Red or Purple?

[Mithras]

“Let the cups be filled!” Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning.

Joff drinks dark Arbor red first. In the feast, not all the wines are described in detail (color or flavor etc.).

“Your Grace,” was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. It drenched his hair, stung his eyes, burned in his wound, ran down his cheeks, and soaked the velvet of his new doublet.

He pours the remaining dark Arbor red in the chalice all over Tyrion.

“Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.”

Tyrion refills the chalice with a flagon he claimed from a serving girl. The color of the wine is not mentioned. It is not poisoned yet because after drinking it, Joff goes and cuts the pie.

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”

The chalice is on the table and forgotten for some time. Joff drinks from the wine and we see that it is purple. Margaery wants to take Joff away from Tyrion but the fool lingers to eat his pie.

The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

Shortly after drinking the wine and eating Tyrion’s pie, Joffrey is poisoned. But strangely, the purple wine that ran down his chin is now said to be dark red, same as the Arbor red Joff drank before in the feast.

But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

After Joffrey dies, Tyrion checks the forgotten chalice once again and sees that there is deep purple wine in it.

What are we supposed to make from this?

[Leonardo]

Either that the strangler gives a purple tone ala the amethyst hairnet thing

Or that you're supposed to realize red wine is essentially purple.

[LordStoneheart]

purple serpents, purple venom.

[Talking Hodor]

I thought it was the purple wedding because of the color Joffrey turned as he died.

[HexMachina]

If you look at red wine, it could accurately be described as red or purple. Variation of descriptions

[Mithras]

If you look at red wine, it could accurately be described as red or purple. Variation of descriptions

But not in the same POV, by the same person, in close succession right?

[The Black Adder]

"Dark red wine" could mean

A - wine that is dark red in colour;

B - red wine that is dark.

If B, it would just be another way of saying 'dark Arbor red' - so no inconsistency. He wouldn't be describing the colour but the type of wine.

[HexMachina]

But not in the same POV, by the same person, in close succession right?

Yes. In the space of an hour I have said my walls are painted silver, grey, and metallic. Same principle.

ETA: Plus, if describing what the wine was - he is drinking red wine. Describing whay it looks like - purple wine

[The North Dismembers]

Red wine often appears purple, but it's just called red wine. For instance, white wine is green/yellow and red hair is more orange, but they're just the names they're given. If the strangler turned every drink purple it would be pretty obvious to the person drinking it, even if they didn't drink from clear glasses in Westeros

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do agree with those saying that use of the words purple and red do both refer to the wine itself. It can and does look different colors and that may depend on the where and how and what it is viewed against as well. For instance, the description of the wine running purple down Joff's throat could be because of how it is viewed running thin against his pale skin.

I do have to wonder, though, if the strangler seeds do deepen the color of this wine a bit, too. As far as we know, we have two instances of the strangler being used, both times in wine, red wine, iirc. I'm wondering if that is intentional, perhaps the seeds do bleed a bit of purple into something and it is best to use and mask it in red wine?

[John Suburbs]

We can conclude that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- specifically Tyrion's pie.

Notice how long it takes for Joffrey to react to the poison after he drinks the supposedly poisoned wine and compare that to how quickly it hit Cressen. Cressen drank, dropped the goblet and started choking. Joffrey drinks deep after the pie-cutting -- the last opportunity anyone would have to poison the wine -- then banters with Tyrion some more, Margy says something about a toast (Lord Buckler, IRRC) and then he jams a handful of pie in his mouth. Only then does he start to cough a bit.

Then he takes another slug of wine and he starts coughing more violently. He tries to take another drink and it all comes spilling back up, presumably into the chalice, as he is in the process of drinking. This accounts for the purple dregs in the chalice at the end of the chapter.

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the crystal was in the warm pie, probably already starting to dissolve from the heat and moisture. I'm not talking about the big huge pie that was wheeled in, but the single slice that was on the table. Remember, Lady Olenna, who we all agree palmed the crystal from Sansa's hairnet, was standing right there. And frankly, with the chalice being three feet tall and sitting on the high table, there is no way she could have reached the rim. Ser Garlen, maybe, but by all accounts he is a noble knight who would likely turn his nose up at poison.

Once Joff drinks the wine, the alcohol or whatever kicked the dissolution process into high gear and he got a super-concentrated does of poison down his throat.

But if this is the case, we then have to ask the next question: Why try to kill Joffrey by poisoning Tyrion's pie? Answer: They didn't. The real target at the PW was Tyrion. Joffrey, idiot that he was, just got in the way.

[Colonel Green]

We can conclude that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- specifically Tyrion's pie.

We can conclude that, but we would be wrong.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is why I don't drink...

No, seriously, I guess the venom someone dilutes into the wine and make it darker.

[aryagonnakill#2]

We can conclude that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- specifically Tyrion's pie.

Notice how long it takes for Joffrey to react to the poison after he drinks the supposedly poisoned wine and compare that to how quickly it hit Cressen. Cressen drank, dropped the goblet and started choking. Joffrey drinks deep after the pie-cutting -- the last opportunity anyone would have to poison the wine -- then banters with Tyrion some more, Margy says something about a toast (Lord Buckler, IRRC) and then he jams a handful of pie in his mouth. Only then does he start to cough a bit.

Then he takes another slug of wine and he starts coughing more violently. He tries to take another drink and it all comes spilling back up, presumably into the chalice, as he is in the process of drinking. This accounts for the purple dregs in the chalice at the end of the chapter.

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the crystal was in the warm pie, probably already starting to dissolve from the heat and moisture. I'm not talking about the big huge pie that was wheeled in, but the single slice that was on the table. Remember, Lady Olenna, who we all agree palmed the crystal from Sansa's hairnet, was standing right there. And frankly, with the chalice being three feet tall and sitting on the high table, there is no way she could have reached the rim. Ser Garlen, maybe, but by all accounts he is a noble knight who would likely turn his nose up at poison.

Once Joff drinks the wine, the alcohol or whatever kicked the dissolution process into high gear and he got a super-concentrated does of poison down his throat.

But if this is the case, we then have to ask the next question: Why try to kill Joffrey by poisoning Tyrion's pie? Answer: They didn't. The real target at the PW was Tyrion. Joffrey, idiot that he was, just got in the way.

No... we can't conclude that, because GRRM said that Olenna poisoned the wine and that it was called the purple wedding because of the wine, thats GRRM's words, no reason to disagree.

[Mychel_Redfort]

This quote makes me wonder :

But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

It's a Tyrion POV, yet GRRM doesn't tell us what he's thinking here. Why does Tyrion pour the remaining wine on the floor? It looks like he's guessing the wine is poisoned, but decides to destruct the piece of evidence.

[John Suburbs]

No... we can't conclude that, because GRRM said that Olenna poisoned the wine and that it was called the purple wedding because of the wine, thats GRRM's words, no reason to disagree.

You can't conclude anything that GRRM says because he is talking about the show, not the book, which are now wildly divergent.

[Light a wight tonight]

We can conclude that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- specifically Tyrion's pie.

Basically you can conclude that. It's definitely a minority conclusion.

I have yet to see a convincing argument about how Tyrion's portion of the pie (they aren't individual pies) can be poisoned without poisoning the other guests. On the other hand there's a clear trail of circumstantial evidence pointing to the wine.

[Mithras]

This quote makes me wonder :

It's a Tyrion POV, yet GRRM doesn't tell us what he's thinking here. Why does Tyrion pour the remaining wine on the floor? It looks like he's guessing the wine is poisoned, but decides to destruct the piece of evidence.

This bugs me as well. Yeah, Tyrion drank too much wine but he didnot act like a drunk.

[Colonel Green]

Basically you can conclude that. It's definitely a minority conclusion.

I have yet to see a convincing argument about how Tyrion's portion of the pie (they aren't individual pies) can be poisoned without poisoning the other guests. On the other hand there's a clear trail of circumstantial evidence pointing to the wine.

I've yet to see a convincing argument for why there should be an elaborate conspiracy to kill Tyrion at the wedding, either, since unlike with Joffrey's murder there's no reason for it, it actively works against Littlefinger's other goal of providing cover for Sansa's escape, it doesn't at all fit with the Tyrells' desire to deflect blame elsewhere, and the timing doesn't work, since the plan was already in motion at the of A Clash of Kings.

[John Suburbs]

Basically you can conclude that. It's definitely a minority conclusion.

I have yet to see a convincing argument about how Tyrion's portion of the pie (they aren't individual pies) can be poisoned without poisoning the other guests. On the other hand there's a clear trail of circumstantial evidence pointing to the wine.

I know I'm in the minority, that's why a love this theory so much. :)

So, it's perfectly simple for someone to drop a crystal into a three-foot chalice sitting front-and-center at the high table in a room full of 200 people, but not slip it into a three-inch piece of pie sitting in the back? Obviously, the huge pie they wheeled in wasn't poisoned. I doubt it was even served to anyone since it had live birds crawling around in it. But the individual piece that was placed at Tyrion's seat could easily have been poisoned, either as it was being delivered or after it had been set down.

I've yet to see a convincing argument for why there should be an elaborate conspiracy to kill Tyrion at the wedding, either, since unlike with Joffrey's murder there's no reason for it, it actively works against Littlefinger's other goal of providing cover for Sansa's escape, it doesn't at all fit with the Tyrells' desire to deflect blame elsewhere, and the timing doesn't work, since the plan was already in motion at the of A Clash of Kings.

Tyrion is only one drunken night away from producing a Lannister heir to Winterfell, which would give Tywin control of more than half the kingdom and leave him sitting right on Highgarden's northern border. As well, a married Sansa fouls up Littlefinger's plans for the north because she is not free to marry Harry the Heir or anyone else as long as she is married to Tyrion. The sounder plan, then, is to kill Tyrion, rather than kill Joffrey and then hope the convoluted events at the wedding that even LF could not have predicted somehow wind up implicating him (Tyrion).

By the same token, I see no compelling reason for either Lady O or LF to kill Joffrey. He does not pose any threat to margy, and in fact seems pretty jazzed that he's getting to marry a hot 17-year-old rather than mopey, childish Sansa. A dead Joffrey also pushes back Highgarden's plans for the Iron Throne because now they have to wait at least three years before Tommen can marry and then maybe another year for a baby. A lot can happen in three years. Why ruin a sure thing for an unpredictable future? The time to kill Joffrey would be after a royal heir is born and Margy is firmly established as the Queen Mother.

From Littlefinger's POV, killing Joffrey simply shifts power from foolish but utterly malleable Joffrey to Tywin. If his goal is chaos, why remove the most chaotic piece in the game?

And no matter who dies, it still provides cover for Sansa's escape and blame would automatically deflect to her because she is missing.

And the timing does work, for LF at least, because once Tyrion becomes HotK he is in a position to uncover all of LF's shady dealings, and most likely the fact that maybe half the gold that the crown owes the IB is sitting in LF's account at the very same bank. LF, BTW, has been trying to remove Tyrion from the game since early in GoT, at least.