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Red or Purple?


Mithras

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The sounder plan, then, is to kill Tyrion, rather than kill Joffrey and then hope the convoluted events at the wedding that even LF could not have predicted somehow wind up implicating him (Tyrion).

Except the Littlefinger arranged a ton of stuff for the specific purpose of implicating Tyrion, like the jousting dwarfs. It is rather contrived how well it worked out, but that's true of many of Littlefinger's plans (and other plans in this series, for that matter).

The time to kill Joffrey would be after a royal heir is born and Margy is firmly established as the Queen Mother.

No, that's not the time to kill Joffrey, because their motive would be much more obvious.

From Littlefinger's POV, killing Joffrey simply shifts power from foolish but utterly malleable Joffrey to Tywin. If his goal is chaos, why remove the most chaotic piece in the game?

Littlefinger's goal in killing Joffrey was not to produce chaos. Indeed, he himself later states that he had hoped for several more years to arrange things, but unseen things like Tywin's death and Cersei's spectacularly stupid governance had accelerated his timetable.

And no matter who dies, it still provides cover for Sansa's escape

No it doesn't. Sansa is sitting right next to Tyrion. Everyone would be staring at him, and thus at her as well.

And the timing does work, for LF at least, because once Tyrion becomes HotK

Tyrion was dismissed as Hand by the time Sansa got the necklace, and as Master of Coin he was drowning himself in misery and drink. Moreover, Littlefinger's plan already accounts for Tyrion anyway.

None of this explains why it has to happen at a wedding, either (it's directly counterproductive to Sansa's escape, as already pointed out).

The Tyrells' motivations don't make sense either in this version. The plan was in motion by the end of ACOK, and there's no reason to bring them onboard as late as they would have to have been by your theory, particularly as Sansa marrying Tyrion, which you claim is the reason they're involved, happened only a couple of weeks before, and only happened because of the Tyrells' own actions. Moreover, unlike with the setup for Joffrey's murder with the framing of Sansa/Tyrion, there's no fall-guy for the death of Tyrion by poisoning at the wedding, and if, as this theory claims, the Tyrells intended to rush and claim the now-widowed Sansa, it would be immediately obvious to anyone with half a brain that it was them who did it.

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Either that the strangler gives a purple tone ala the amethyst hairnet thing

Or that you're supposed to realize red wine is essentially purple.

And if your poison has such an immediate, dramatic effect, it's a really lousy poison, and we know the Strangler isn't. So it's very probably because red wine could also be described as purple.

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So, it's perfectly simple for someone to drop a crystal into a three-foot chalice sitting front-and-center at the high table in a room full of 200 people

Except that while Joffrey was freeing the pigeons from the pie and everybody looked at him below the dais, the chalice was on Tyrion's table, with Olenna, Garlan, and Leonette Tyrell nearby...

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I know I'm in the minority, that's why a love this theory so much. :)

By the same token, I see no compelling reason for either Lady O or LF to kill Joffrey. He does not pose any threat to margy, and in fact seems pretty jazzed that he's getting to marry a hot 17-year-old rather than mopey, childish Sansa. A dead Joffrey also pushes back Highgarden's plans for the Iron Throne because now they have to wait at least three years before Tommen can marry and then maybe another year for a baby. A lot can happen in three years. Why ruin a sure thing for an unpredictable future? The time to kill Joffrey would be after a royal heir is born and Margy is firmly established as the Queen Mother.

As long as you realize that your theory is your own and don't get upset that the world doesn't trip over its own feet in the rush to join you all is cool. Not everyone can take that mature an attitude.

One thing about the plan to off Joff is that the Tyrells don't want Margaery subject to Joff's demonstrable viciousness. Do you really believe that Lady Olenna discounted Sansa's revelation of his nature? If Joff had hurt Marg hotblooded Loras would doubtless done a Jaime and Aerys re-enactment.

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Except that while Joffrey was freeing the pigeons from the pie and everybody looked at him below the dais, the chalice was on Tyrion's table, with Olenna, Garlan, and Leonette Tyrell nearby...

In my recent re-read of Tyrion I came upon this passage, ASOS-Chapter 66:

Sighing, he turned back to the table, and dipped the quill again. Sansa, he wrote upon the parchment. He sat staring at the name, his teeth clenched so hard they hurt.

Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?

And yet...where would Sansa have gotten poison? He could not believe the girl had acted alone in this.Do I really want to find her? Would the judges believe that Tyrion's child bride had poisoned a king without her husband's knowledge? I wouldn't. Cersei would insist that they had done the deed together.

So, the chalice was set down on the table between Tyrion and Sansa, being closer to Sansa. This means if the poisoner was Garlan or Leonette, they would not only of had to lean in front of Tyrion to put in the poison, they would have had to actually lean OVER Tyrion. There is no way they could have put the poison in without Tyrion noticing. Even after Tyrion had turned back to Sansa to leave. Alas, everything in the story points to Sansa being the poisoner, except Sansa's infamous memory.

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Except the Littlefinger arranged a ton of stuff for the specific purpose of implicating Tyrion, like the jousting dwarfs. It is rather contrived how well it worked out, but that's true of many of Littlefinger's plans (and other plans in this series, for that matter).

No, that's not the time to kill Joffrey, because their motive would be much more obvious.

Littlefinger's goal in killing Joffrey was not to produce chaos. Indeed, he himself later states that he had hoped for several more years to arrange things, but unseen things like Tywin's death and Cersei's spectacularly stupid governance had accelerated his timetable.

No it doesn't. Sansa is sitting right next to Tyrion. Everyone would be staring at him, and thus at her as well.

Tyrion was dismissed as Hand by the time Sansa got the necklace, and as Master of Coin he was drowning himself in misery and drink. Moreover, Littlefinger's plan already accounts for Tyrion anyway.

None of this explains why it has to happen at a wedding, either (it's directly counterproductive to Sansa's escape, as already pointed out).

The Tyrells' motivations don't make sense either in this version. The plan was in motion by the end of ACOK, and there's no reason to bring them onboard as late as they would have to have been by your theory, particularly as Sansa marrying Tyrion, which you claim is the reason they're involved, happened only a couple of weeks before, and only happened because of the Tyrells' own actions. Moreover, unlike with the setup for Joffrey's murder with the framing of Sansa/Tyrion, there's no fall-guy for the death of Tyrion by poisoning at the wedding, and if, as this theory claims, the Tyrells intended to rush and claim the now-widowed Sansa, it would be immediately obvious to anyone with half a brain that it was them who did it.

The jousting dwarfs was a nice touch, but unless everything else worked out exactly as planned -- ie, the placement of the chalice, T and J both rising to the bait, Tyrion not being able to slip away to change clothes -- than it hardly provides a motive for regicide.

Joffrey could be offed at any time with nothing to implicate the Tyrells. A staged crossbow incident, another poisoning... There will undoubtedly be suspicion, but without proof, margy's son becomes king and she becomes regent.

LF has already shown how easy it is to manipulate Joffrey -- much easier than Tywin or even Cersei. Joffrey on the throne gives LF the most leverage to control events, even from the Aerie.

Tyrion choking would have been quite a spectacle as Garlen, Loras or someone rushing to help him. Plenty of cover to make the getaway.

Whether Hand, MoC or a motely fool, Tyrion is still one of the cleverest players in the game, which is why LF fears him so much. The necklace was delivered very early in the plot, but as LF explained it, it was a matter of putting all the pieces in place. He knew he wanted to cause a commotion at the wedding so Sansa could get away without Varys finding out how, and my guess is he had Tyrion pegged all along, but that doesn't mean the Tyrells were on board yet or that LF had all the details worked out. The marriage to Sansa and the RW that left her as sole surviving Stark made it imperative to both LF and LO that Tyrion had to go.

And I never claimed that the Tyrell's wanted to claim Sansa after the wedding. That ship sailed when the Willas plot fell apart, so LO made a simple calculation that Sansa in the hands of LF was a better bargain for House Tyrell than Sansa in the hands of Tywin Lannister.

Except that while Joffrey was freeing the pigeons from the pie and everybody looked at him below the dais, the chalice was on Tyrion's table, with Olenna, Garlan, and Leonette Tyrell nearby...

It was all one table IIRC. The highest part sat Joff, Margy, Tywin, Cersei, Mace and Lady Tyrell, but the rest of stretched out for other family members. But either way, the chalice is still three feet tall. To get an idea of how difficult that would be to do without anyone noticing, stand a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table and then try to reach the top without standing or making some other obvious movement. Could it be done? Perhaps, but wow, what an awfully huge risk to take when the consequences of discovery are the complete destruction of your 6000-year-old house a la the Reynes of Castamere.

Plus you have the extremely high likelihood that Margy would have to drink from the chalice as well, considering this is the Wedding Pie, not just an ordinary course. Big cutting ceremony, "Come, my love, Lord Buckler wants to toast us"... She would either be forced to drink, as chivalry would dictate 'ladies first,' or beg off only to then have the entire room witness Joffrey's death from the suddenly poisoned wine. This is simply way too much risk for Lady Olenna.

However easy you think it is to poison the wine, it's that much easier to poison the pie.

As long as you realize that your theory is your own and don't get upset that the world doesn't trip over its own feet in the rush to join you all is cool. Not everyone can take that mature an attitude.

One thing about the plan to off Joff is that the Tyrells don't want Margaery subject to Joff's demonstrable viciousness. Do you really believe that Lady Olenna discounted Sansa's revelation of his nature? If Joff had hurt Marg hotblooded Loras would doubtless done a Jaime and Aerys re-enactment.

Both Margy and Lady O completely brush off any threat to Margy during Sansa's POV. If they are concerned about it in even the slightest, there is no evidence of it.

Remember, Sansa was only mistreated following Robb's victories in the field. With the Lannisters and Tyrells now allies, there is no motivation for Joffrey to be cruel to Margy. In fact, all his actions during and before the wedding indicate he's pleased as punch to be marrying her and not Sansa. Perhaps that will change in the future, but a seasoned political player like Lady O is not going to agree to a high-risk, high-consequence action like regicide just because of what might happen in the future. Give the old gal a little credit.

And to one and all, I ask that you riddle me this after you've reread the entire scene:

If the wine was poisoned during the pie ceremony, and it dissolves as quickly as the CoK prologue suggests, why did it only take an immediate and violent affect the second time Joffrey drank?

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Alas, everything in the story points to Sansa being the poisoner, except Sansa's infamous memory.

That's, if anything, an even sillier theory (and would also involve Dontos and Littlefinger, independent of each other, figuring out that she'd "forgotten" about it, despite them knowing nothing about her mental state).

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That's, if anything, an even sillier theory (and would also involve Dontos and Littlefinger, independent of each other, figuring out that she'd "forgotten" about it, despite them knowing nothing about her mental state).

You know, it actually isn't silly at all. Here, from chapter 61 of ASOS is the total conversation between Sansa and Dontos about what happened:

Sansa pulled away from his touch. "You said I must wear the hair net. The silver net with...what sort of stones are those?"

"Amethysts. Black amethysts from Asshai, my lady."

"They're no amethysts. Are they? Are they? You lied."

"Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them."

"There was murder in them!"

"Softly, my lady, softly. No murder. He choked on his pigeon pie." Dontos chortled. "Oh, tasty tasty pie. Silver and stones, that's all it was, silver and stone and magic."

The bells were tolling, and the wind was making a noise like he had made as he tried to suck a breath of air. "You poisoned him. You did. You took a stone from my hair..."

"Hush, you'll be the death of us. I did nothing. Come, we must away, they'll search for you. Your husband's been arrested."

"Tyrion?" she said, shocked.

"Do you have another husband? The Imp, the dwarf uncle, she thinks he did it." He grabbed her hand and pulled at her. "This way, we must away, quickly now, have no fear."

Dontos, who was so drunk Sansa had to prop him up, doesn't think too deeply on the implications of what Sansa is saying except to deny he did anything. Shortly after this Dontos was dead so we have no idea what he may have thought about what Sansa had to say when/if he sobered up. The conversation with Littlefinger is more deceptive than it appears. Littlefinger fails to offer a name until Sansa herself has supplied one. Only then does he give reasons why Olenna would want to poison Joffrey. Really, would Littlefinger lie?

I was shocked when I realized that Sansa was the one who poisoned Joffrey (and I am completely confident she did). The idea that Sansa was the one who actually put the poison in the chalice is not silly nor crackpot. The number of people believing a thing does not make it more or less true. Since there is not at least a solid minority who think Sansa poisoned Joffrey, I am unlikely to convince many people. Thus the only thing I can do is wait until the next book is released and see what happens.

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I was shocked when I realized that Sansa was the one who poisoned Joffrey (and I am completely confident she did). The idea that Sansa was the one who actually put the poison in the chalice is not silly nor crackpot. The number of people believing a thing does not make it more or less true. Since there is not at least a solid minority who think Sansa poisoned Joffrey, I am unlikely to convince many people. Thus the only thing I can do is wait until the next book is released and see what happens.

But, if Sansa did poison Joffrey, why would she be filled with terror when she discovers an amethyst is missing in her net ?

When she pulled it free, her long auburn hair cascaded down her back and across her shoulders. The web of spun silver hung from her fingers, the fine metal glimmering softly, the stones back in the moonlight. Black amethysts from Asshai. One of them was missing. Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out.

A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath. Why am I so scared, it's only an amethyst, a black amethyst from Asshai, no more than that. It must have been loose in the setting, that's all. It was loose and it fell out, and now it's lying somewhere in the throne room, or in the yard, unless...

Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey's wedding feast. The silver wire stretched tight across her knuckles. Her thumb rubbed back and forth against the hole where the stone had been. She tried to stop, but her fingers were not her own. Her thumb was drawn to the hole as the tongue is drawn to a missing tooth. What kind of magic? The king was dead, the cruel king who had been her gallant prince a thousand years ago.

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The conversation with Littlefinger is more deceptive than it appears.

No, it's not. Littlefinger knows nothing about Sansa's mental state. If he had enlisted her into a scheme to kill Joffrey prior to that (via Dontos), he'd be expecting a willing conspirator.

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Sorry bent, you've lost me on this one. Are you saying Sansa somehow got the gem back from Lady O and then dropped it into the chalice? If so, why is she 1) surprised that the gem is missing from the hairnet, and 2) is accusing SD of taking it and poisoning the king? And why would they need Lady O to palm it in the first place if Sansa is to be the poisoner anyway?



Maybe give us your timeline as to how it all went down and it will make more sense.



But again, I urge all of you to first, reread Cressen's death and note how fast the Strangler worked after he took the fatal sip -- just a sip, mind you -- then reread the PW and note that Joffrey suffered no effect at all after he took that long, deep drink following the pie-cutting ceremony. Nothing was amiss until he ate the pie and he started to cough slightly, then went into convulsions when he took the second drink with the pie in his mouth. If the Strangler was in the wine, Joffrey should have been on the floor by the time Margy finished her sentence about Lord Buckley's toast.


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But again, I urge all of you to first, reread Cressen's death and note how fast the Strangler worked after he took the fatal sip -- just a sip, mind you -- then reread the PW and note that Joffrey suffered no effect at all after he took that long, deep drink following the pie-cutting ceremony. Nothing was amiss until he ate the pie and he started to cough slightly, then went into convulsions when he took the second drink with the pie in his mouth. If the Strangler was in the wine, Joffrey should have been on the floor by the time Margy finished her sentence about Lord Buckley's toast.

As you said, I did reread the two scenes, and I still don't find the differences are so blatant. Melisandre too has time to say a sentence before Cressen begins to cough. I agree Joffrey drinks more wine than Cressen, and he reacts to the poison slighty later, but it's still a handful of seconds in both cases, and Joffrey is more healthy and resistant than Cressen.

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I think it's quite a big time discrepancy:



Cressen takes a sip, "only half a swallow", which would only take a second, then he drops the cup, another second. Mel then says: "He does have power here, my lord. And fire cleanses" I give that statement five seconds, tops. Cressen goes to speak, but his throat is already closed. So I'll be generous and give it 10 seconds to go from drink to the first signs of poisoning, and it was probably less because it was already at work by the time he went to speak, so it probably took affect while Mel was speaking.



Joffrey, on the other hand, drinks "long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin." Vague description here, but certainly more than a second, agreed? Three perhaps? Five? Then Margaery says: "My lord, we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us," I give that another five seconds, maybe seven. Joff says: My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." He grabs a piece of pie and says "It's ill luck not to eat the pie." Then he stuffs it into his gob. I give that whole sequence another seven seconds. So we're talking perhaps twice as long between the two scenarios. All things being equal, Joff should have started choking before Margy finished her sentence.



But once Joffrey eats the pie, the effect is almost immediate. And then when he drinks the wine after eating the pie, the violent coughing starts.



Cressen is older, sure, but Joffrey is smaller and weighs less. If a 60-year-old man and a 14-year-old boy are both bitten by the same king cobra, which one would die first?


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If red wines can look purple and if the wine Joffrey drank had this shifting colors of red and purple on three occasions as given in the text, cannot that mean that the color shift was natural and there was no poison in the wine?


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If red wines can look purple and if the wine Joffrey drank had this shifting colors of red and purple on three occasions as given in the text, cannot that mean that the color shift was natural and there was no poison in the wine?

Or the poison doesn't change the wine colour, and the wine was just described differently on each occasion, and the poison was in the wine.

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I think it's quite a big time discrepancy:

Cressen takes a sip, "only half a swallow", which would only take a second, then he drops the cup, another second. Mel then says: "He does have power here, my lord. And fire cleanses" I give that statement five seconds, tops. Cressen goes to speak, but his throat is already closed. So I'll be generous and give it 10 seconds to go from drink to the first signs of poisoning, and it was probably less because it was already at work by the time he went to speak, so it probably took affect while Mel was speaking.

Joffrey, on the other hand, drinks "long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin." Vague description here, but certainly more than a second, agreed? Three perhaps? Five? Then Margaery says: "My lord, we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us," I give that another five seconds, maybe seven. Joff says: My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." He grabs a piece of pie and says "It's ill luck not to eat the pie." Then he stuffs it into his gob. I give that whole sequence another seven seconds. So we're talking perhaps twice as long between the two scenarios. All things being equal, Joff should have started choking before Margy finished her sentence.

But once Joffrey eats the pie, the effect is almost immediate. And then when he drinks the wine after eating the pie, the violent coughing starts.

Cressen is older, sure, but Joffrey is smaller and weighs less. If a 60-year-old man and a 14-year-old boy are both bitten by the same king cobra, which one would die first?

Yeah, you're the only one who believes this...but you must be right.

"“GRRM : It’s what the fans call the Purple Wedding, based on the color of the wine, which plays a big part.”"

But yeah, i'm sure the author is wrong.

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I thought it was the purple wedding because of the color Joffrey turned as he died.

He turned red, I checked ;)

It's a Tyrion POV, yet GRRM doesn't tell us what he's thinking here. Why does Tyrion pour the remaining wine on the floor? It looks like he's guessing the wine is poisoned, but decides to destruct the piece of evidence.

Safety precaution, lest more people die of it?

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The Purple Wedding is so called because the Strangler gems in Sansa's hairnet were purple. Olenna and the Tyrells poisoned Joffrey's wine when everyone was distracted by the pie.

Given that the pie was for EVERYONE and it's impossible to control which exact piece of a bigass pie that a specific person is given, I see no logic in assuming the pie was poisoned, especially when the author is on record implicating the wine.

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