the most suitable IT candidate.

Firstly apologies if my reply appeared bad-tempered, was supposed to be tongue in cheek.

Not sure I agree 100%, but wiki "Dreams and Prophecies", and see Jaime's dream A Storm of Swords, Chapter 44, Jaime

Couple of points of interest:

* under Casterly Rock, Jaime speaks with the voices/ghosts of all the Lannisters - interesting that he noted Twyin, Cersei and Joff, but not Myrcella and Tommen - off topic, but a possible foreshadowing of Cersei's demise?

* Jaime picks up the sword that Cersei says she had given him "It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back."

* "The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

* Brienne joins him, asks for a sword and a sword appears which also lights in silver-blue flame.

* They meet with the ghosts of Jaime's Kingsguard (serving Aerys) and Rhaegar . They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. - a possible allusion to the Others?

* It doesn't look good for Jaime when the ghosts accuse him of breaking his oath to protect Aerys, but seems to suggest something positive for Brienne remaining true to her vows?... The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in

Yes they are interesting additions indeed, I wonder if the sword is symbolic of something such as hope etc?

Also off the top of my head there's a vision of Brans which goes "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood". Although there's an argument for Oberyn being the man armored like the sun i believe it's Jaime.

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Firstly apologies if my reply appeared bad-tempered, was supposed to be tongue in cheek.

Yes they are interesting additions indeed, I wonder if the sword is symbolic of something such as hope etc?

Also off the top of my head there's a vision of Brans which goes "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood". Although there's an argument for Oberyn being the man armored like the sun i believe it's Jaime.

I always assumed it meant Jaime. Because the giant is most certainly unGregor. The two victims of the giant could be victims from his past, which fits the Hound and Oberyn, but I think Bran's dream-prophecies are always about future, so the Hound and the golden man are going to face the future Gregor(unGregor). Following this line of thought, I believe Cleganebowl is gonna happen sometime and Sandor will get something he wanted all his life, and Jaime will face unGregor.

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I always assumed it meant Jaime. Because the giant is most certainly unGregor. The two victims of the giant could be victims from his past, which fits the Hound and Oberyn, but I think Bran's dream-prophecies are always about future, so the Hound and the golden man are going to face the future Gregor(unGregor). Following this line of thought, I believe Cleganebowl is gonna happen sometime and Sandor will get something he wanted all his life, and Jaime will face unGregor.

What color armor did the two have?

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Don't get me wrong,I'm interested in this kind of thing.More to the point,why Westeros,Valyria and Asshai have so many commonalities within their traditions and prophecies.Did their respective perceptions of a global event inform their mythologies and religions?

I'm not sold on this mis-translation theory yet,though I get the impression through Jaime's Feast chapters that Martin is showing us he's growing into the most suitable IT candidate.

"They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

Jon 1 AGOT

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"They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

Jon 1 AGOT

Nice catch.But I doubt sitting the IT is the be all and end all.It depends what he/she says/does when the grown up arrive.

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Don't get me wrong,I'm interested in this kind of thing.More to the point,why Westeros,Valyria and Asshai have so many commonalities within their traditions and prophecies.Did their respective perceptions of a global event inform their mythologies and religions?

I'm not sold on this mis-translation theory yet,though I get the impression through Jaime's Feast chapters that Martin is showing us he's growing into the most suitable IT candidate.

I'm either being lazy or stupid...but for the life of me I can't figure out what IT stands for. Please pull me from the precipice!!!

I agree, I'm not sure how any of this hangs together. Yes, Azor Ahai is of Asshai, but there's also the problem that Azor Ahai=/=Lord of Light, aka R'hllor. So I'm not really clear on how the name for the god of R'hllorism is being equated with the messianic figure of Azor Ahai; I don't think we have a meaning for the name "Azor Ahai."

snip...

ETA: There may be good grounds for making an argument that Jaime is AA reborn, some of which you've suggested in the opening post. I just don't know that the linguistic argument is the most convincing one!

I agree with you. I'm beginning to lean more towards having to pick one or the other.....AA or TPTWP. One of these has to be leading up on a wild goose chase. If I had to pick one.....and this is purely shooting from the hip....I would hitch my saddle to the TPTWP. AA is going to be a deadend. Sorry folks, no scripture nor concrete evidence to support the belief. The only thing I do base by opinion on is the Targaryean claim and what will ultimately be where Jon Snow's story arc lands.

I'll brace for the onslaught.

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As a Jaime's historical fanboy I'd be happy to have him converted in one of the prophetized figures and go out in some blaze of glory in the end of the books...
The later, the better to me, as I want a lot of chapters of his yet.

But Cersei apart, I fear that there is little he can do on his own that an embittered, driven by his example Brienne couldn't.
So I fear that he will die an examplary death soon, at Stoneheart's hands.

And it is only my fanboy's heart speaking when I say it would be cool to see him firekissed and with an actual WORKING golden hand telling to most of other westerosi sworpeople "Daddy's hooome!"

What a worthy fight if he met with a quite clearly undead (cold handed?) Jon at the end of the things...

EDIT: adding while the post is still the last one.

The link over there adds the theory that Cold Hands is the original Azor Ahai, I like a lot the completenes of the tighting around of this crackpot!)

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  • 1 year later...

Bit of crackpottery here, but I've always wondered about this. I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but I've looked around for a while, and have not seen this idea before

 

Based on that Reddit article theorizing that Lightbringer may not be a sword but a person, I would like to posit that Tyrion is Lightbringer.  I've always thought there was a connection to AA and Tyrion based on the forging of the sword. Here are my reasons:

 

1) Tempered in Water: Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater. Tyrion's heroics at the Battle of Blackwater kept the Lannister's in a position where they could influence the future of the 7 kingdoms.  As a weapon, Tyrion's chain was a deciding factor in the battle.  In addition, once the battle was over, Tyrion was broken (his face).

 

2) Tempered in a Lion: This is where my theory began.  How many characters can be tied to directly killing a Lannister? Tyrion is first and foremost in my mind.  Killing Tywin (in addition to Shae), Tyrion was forged in the blood of the lion.  The result? Throughout ADWD, we are bombarded with Tyrion's self-destruction.  He is a broken man after what he has done.

 

3) Tempered in the heart of his love (Penny): Here is where i think WOW becomes part of his character arch. It is obvious that Tyrion most likely has feelings for Penny.  While he is a creature of lust and base needs, his care and protection of Penny is different. We know that (spoilers for WOW sample chapters) [spoiler]he saves Penny during the battle of Mereen and has serious ties to Viserion (through the cyvasse piece). Could Tyrion be set up for killing her in the future.  When AA uses Lightbringer on the monster, it erupts in fire (dragon fire?)[/spoiler]. Now, many have assumed that Penny will die somehow, but could Tyrion be the culprit? Could it be a compassion of love (I don't really know how, rape by soldiers? save her from slavery?)? Could this be the last straw that focuses Tyrion on what he truly needs to do to become more than the Halfman/The Imp?

 

All of this is complete theory on my part.  If someone else has presented this prior, I apologize, but there is only so much searching of the forum that I will do. I've done rereads looking at this, and can't find anything to disprove it, but it is still quite far out.

 

Any supposition?

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Language and it's uses, both to convey truth AND lies are a theme throughout.

I have no doubt azor ahai is a misspelt or miss translated prophecy harking back to the GOTD when humanity scattered during and after the first LN.

That's why the furthest east has the five forts, because its closest to westeros and probably connected to the LOAW.

Re Jamie and how this connects, I'd be interested to see this reddit post first before totally writing it off.

***not a horrible theory, I don't think it's a coincidence that 'The Golden' empire of the dawn has the prefix either...

Further pondering-victarions 'fire' hand, healed by a priest of the red lot insinuates they have the power to do so, and may have before.

Jon burned his hand early on and is now something he ruminates on often.
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Not sure I agree 100%, but wiki "Dreams and Prophecies", and see Jaime's dream A Storm of SwordsChapter 44, Jaime 

 

Couple of points of interest:

 

* under Casterly Rock, Jaime speaks with the voices/ghosts of all the Lannisters - interesting that he noted Twyin, Cersei and Joff, but not Myrcella and Tommen - off topic, but a possible foreshadowing of Cersei's demise? 

* Jaime picks up the sword that Cersei says she had given him "It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back."

 

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

Brienne joins him, asks for a sword and a sword appears which also lights in silver-blue flame.

 

* They meet with the ghosts of Jaime's Kingsguard (serving Aerys) and Rhaegar . They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. - a possible allusion to the Others?

 

It doesn't look good for Jaime when the ghosts accuse him of breaking his oath to protect Aerys, but seems to suggest something positive for Brienne remaining true to her vows?... The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in

 

 

 

This dream in my mind is the best evidence that Arthur Dayne is dead. 

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So with the whole "a warrior shall pull from the fire a burning sword"...

What if Mel is the fire, for obvious reasons and Jaime kills her, his sword flaming when he pulls it out...

Can you feel that? The R.L. Stine's?


Berics shown that it's the blood that sets the sword alight. So we have either Nissa being a red priestess or resurrected by a red priestess and her blood when impale by the sword set it alight.
I'm of the mind she may have been the 'first' resurrected person by fire, ever.
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