Jump to content

Red or Purple?


Mithras

Recommended Posts

Wouldn't cersei think about her killing her son by accident, at least once?

She never thinks about killing Melara either. The bitch is expert in building walls in her mind to hide her own failures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But not in the same POV, by the same person, in close succession right?

try reading those passages again to yourself while only using the same repeated descriptor. It turns in into a very monotonous droning of a first grader, I see no significance in the changing description. He's simply trying to keep your attention (and probably his own sanity) as he slowly builds tension.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, I do have a hard time in accepting that the Tyrells wanted to kill Joffrey at least before the bedding (though LF tried his best to have Joffrey killed during the wedding and Tyrion framed).



That is simply because the bedding was the moment of victory for them. The prize was there, waiting to be grabbed.



After the bedding, they could kill Joffrey anytime anywhere but they could (and would) always pull out an Eleana Targaryen. Cersei rightfully feared this possibility in Tommen's case but that was much more valid in Joffrey's case.



That is why I don't think the Tyrells intended to use the venom on the hairnet before the bedding.



ETA: If anything, I think the Tyrells planned to poison Tyrion's wine during the wedding with the poison from Sansa's hairnet (Garlan was supposed to be the poisoner) and then grab Sansa before the Lannister could act and marry her to Willas.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

After the bedding, they could kill Joffrey anytime anywhere but they could (and would) always pull out an Eleana Targaryen. Cersei rightfully feared this possibility in Tommen's case but that was much more valid in Joffrey's case.

Not really. That would hinge on Margaery actually getting pregnant almost immediately thereafter, which could not be relied upon. Elaena's implausible pregnancy was possible only because she had the king backing her. The Lannisters would never stand for an equivalent.

ETA: If anything, I think the Tyrells planned to poison Tyrion's wine during the wedding with the poison from Sansa's hairnet (Garlan was supposed to be the poisoner) and then grab Sansa before the Lannister could act and marry her to Willas.

Also doesn't make sense. It would be utterly transparent that the Tyrells had killed Tyrion in that scenario. As well, if the target was Tyrion and their intent was to preserve Sansa, having her wear the hairnet is utterly counterproductive, and dangerous to their endgame. It also doesn't fit the timeline, as the hairnet was in play well before Sansa married Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<snip>

Actually, there's a very good, very easy, very obvious reason why they wouldn't have wanted the marriage to consummated: If Margaery and Joffrey had sex, they'd have to wait until she was clearly not pregnant (like how Jaime wanted Jeyne Westerling to wait quite a while before marrying) until she could marry again. The point was that they wanted to get Joffrey out of the way and Tommen in the chair ASAP, with Margaery as queen. Any sex, even just wedding night sex, could postpone that for several months.

By waiting until after the wedding, they made it even easier to segue Margaery into a marriage with Tommen, had a much easier means of delivery and distraction, had a perfect scapegoat and made themselves look much less likely to have been the culprits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Tyrells would have to be completely stupid to allow Joff to consummate his marriage. That would have only complicated things. Tommen was next in line to throne, and Olenna wanted to marry Margaery to him. They could not do this if Margaery was no longer a maiden, nor could Tommen easily ascend the Iron Throne if Margaery was pregnant from Joffrey and might give birth to a healthy young boy. The Lannisters would never have allowed the Tyrells to take care of that child or Margaery to raise him. She would have been nothing but the widow of a dead king, and Cersei/Tywin would have taken care of the young prince/king.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also doesn't make sense. It would be utterly transparent that the Tyrells had killed Tyrion in that scenario. As well, if the target was Tyrion and their intent was to preserve Sansa, having her wear the hairnet is utterly counterproductive, and dangerous to their endgame. It also doesn't fit the timeline, as the hairnet was in play well before Sansa married Tyrion.

1. Why did Olenna talk to Sansa about going to Highgarden likeTyrion was already dead?

2. Why was Alerie's first reaction to Joffrey's poisoning was that he choked on pie (Tyrion's pie) like she was already expecting something? More importantly, why did she assure Margaery that it was not her doing?

Actually, there's a very good, very easy, very obvious reason why they wouldn't have wanted the marriage to consummated: If Margaery and Joffrey had sex, they'd have to wait until she was clearly not pregnant (like how Jaime wanted Jeyne Westerling to wait quite a while before marrying) until she could marry again. The point was that they wanted to get Joffrey out of the way and Tommen in the chair ASAP, with Margaery as queen. Any sex, even just wedding night sex, could postpone that for several months.

By waiting until after the wedding, they made it even easier to segue Margaery into a marriage with Tommen, had a much easier means of delivery and distraction, had a perfect scapegoat and made themselves look much less likely to have been the culprits.

But marriage with Tommen is not as desirable as you think. The marriage is not consummated yet and will not be in close proximity. So, there is always the danger of being dumped by the Lannisters. Besides, Tommen is made of the same material with Joffrey, i.e. a bastard born of incest and treason. Tyrells know that. There is no need to think that they want an heir carrying his tainted blood. Actually, they may want to serve the Lannisters their own poison, by betraying the king and having illegitimate heirs secretly.

With Joffrey dead after the bedding, she would have a good month or two to get pregnant. Then, Tommen's coronation would wait until the baby is born and if the baby was girl, she would marry an older Tommen. If not, all for the better. They would have a baby king of their own with no influence of Cersei.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, I have to explain why the pie didn't show up in a vision? Okay...



I think Apple thoroughly debunked the pie conspiracy theory already, but I might as well add that in the vision the venom is dripping from the fangs. That suggests liquid. A dry pie is not liquid. Let's go with Occam's Razor. A small crystal of poison dissolves better in what? Wine, an acidic drink, or pie, a dry pastry.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paper Weaver,



Olenna wanted to take Sansa with her to Highgarden to implement the Willas plan after Tyrion had been accused of Joffrey's murder.



Olenna took the Strangler from the hairnet, Garlan most likely put it into the chalice. Anything else is ridiculous since it does not seem as if the Strangler can be administered in solid food. To ensure that only the a piece of the pie is poisoned, only that piece would have to contain the Strangler, which means that it would have to be put in there after the pie was finished (which, in turn, would mean that the Strangler would not dissolve in it).



The first line of defense for the Tyrells was to play the 'he choked to death' card. It could have worked. Margaery, Alerie (who must have been privy to the plot), and Olenna started to steer suspicion in that direction.



When that failed, Tyrion was the obvious suspect (Taena Merryweather helped to accuse him). Sansa wore the hairnet to ensure that she, too, could be accused if something went wrong.



But if Sansa had not disappeared, the Tyrells would most likely have pushed Tywin for a Sansa-Willas-match. This time they were prepared. Olenna knew that Joff would die (and that Tyrion would be a major suspect), and she most certainly had already a list of arguments Mace could use to force Tywin to relent. Mace appears to be very pissed about the danger his daughter faced, and I'm pretty sure he would have known how to push Tywin's buttons regarding his dwarf son...


Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. LF



He manipulated Tyrells indirectly to poison Joffrey. The Tyrells didn’t know that they were being manipulated by him. He indirectly let them know that Sansa was carrying poison in her hairnet to do something. He wanted Tyrells to get that poison and use it on Joffrey. His other provocations would work against Tyrion and he would be framed for regicide.



Except it didn’t go like he planned.



2. Tyrells



They planned to deal with Joffrey after the bedding or perhaps after a month or two. In the wedding, they decided to use the poison on Tyrion (Garlan was supposed to be the poisoner – he kissed Tyrion’s ass to swell his ego – a good way to distract him). Olenna took the poison and passed it to Garlan. He was supposed to drop it in Tyrion’s cup while the pigeon pie was being served. After that, they would quickly get their hands on Sansa and marry her to Willas.



But Garlan never got the chance to act.



LF’s provocations went beyond his intentions. Good old Joffrey couldn’t keep away from Tyrion. He messed with Tyrion numerously and directed the spotlights to Tyrion too much.



To the shock of the Tyrells, something completely unexpected happened. Joffrey ate Tyrion’s pie and from the looks of it, he choked on pigeon pie.



Except he didn’t.



3. Cersei



She was planning to get rid of the valonqar once and for all but Joffrey went and ate Tyrion’s pie to the surprise of many. Cersei’s plot to kill Tyrion backfired like hell.



This is the only way I can make sense of the whole drama.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread. Some thoughts:


  • The Strangler crystal could have melted in a hot pie, although wine seems more plausible. But what if Sansa didn't have the Strangler in her hairnet at all?
  • Cressen had a smaller cup - higher concentration, bigger dose?
  • Cressen took a while to shuffle up to the front of the room. Maybe it takes a while to dissolve, and Joffrey's initial quaff hadn't been dosed yet.
  • Why would anyone try to kill Tyrion? Maybe Littlefinger was worried about his schemes being uncovered as someone said. Any other reasons? I don't think taking the north in hand is a motive (if Sansa's hairnet holds the poison), because Tyrion's wedding takes place after Sansa gets her hairnet.
  • Sansa Durden? I love a madcap theory, is there any more to that one?
  • I don't see Cersei trying to kill Tyrion. Wouldn't she have mentioned this in her POV chapters?
  • Why does Tyrion pour the wine on the floor? I think he's thinking: fuck you and your wine, I'm not serving drinks for you anymore, you choking dead twazzock.



I do have to wonder, though, if the strangler seeds do deepen the color of this wine a bit, too. As far as we know, we have two instances of the strangler being used, both times in wine, red wine, iirc. I'm wondering if that is intentional, perhaps the seeds do bleed a bit of purple into something and it is best to use and mask it in red wine?




I think this is possible, else why would the Tears of Lys be so rare and costly? "As clear and tasteless as water, it leaves no trace." The Strangler leaves a trace (no food in the windpipe) - is it also as clear and tasteless as water? Perhaps not.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Why did Olenna talk to Sansa about going to Highgarden like Tyrion was already dead?

2. Why was Alerie's first reaction to Joffrey's poisoning was that he choked on pie (Tyrion's pie) like she was already expecting something?

She didn't talk about it "like Tyrion was already dead"; she suggested Sansa visit. Alerie, who isn't known to have been in on the plot, could have said he was choking because that's what it looked like to her; others also thought that. As to the idea that her telling Margaery it wasn't her fault is meaningful, why on Earth, if she was in on it (and Margaery was in on it), would they be saying incriminating stuff like that in the open?

Besides, Tommen is made of the same material with Joffrey, i.e. a bastard born of incest and treason. Tyrells know that. There is no need to think that they want an heir carrying his tainted blood.

There's no reason to think they care much about that.

With Joffrey dead after the bedding, she would have a good month or two to get pregnant.

You think they'd have "a month or two"? Absolutely not. Anything beyond a week or two would be suspicious, and beyond a month would be obviously wrong.

But what if Sansa didn't have the Strangler in her hairnet at all?

She did. The Ghost of High Heart confirms that.

This is the only way I can make sense of the whole drama.

That's nonsensical, and incredibly convoluted for no reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't believe people are even still debating this.

No, the Ghost doesn't implicate the wine. But she sure as shit implicates Sansa's hairnet. The poison is in the hairnet, and Olenna Tyrell fidgets with the hairnet. A stone is now missing. Olenna Tyrell nicked the stone when she "adjusted" the hairnet. The entire point of putting the poisonous stone in wine (read: liquid) is that it dissolves. It's not going to dissolve the same way if it's put into a pie. If the poison doesn't diffuse in the pie, that makes it even more critical that the person in question eat the very specific piece of pie with the poisonous rock in it. This isn't a few drops of the tears of Lys, a liquid poison that could diffuse on its own in a solid. This is a little hunk of rock, poison in a solid state. You can't drop the rock into/onto the pie like you could if you were slipping it into a drink, not without getting caught, anyway. A purple stone that's invisible as it dissolves into purple-red wine is slightly less noticeable than a purple rock that's just sitting in a piece of pie.

Unless someone can explain why putting a rock in a pie makes more sense than putting a rock in a liquid, in which the rock will dissolve and diffuse, I'm still betting that it was the wine.

And let's not delude ourselves and act like GRRM changed it up for the show. It actually unfolded in pretty much the same way: the Tyrells did it. Just like they've been implicated in the book. This is not show and book canon diverting; it's the show backing up and confirming what people should have been able to conclude based on the book. The poison was in the wine, the Tyrells did it, and nothing was off with the pie.

Yes, but regardless of whether the poison went into the wine of the pie, it still came out of the hairnet, so the GoHH vision supports either case.

The pie is both warm and moist. It probably won't dissolve as fast in the pie, but note that Joffrey says the pie is a "bit dry, needs washing down..." So it was already starting to absorb whatever moisture was available. And yes, it is critical that the poison is placed in the piece of pie intended for a very specific target, Tyrion. In the wine, there is the very real possibility that Margy would end up drinking the poison given that it was the wedding chalice and the poisoning coincided with the pie-cutting. And this is not just a normal pie, but the Wedding Pie. This is a time when both the bride and groom are toasted and would be expect to drink from the same cup, and being a formal event in a highly chivalrous culture, it would have been ladies first. So even if Margy knew the wine was poisoned at that point, how could she beg off drinking without drawing suspicion when the king choke to death?

And I don't see how anyone can think that slipping the crystal into a small piece of pie at the back of the table poses a greater risk of getting caught than dropping it over the rim of a THREE FOOT TALL chalice sitting right there in plain sight. Forgetting for the moment as to how a tiny woman like Lady O could even do it, the mere risk of such a move is unfathomable given that the consequences of getting caught are the complete destruction of the 8000-year-old Tyrell House.

And finally, note that after Joffrey says the pie is dry, he then takes another slug of wine and that's when the violent coughing starts. So there's you're dissolving liquid right in his mouth, sending a super-concentrated dose of poison down his throat. Also, the last words out of his mouth are "it's the pie, kof." He knows what's happening, but by then it's too late. When he dries to drink again, it all comes spilling back up, filling the goblet with poison, wine and pie -- and maybe the last remnants of the undissolved crystal itself -- which accounts for the fact that Tyrion sees deep purple wine in the goblet just before he dumps it out.

And I'm sorry, are you saying that everything in the show is proceeding according to the book? Wouldn't that discount the GoHH vision, which specifically mentioned serpents in her hair, not around her throat? Did Jon Snow really go back to Craster's to kill the traitors? Gilly really was sent to Mole's Town? It really is Bron dueling with one-handed Jamie and not Ser Illyn? Arya was Tywin's cupbearer, not Roose's? I'll have to reread the entire series again because I remember it very differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She didn't talk about it "like Tyrion was already dead"; she suggested Sansa visit.

“I am pleased to say I shall be leaving for Highgarden the day after next. I have had quite enough of this smelly city, thank you. Perhaps you would like to accompany me for a little visit, whilst the men are off having their war? I shall miss my Margaery so dreadfully, and all her lovely ladies. Your company would be such sweet solace.”

“You are too kind, my lady,” said Sansa, “but my place is with my lord husband.”

Lady Olenna gave Tyrion a wrinkled, toothless smile. “Oh? Forgive a silly old woman, my lord, I did not mean to steal your lovely wife. I assumed you would be off leading a Lannister host against some wicked foe.”

This was a slip. Olenna talked like Tyrion was already dead.

Alerie, who isn't known to have been in on the plot, could have said he was choking because that's what it looked like to her; others also thought that. As to the idea that her telling Margaery it wasn't her fault is meaningful, why on Earth, if she was in on it (and Margaery was in on it), would they be saying incriminating stuff like that in the open?

The High Septon knelt beside him. “Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly,” he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”

Margaery is a young girl. She could not handle the situation well. Lady Alerie was trying to comfort her before she did something silly.

There's no reason to think they care much about that.

Everyone cares about that. No one wants a bastard king, especially if that king is in full control of Cersei.

You think they'd have "a month or two"? Absolutely not. Anything beyond a week or two would be suspicious, and beyond a month would be obviously wrong.

Poison is not the only way to kill him. There can always be accidents. Margaery loves to go hawking. Joffrey might have gone with her and never come back alive.

That's nonsensical, and incredibly convoluted for no reason.

What is nonsensical is to think that LF and Olenna sat on a table together and plotted the murder of the king.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread. Some thoughts:

  • The Strangler crystal could have melted in a hot pie, although wine seems more plausible. But what if Sansa didn't have the Strangler in her hairnet at all?

  • Cressen had a smaller cup - higher concentration, bigger dose?

  • Cressen took a while to shuffle up to the front of the room. Maybe it takes a while to dissolve, and Joffrey's initial quaff hadn't been dosed yet.

  • Why would anyone try to kill Tyrion? Maybe Littlefinger was worried about his schemes being uncovered as someone said. Any other reasons? I don't think taking the north in hand is a motive (if Sansa's hairnet holds the poison), because Tyrion's wedding takes place after Sansa gets her hairnet.

  • Sansa Durden? I love a madcap theory, is there any more to that one?

  • I don't see Cersei trying to kill Tyrion. Wouldn't she have mentioned this in her POV chapters?

  • Why does Tyrion pour the wine on the floor? I think he's thinking: fuck you and your wine, I'm not serving drinks for you anymore, you choking dead twazzock.

I think this is possible, else why would the Tears of Lys be so rare and costly? "As clear and tasteless as water, it leaves no trace." The Strangler leaves a trace (no food in the windpipe) - is it also as clear and tasteless as water? Perhaps not.

If the wine was poisoned during the cutting, it must have sat in there for a good number of seconds before Joffrey grabbed it, otherwise someone would have seen the poisoner as the cutting came to an end. Plus, Tyrion gets the cup from the table, Joffrey grabs it, sloshing wine around in the process. Then, Joffrey "drank deep", further mixing up the contents. And then...nothing happens. Not during the long drink, Margy's next sentence, Joffrey's next sentence, not until Joffrey eats the pie...hmmm.

Why would anyone want to kill Tyrion? How about control of the north? A boy from Sansa would become Lord of Winterfel, which, if Tyrion is the legal father, would put all of the North, as well as effectively the Reach and the Riverlands under Lannister control. That would give Tywin the ability to raise a hundred thousands swords to march on Highgarden, which is a terrifying prospect for Lady O considering they've always had the largest army in the region and Tywin has a penchant for engaging in Shermanesque total war across the countryside.

And is LF explained (in Dance, I think) the poison in the hairnet at the end of Clash was merely putting all the pieces in place. He had an idea that he needed a diversion at the wedding to spirit Sansa away without any little birds noticing, and he probably had a mind that it would be Tyrion, but that doesn't mean all the details were worked out yet, or even that the Tyrells were in on it at that point.

As for Garlen being the poisoner? Not impossible, but unlikely for two reasons: 1. Garlen is an anointed knight and by all accounts is an honorable, chivalrous man. The use of poison would be very distasteful to him. And 2. Even he would have trouble reaching across the table to drop a crystal into a three-foot chalice without being seen. Sure, everyone is watching the pie-cutting, but there are still plenty of people who would spot a move like that, ie, Sansa and Tyrion, who are sitting right there.

The pie, however, would be easy as, well, pie, even for a tiny woman like Lady O, whose last known position was standing right behind T&S as the pie was brought out, rather than in her own seat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would anyone want to kill Tyrion? How about control of the north?

Which was not on the table when the plot started. And yes, there's every reason to think the plot was an ongoing enterprise, and not something that the Tyrells became involved in only at the last minute.

And from Littlefinger's perspective, killing Tyrion makes no sense as a distraction to let Sansa get away at that point, since Sansa is sitting right beside Tyrion and everyone would be watching him, and thus, her.

And is LF explained (in Dance, I think) the poison in the hairnet at the end of Clash was merely putting all the pieces in place.

He said no such thing, and Littlefinger was not even in ADWD.

1. Garlen is an anointed knight and by all accounts is an honorable, chivalrous man.

And if there's one thing this series has taught us, it's that appearance and reputation are always true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But what if Sansa didn't have the Strangler in her hairnet at all?

She did. The Ghost of High Heart confirms that.

And Littlefinger confirms that.

Well, I have my own ludicrous theory on that score:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114412-did-sansa-really-have-purple-snakes-in-her-hair/

Albeit one which is probably wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He said no such thing, and Littlefinger was not even in ADWD.

here's what they said (orange comedy included):

"So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joff 's cup?" Ser Osmund had been near the king all night, she remembered.

"Did I say that?" Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. "The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him." He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. "I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean."

Sansa spooned up some juice from her own orange. "But if it wasn't the Kettleblacks and it wasn't Ser Dontos . . . you weren't even in the city, and it couldn't have been Tyrion . . . "

No more guesses, sweetling?"

She shook her head. "I don't . . . "

Petyr smiled. "I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you."

Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. "You cannot mean . . . she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson . . . "

ASoS 68 Sansa VI (mid-chapter)

(the bold face is markup by me.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which was not on the table when the plot started. And yes, there's every reason to think the plot was an ongoing enterprise, and not something that the Tyrells became involved in only at the last minute.

And from Littlefinger's perspective, killing Tyrion makes no sense as a distraction to let Sansa get away at that point, since Sansa is sitting right beside Tyrion and everyone would be watching him, and thus, her.

He said no such thing, and Littlefinger was not even in ADWD.

And if there's one thing this series has taught us, it's that appearance and reputation are always true.

Why is there every reason to think that the plot to kill the king was an ongoing enterprise? Because LF brokered the deal back at Bitterbridge? How do you go from there to saying they had the entire thing worked out to the very last detail right from the start? Recall, it was Littlefinger's meddling that upended the Tyrell's plan to wed Sansa to Willas. Did LF and Lady O plan that from the start? If there is every reason why all this was in the works from the start, feel free to share them.

And do you honestly think that as Tyrion is choking to death on the floor, everyone will instead be looking at Sansa? She's a frightened young girl and would be pushed aside by Loras, Garlen, maybe even Oberyn as they try to help Tyrion. No one looks at the bystanders when someone is choking to death before their eyes.

I can't recall where that LF quote is from. If I find it, I'll reference it for you. It was something to the effect of putting your pieces in place even if you don't know how they will be used yet.

And I think your last comment should read "aren't always true"? That is very true, but we would have to make some very unlikely assumptions to pin the blame on Garlen: 1. That he is not a noble knight and is in fact a hosebag like Trent or Blount, and 2. that House Tyrell would allow their noble second son get involved with a poison plot. That sounds more like House Frey. But I'll grant you, it is a possibility, but I contend it still is unlikely that even Garlen could reach across the table and drop something in the chalice without anyone noticing. There is such a thing as peripheral vision, after all, and with Sansa and Tyrion sitting right next to Garlen with the chalice right in front of them, it would be near impossible for him to make a move like that with no one noticing, even if their attention is drawn to the dais.

The pie, though, is sitting at the back of the table as Joffrey and Tyrion are messing with the chalice again. Easy peasy for a short woman like Lady O to tuck it into the pointy end -- which would likely be the first and only bite that Tyrion would take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...