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Red or Purple?


Mithras

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Given that the pie was for EVERYONE and it's impossible to control which exact piece of a bigass pie that a specific person is given, I see no logic in assuming the pie was poisoned, especially when the author is on record implicating the wine.

That is a popular misunderstanding. The pie Joff cut was only for show. Guests were served pies that were baked in all the available bakeries in the capitol and freshly delivered to the RK. They were very hot as they were served.

I think it is quite controllable to give a specific pie to a specific person if you are the right person.

“My lady,” said Shae wistfully. “Couldn’t I come serve at table? I so want to see the pigeons fly out of the pie.”

Sansa looked at her uncertainly. “The queen has chosen all the servers.”

Why this bit of information was given?

Like the service, the wedding feast was modest. Lady Alerie had made all the arrangements;

Why did Cersei give up to be a wedding planner in Tommen’s wedding?

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This isn't debatable. The poison came from the hairnet after the pie had been baked. There is zero chance to somehow insert that poison into the specific pie that Joffrey was about to eat without it being blatantly obvious the pie had been tampered with.


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[Martin pauses for a moment.] You've read the books?



Yes.


Who kills Joffrey?



That killing happens early in this fourth season. The books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey.


In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.



The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.



Why is George not confirming the show canon as book canon and specifically pointing that he might have more surprises to reveal?


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My lady, said Shae wistfully. Couldnt I come serve at table? I so want to see the pigeons fly out of the pie.

Sansa looked at her uncertainly. The queen has chosen all the servers.

Why this bit of information was given?

OK, let's assume Cersei schemed with the server to give Tyrion the poisoned part. There's even some lemon cream for the Strangler to dissolve.

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."

But why would Cersei assume Tyrion would necessarily eat the pie, with her coming with the idea of serving seventy-seven dishes?

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But why would Cersei assume Tyrion would necessarily eat the pie, with her coming with the idea of serving seventy-seven dishes?

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon.

In a feast where 77 dishes were served, most people will skip a lot of them but the traditional pigeon pie should be eaten by all.

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In a feast where 77 dishes were served, most people will skip a lot of them but the traditional pigeon pie should be eaten by all.

Yet Tyrion was about to leave without eating it. So it's not a very effective way to poison someone... wait, if it was Cersei's idea, that's actually an argument in favor of the theory ;)

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Why is George not confirming the show canon as book canon and specifically pointing that he might have more surprises to reveal?

"I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?"

"The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate."

You've taken that quote of surprises completely out of context. He's talking about motives and redemption. He's trying to make a point how people do bad things (like poisoning a young boy) for good reasons (that boy is a sociopath who would run the kingdom into the ground, or perhaps kill the poisoners family). I don't doubt the possibility we may hear more details about the Purple Wedding plot and why it happened, but I doubt 100% that GRRM intends to 'reveal' a 'surprise' such as who poisoned Joff and how.

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“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon.

In a feast where 77 dishes were served, most people will skip a lot of them but the traditional pigeon pie should be eaten by all.

Wouldn't cersei think about her killing her son by accident, at least once?

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The Purple Wedding is so called because the Strangler gems in Sansa's hairnet were purple. Olenna and the Tyrells poisoned Joffrey's wine when everyone was distracted by the pie.

Given that the pie was for EVERYONE and it's impossible to control which exact piece of a bigass pie that a specific person is given, I see no logic in assuming the pie was poisoned, especially when the author is on record implicating the wine.

No, the poison was not in the bigass pie, it was placed in the piece that was delivered to Tyrion, most likely after it had been placed. I don't think anyone got a piece of the bigass pie since it had live birds in it. I certainly wouldn't eat it.

Yeah, you're the only one who believes this...but you must be right.

"“GRRM : It’s what the fans call the Purple Wedding, based on the color of the wine, which plays a big part.”"

But yeah, i'm sure the author is wrong.

The timelines are crystal clear, so belief isn't a factor here: If they were happening side by side, Master Cressen would have started choking before Margaery got three words out of her mouth. Why so fast in one case and so slow in the other?

And you're quote is silly: "It's what the fans call the Purple Wedding..." Sure, that's what the fans say, but in no way is he referring to the truth of the matter.

There are even better quotes from GR supporting the wine theory out there, but most of those came after the episode aired, so I contend he is either only talking about the show or, yes, he's intentionally deceiving you to set you up for the Big Reveal later. What a meanie he is.

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The timelines are crystal clear, so belief isn't a factor here: If they were happening side by side, Master Cressen would have started choking before Margaery got three words out of her mouth. Why so fast in one case and so slow in the other?

And you're quote is silly: "It's what the fans call the Purple Wedding..." Sure, that's what the fans say, but in no way is he referring to the truth of the matter.

There are even better quotes from GR supporting the wine theory out there, but most of those came after the episode aired, so I contend he is either only talking about the show or, yes, he's intentionally deceiving you to set you up for the Big Reveal later. What a meanie he is.

A young teen's immune system is probably much better than a very old man's. So why not add another 20 seconds? Very plausible.

And sure, he mentions how important the wine is to the wedding while never mentioning the pie, for nothing...of course!

Add the whole "necklace/poison came from the Tyrell's who clearly wanted Joff dead...." thing and this theory becomes crap (to me anyways).

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"I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?"

"The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate."

You've taken that quote of surprises completely out of context. He's talking about motives and redemption. He's trying to make a point how people do bad things (like poisoning a young boy) for good reasons (that boy is a sociopath who would run the kingdom into the ground, or perhaps kill the poisoners family). I don't doubt the possibility we may hear more details about the Purple Wedding plot and why it happened, but I doubt 100% that GRRM intends to 'reveal' a 'surprise' such as who poisoned Joff and how.

Regardless of the context, he is not confirming the show canon as book canon. He is saying that he may have more surprises in the remaining books.

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Easy thing:



1. Tyrion, who is the narrator of all this, is heavily drunk and pissed. He might not have had a precise grasp of all the colors. From his POV, the wine running down Joff's chin looked purple. Perhaps due to the colors of the clothes Joff wore?



2. The Strangler is heavier than water/wine. When it was put into the chalice, it sank to the bottom and dissolved there. Considering that the Strangler-makers wouldn't have been modern-day pill makers, my guess is that it dissolved somewhat slowly and irregularly. When Joff dropped the chalice, most of the wine was spilled, and only a very small portion remained. If the Stranger had not yet fully dissolved in the wine, it would still dissolve further in this 'concentrated portion of Strangler wine'. This portion then turned visibly into deep purple due to the fact that a lot of the remaining Strangler continued to dissolve in only a fraction of the wine.


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But, if Sansa did poison Joffrey, why would she be filled with terror when she discovers an amethyst is missing in her net ?

To me, the question is if Sansa isn't the one who poisoned Joffrey, why is she so terrified? In the section you quoted, Sansa makes note that if the amethyst had simply fallen out of the hair net, then there was no way anyone would associate a random gemstone with Joffrey's death. Even if that loose gemstone was subsequently proven to be poison, if it was simply lying loose on the floor it obviously hadn't poisoned Joffrey. So why is Sansa so terrified at the gemstone not being there.

Before the PW the hair net is mentioned twice. The first time is in chapter 65-ACOK when Dontos gives Sansa the hairnet and tells her:

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengence for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home."

The second time occurs in ASOS-Chapter 16 when Sansa has just told Dontos that she doesn't want to go through with the plan. Dontos tells her and Sansa replies:

"You cannot! in a voice as thick with horror as with wine. "I tell you, these Tyrells are only Lannisters with flowers. I beg of you, forget this folly, give your Florian a kiss, and promise you'll go ahead as we have planned. The night of Joffrey's wedding, that's not so long, wear the silver hair net and do as I told you, and afterward we make our escape." Sansa slipped from his grasp and stepped away from him. "I won't. I can't. Something would go wrong. When I wanted to escape you wouldn't take me, and now I don't need to."

From the first quote we see that the magic hair net would bring Sansa justice, vengence and home, and from the second quote we see that Sansa not only needed to wear the hair net, but also do something with the hair net. From Sansa's terror afterward we can assume that she did it. Even though Sansa left the feast before Joffrey was dead, she never questions that her hair net and Joffrey's death are connected. In order to explain the missing amethyst Sansa thinks first of it just falling out. Then she wonders if the hair net was crafted by grumkins and she had wished Joffrey dead. Then Sansa wonders if Tyrion knew of her hair net and somehow he had poisoned Joffrey. What we see here is not Sansa figuring out that the amethyst killed Joffrey (she realizes that from the beginning), but Sansa trying to craft a story about what happened that she could deal with.

No, it's not. Littlefinger knows nothing about Sansa's mental state. If he had enlisted her into a scheme to kill Joffrey prior to that (via Dontos), he'd be expecting a willing conspirator.

When Sansa asks Littlefinger if he had moved Dontos to poison Joffrey (which Littlefinger denied), Littlefinger went through that whole charade with Sansa about bringing up Kettleblack and having her guess who he was, etc. I think this was a delaying tactic, because he was expecting a willing conspirator and wasn't sure how to react to the situation. Then when he tells Sansa, "I'll wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened for you." he closes the loop and gets Sansa to name someone who had actually touched her hair. Now that Littlefinger has a name, he talked some more trash until he thought of a reason why Olenna would want to poison Joffrey. Littlefinger needed to keep Sansa sweet, and if letting her keep her delusions kept her sweet then that was what Littlefinger was going to do. btw, In all of Sansa's wondering about how the amethyst got into the chalice, Sansa doesn't think about how the amethyst got from her hair net into the poisoner's hand. This is very telling.

Sorry bent, you've lost me on this one. Are you saying Sansa somehow got the gem back from Lady O and then dropped it into the chalice? If so, why is she 1) surprised that the gem is missing from the hairnet, and 2) is accusing SD of taking it and poisoning the king? And why would they need Lady O to palm it in the first place if Sansa is to be the poisoner anyway?

Maybe give us your timeline as to how it all went down and it will make more sense.

But again, I urge all of you to first, reread Cressen's death and note how fast the Strangler worked after he took the fatal sip -- just a sip, mind you -- then reread the PW and note that Joffrey suffered no effect at all after he took that long, deep drink following the pie-cutting ceremony. Nothing was amiss until he ate the pie and he started to cough slightly, then went into convulsions when he took the second drink with the pie in his mouth. If the Strangler was in the wine, Joffrey should have been on the floor by the time Margy finished her sentence about Lord Buckley's toast.

Lady Olenna never had the amethyst so there was no need for Sansa to get it back from her. During the wedding feast Tyrion noticed that Sansa was playing with her hair. Sansa took out the amethyst herself. Sansa is in denial about what she has done.

Well, since I think the poison was in the wine I don't know if my timeline will help, but I think the poison was put in the chalice between the time Joffrey set it down on the table to go cut the pie and when Tyrion turned to Sansa to leave. As I pointed out in the quote from the Tyrion chapter upthread, Joffrey sat the chalice down near Sansa's place at the table. Sansa drew Tyrion's attention away from the chalice and when he turned back to Sansa to leave the chalice was once again in his line of sight. The poison had to be put in the chalice during the time period Tyrion was not looking at it. As Tyrion noted, Sansa must have been the one to do it.

As to why the poison killed Cressen more quickly than it killed Joffrey, Cressen put the poison in a half full regular sized goblet while Sansa put the poison in a mostly full large size chalice. Therefore, the poison that Cressen took was a more concentrated form of the poison and worked slightly faster.

ETA more response to John Suburbs.

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If Martin's confirmation wasn't enough, perhaps the Ghost of High Heart's is.

"I dreamt a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

Her visions about the dead kings are pretty spot on and she says nothing about the pie.

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A young teen's immune system is probably much better than a very old man's. So why not add another 20 seconds? Very plausible.

And sure, he mentions how important the wine is to the wedding while never mentioning the pie, for nothing...of course!

Add the whole "necklace/poison came from the Tyrell's who clearly wanted Joff dead...." thing and this theory becomes crap (to me anyways).

I'm also wondering if anyone has considered the amount of strangler put into each cup of wine. IIRC, it does seem as Cressen used pinches of the cyrstals, ie, more than one. Granted, the crystal in Sansa hairnet might have been bigger than all of Cressen's seeds put together, it's really hard to know.

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To me, the question is if Sansa isn't the one who poisoned Joffrey, why is she so terrified? In the section you quoted, Sansa makes note that if the amethyst had simply fallen out of the hair net, then there was no way anyone would associate a random gemstone with Joffrey's death. Even if that loose gemstone was subsequently proven to be poison, if it was simply lying loose on the floor it obviously hadn't poisoned Joffrey. So why is Sansa so terrified at the gemstone not being there.

Because she finally connects the dots, understands why Dontos insisted on her wearing the hairnet, and realizes she's involved in Joffrey's death? I've read your whole post and your theory that Sansa is in denial. I find it hard to believe that GRRM would give us so many Tyrell's hints just to make us go the wrong way. And why would Dontos in the godswood deny that the amethysts were the poison if Sansa was the poisoner?

and from the second quote we see that Sansa not only needed to wear the hair net, but also do something with the hair net.

The "and do I as I told you" part is not necessarily linked to wearing the net. In the small questions thread, I recently wondered how did Sansa know when she had to leave and meet Dontos in the godswood. Here is a textual proof that she had to follow instructions, but it's still unclear if she just had to wait for an incident or if she knew that Joffrey would be killed.

As to why the poison killed Cressen more quickly than it killed Joffrey, Cressen put the poison in a half full regular sized goblet while Sansa put the poison in a mostly full large size chalice. Therefore, the poison that Cressen took was a more concentrated form of the poison and worked slightly faster.

That is indeed a good point! The poison was far more diluted in the chalice than in Cressen's goblet.

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A young teen's immune system is probably much better than a very old man's. So why not add another 20 seconds? Very plausible.

And sure, he mentions how important the wine is to the wedding while never mentioning the pie, for nothing...of course!

Add the whole "necklace/poison came from the Tyrell's who clearly wanted Joff dead...." thing and this theory becomes crap (to me anyways).

Immune systems fight off sickness and bacteria. There is no immunity to poison. And it seems pretty clear that the Strangler is not a systemic poison -- that is, it doesn't enter the stomach, become absorbed into the blood stream, circulate throughout the body and then attack whatever it needs to cause death. Rather, it appears to be topical -- it attacks either the larynx or some other organ/muscle in the throat directly, otherwise it wouldn't work so fast. So size, weight, age, etc have very little impact -- the poison hits the throat and it's game over.

I'm not clear on your second point. Who mentions the importance of the wine? GR? In the quote higher up in the thread, he says "fans call it the Purple Wedding because of the wine" but that in no way suggests it was actually the wine.

And there is no indication that the hairnet came from the Tyrells. LF gave it to Dontos who gave it to Sansa. No reason for the Tyrells to become involved at all, not until they joined the plot and the QoT needed to know how to get the crystal off without anyone noticing. I'll bet LF had a second one made just so she could practice.

If Martin's confirmation wasn't enough, perhaps the Ghost of High Heart's is.

"I dreamt a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

Her visions about the dead kings are pretty spot on and she says nothing about the pie.

The GoHH never mentions the wine either. In both scenarios the crystal from the hairnet is used, so how can you say her vision only confirms the wine, but not the pie?

As for the dilution in the chalice: Cressen placed a "flake" of a crystal into Davos' wine cup, and by the time he walked around the table to hand it to Mel, it's already dissolved. The full crystal from the hairnet is probably no bigger than a half carat, probably more like a quarter considering they anchor the crossings of the "gossamer" silver strands. Either way, it's bigger than a flake. Also, there is the fact that Cressen took a small mouthful of wine while Joffrey chugged for a good while. So even if you think the poison had settled on the bottom or he didn't get a big enough dose, that's highly suspect because there should have been plenty of poison in the chug he took. Also, why would a diluted poison only delay the time of the poisoning, rather than the severity? Once it hits him, it's just a violent, or even more so, than Cressen.

We can suppose all kinds of things all night long, but the fact remains that the pie theory is the only one that maintains consistency between the two poisonings: near-instant action and reaction.

And not to get onto a completely different subject, but has anyone else wondered why Mel didn't succumb to the poison? She said something about the fire of the LoL destroys all poisons, blah, blah, blah... But could it be that the real reason it had no affect is that Melisandre is already dead?

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I can't believe people are even still debating this.



No, the Ghost doesn't implicate the wine. But she sure as shit implicates Sansa's hairnet. The poison is in the hairnet, and Olenna Tyrell fidgets with the hairnet. A stone is now missing. Olenna Tyrell nicked the stone when she "adjusted" the hairnet. The entire point of putting the poisonous stone in wine (read: liquid) is that it dissolves. It's not going to dissolve the same way if it's put into a pie. If the poison doesn't diffuse in the pie, that makes it even more critical that the person in question eat the very specific piece of pie with the poisonous rock in it. This isn't a few drops of the tears of Lys, a liquid poison that could diffuse on its own in a solid. This is a little hunk of rock, poison in a solid state. You can't drop the rock into/onto the pie like you could if you were slipping it into a drink, not without getting caught, anyway. A purple stone that's invisible as it dissolves into purple-red wine is slightly less noticeable than a purple rock that's just sitting in a piece of pie.



Unless someone can explain why putting a rock in a pie makes more sense than putting a rock in a liquid, in which the rock will dissolve and diffuse, I'm still betting that it was the wine.



And let's not delude ourselves and act like GRRM changed it up for the show. It actually unfolded in pretty much the same way: the Tyrells did it. Just like they've been implicated in the book. This is not show and book canon diverting; it's the show backing up and confirming what people should have been able to conclude based on the book. The poison was in the wine, the Tyrells did it, and nothing was off with the pie.


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