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Red or Purple?


Mithras

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And do you honestly think that as Tyrion is choking to death on the floor, everyone will instead be looking at Sansa?

Tyrion and Sansa are side by side. Once he starts choking, everyone will be looking at the two of them. Just as Tyrion, watching Joffrey choking, observes what's happening around him too. It's not impossible that she could get away, but it's far less likely, and a wholly unnecessary risk, as Tyrion doesn't need to die at the wedding and the wedding, in your version, is not intended to frame anyone for the crime (apart from Sansa, maybe, whose escape is being impeded by this method).

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1. LF

He manipulated Tyrells indirectly to poison Joffrey. The Tyrells didnt know that they were being manipulated by him. He indirectly let them know that Sansa was carrying poison in her hairnet to do something. He wanted Tyrells to get that poison and use it on Joffrey. His other provocations would work against Tyrion and he would be framed for regicide.

Except it didnt go like he planned.

2. Tyrells

They planned to deal with Joffrey after the bedding or perhaps after a month or two. In the wedding, they decided to use the poison on Tyrion (Garlan was supposed to be the poisoner he kissed Tyrions ass to swell his ego a good way to distract him). Olenna took the poison and passed it to Garlan. He was supposed to drop it in Tyrions cup while the pigeon pie was being served. After that, they would quickly get their hands on Sansa and marry her to Willas.

But Garlan never got the chance to act.

LFs provocations went beyond his intentions. Good old Joffrey couldnt keep away from Tyrion. He messed with Tyrion numerously and directed the spotlights to Tyrion too much.

To the shock of the Tyrells, something completely unexpected happened. Joffrey ate Tyrions pie and from the looks of it, he choked on pigeon pie.

Except he didnt.

3. Cersei

She was planning to get rid of the valonqar once and for all but Joffrey went and ate Tyrions pie to the surprise of many. Cerseis plot to kill Tyrion backfired like hell.

This is the only way I can make sense of the whole drama.

I think you're way underestimating Lady Olenna here. Remember, Littlefinger calls the Tyrells his "new friends" when he explains what happened to Sansa. She and LF made a deal, and the plan went exactly as planned until Tyrion lived. The deal was that the Tyrells get a much more pliable husband for Margery, and LF gets Sansa. That was his payment for arranging it all for them. I dont even think any of the other Tyrells were aware of the plan, not even Margery. Its plausible deniability, and the Queen of Thorns is the only real power in Highgarden, so she was the only one who needed to know. I think Garlan's talking up of Tyrion was genuine, remember he's did the same at Sansa's wedding while they were dancing, with no one else to hear. If anything, he may have had his own aims of trying to bring Sansa and Tyrion (the rightful heir of Casterly Rock) into the fold with them. After all they would both be powerful pieces in a shadow war against Tywin and Cersei.
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Red wine is red, Joff's was purple because of the poison. The wine was poisaned Olenna hoped that people would think he choked on the pie. Doh Alerie is not a part of the plan Olenna wouldnt trust her. No need to overdramatize things.

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This quote makes me wonder :It's a Tyrion POV, yet GRRM doesn't tell us what he's thinking here. Why does Tyrion pour the remaining wine on the floor? It looks like he's guessing the wine is poisoned, but decides to destruct the piece of evidence.

My assumption at the time was he quickly suspected poison, saw Sansa as most likely to be blamed, and either concluded her blameless or justified, and hoped it would go unnoticed or at least unprovable.

He made the mistake of ruling himself out as a likely suspect for the simple reason he knew he was innocent. I think at his heart Tyrion is more a puzzle-solver than politician/player, and he instinctively reacted as the former when he'd have been better served by the latter.

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Tyrion and Sansa are side by side. Once he starts choking, everyone will be looking at the two of them. Just as Tyrion, watching Joffrey choking, observes what's happening around him too. It's not impossible that she could get away, but it's far less likely, and a wholly unnecessary risk, as Tyrion doesn't need to die at the wedding and the wedding, in your version, is not intended to frame anyone for the crime (apart from Sansa, maybe, whose escape is being impeded by this method).

Why would everyone be looking at both when only Tyrion is choking? If you are in a restaurant and some guy starts choking and his friends are pounding him on the back and the waiters are running around and people are up and moving, are you looking at the guy choking or his wife?

If you read carefull, Tyrion is only watching Joffrey for quite a while once the choking starts, and even then the only people he notices are either right there with Joff, like Cersei, or making noise themselves, like Mace and Margaery. It isn't until near the end that he thinks of Sansa, but by then she is gone. No reason to think the same thing wouldn't have happened if it was Tyrion on the ground.

And Tyrion does need to die at the wedding because it provides the perfect cover for Sansa's escape. Both LF's and LO's goals are satisfied: removal of Tyrion and the potential for a Lannister heir to Winterfell, and the freeing of Sansa to marry again. And of course Sansa will be framed for the murder because she has suddenly vanished. That is unavoidable.

I think you're way underestimating Lady Olenna here. Remember, Littlefinger calls the Tyrells his "new friends" when he explains what happened to Sansa. She and LF made a deal, and the plan went exactly as planned until Tyrion lived. The deal was that the Tyrells get a much more pliable husband for Margery, and LF gets Sansa. That was his payment for arranging it all for them. I dont even think any of the other Tyrells were aware of the plan, not even Margery. Its plausible deniability, and the Queen of Thorns is the only real power in Highgarden, so she was the only one who needed to know. I think Garlan's talking up of Tyrion was genuine, remember he's did the same at Sansa's wedding while they were dancing, with no one else to hear. If anything, he may have had his own aims of trying to bring Sansa and Tyrion (the rightful heir of Casterly Rock) into the fold with them. After all they would both be powerful pieces in a shadow war against Tywin and Cersei.

Here are the problems with this scenario:

First, to think that LF and LO plotted to murder the king way back when they started discussing the Lannister alliance following Renly's death is wildly speculative. As far as we know, these two did not know each other, at least not closely. At best, I can imagine LO coming to court and meeting LF in some formal capacity while he was MoC (before that she probably wouldn't give him a second glance.) And LF was fostered with the Tullys and came to court with the Aarons -- there's nothing in his past to suggest that he spent any time at Highgarden. So to think that these two virtual strangers would start on Day 1 discussing the alliance and then the plot to kill the king is very iffy. They simply could not trust each other yet.

Secondly, if Garlen did not poison the wine, who did? The QoT is barely half-a-head taller than Tyrion. If she was the only one involved in the plot, how could she have possibly dropped the crystal into a three-foot chalice sitting at the high table? Tyrion had to climb into his seat to reach it. Simply impossible for Lady O to pull it off. But the pie is right there in front of Tyrion's seat and the last known position of Lady O was right behind him just before the cutting ceremony. Easiest thing in the world for a short woman like Lady O to slip it right at the pointed end, the part that would be eaten first.

And I also question the notion the Tommen would have made a more pliable king than Joffrey. Margaery in particular already seemed able to play Joff like a fiddle because, frankly, Joffrey is head over heals in love -- there is no threat to Margy in anything he has done or said since she arrived at court. Tommen is only 9, so right now he can be manipulated, but he is also more thoughtful and shows every sign of growing into a strong, confident man. And remember, so long as Tommen is underage, Cersei has a ready excuse to remain as Queen Regent, so she'll be the one doing the manipulating. With Joffrey, Margaery becomes Queen in an instant and Cersei is stripped of her position at court.

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Red wine is red, Joff's was purple because of the poison. The wine was poisaned Olenna hoped that people would think he choked on the pie. Doh Alerie is not a part of the plan Olenna wouldnt trust her. No need to overdramatize things.

If Lady O wanted people to think Joffrey choked on his pie, why poison the wine? How could she possibly know that Joffrey would eat the pie first and then drink the wine after it had been poisoned? And as we find out later, a simple autopsy showed there was no pie in his windpipe, so the whole idea that someone as sharp as Lady O would think she could get away with that does not hold water.

And as in the above, how could Lady O have possibly poisoned the wine? Unless there is evidence somewhere to suggest she can fly, and turn invisible, she simply could not have done it herself.

And let's go right back to the OP's original question, if the wine was poisoned during the cutting, why did it look red at first, then purple, then red again, then purple. My timeline goes like this:

Joffrey drinks deep after the cutting, with purple wine running down his chin. This is the effect of a thin sheet of wine against Joffrey's pale skin.

Joffrey eats the pie, notices it's dry and takes a slug of wine, which is when the first violent cough hits him. When he tries to take another drink, it all comes spilling back up, logically, back into the cup since he is in the process of drinking. Now the cup contains wine, pie, and quite possible the remains of the crystal.

Joff spills the cup on the dais and it runs "dark red." The majority of the contents of the cup have not been compromised yet, but some has, which is why it has darkened.

In the end, Tyrion looks into the cup and the remains are deep purple. Now there is a smaller amount of wine and the poison has had both the time and the agitation to fully dissolve.

If the wine had been poisoned during the cutting, then it should have had plenty of time to dissolve, based on Cressen's example. When Tyrion takes the cup from the table, Joffrey grabs it from his hand and then drinks deep, that should be plenty of agitation to thoroughly discolor the wine. But it isn't. Why doesn't it appear purple all the way through? Based on everything we know of the Strangler, there should have been no change in color between the moment the wine spilled from the cup to when Tyrion picked it up.

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Why would everyone be looking at both when only Tyrion is choking? If you are in a restaurant and some guy starts choking and his friends are pounding him on the back and the waiters are running around and people are up and moving, are you looking at the guy choking or his wife?

If you read carefull, Tyrion is only watching Joffrey for quite a while once the choking starts, and even then the only people he notices are either right there with Joff, like Cersei, or making noise themselves, like Mace and Margaery. It isn't until near the end that he thinks of Sansa, but by then she is gone. No reason to think the same thing wouldn't have happened if it was Tyrion on the ground.

And Tyrion does need to die at the wedding because it provides the perfect cover for Sansa's escape. Both LF's and LO's goals are satisfied: removal of Tyrion and the potential for a Lannister heir to Winterfell, and the freeing of Sansa to marry again. And of course Sansa will be framed for the murder because she has suddenly vanished. That is unavoidable.

Here are the problems with this scenario:

First, to think that LF and LO plotted to murder the king way back when they started discussing the Lannister alliance following Renly's death is wildly speculative. As far as we know, these two did not know each other, at least not closely. At best, I can imagine LO coming to court and meeting LF in some formal capacity while he was MoC (before that she probably wouldn't give him a second glance.) And LF was fostered with the Tullys and came to court with the Aarons -- there's nothing in his past to suggest that he spent any time at Highgarden. So to think that these two virtual strangers would start on Day 1 discussing the alliance and then the plot to kill the king is very iffy. They simply could not trust each other yet.

Secondly, if Garlen did not poison the wine, who did? The QoT is barely half-a-head taller than Tyrion. If she was the only one involved in the plot, how could she have possibly dropped the crystal into a three-foot chalice sitting at the high table? Tyrion had to climb into his seat to reach it. Simply impossible for Lady O to pull it off. But the pie is right there in front of Tyrion's seat and the last known position of Lady O was right behind him just before the cutting ceremony. Easiest thing in the world for a short woman like Lady O to slip it right at the pointed end, the part that would be eaten first.

And I also question the notion the Tommen would have made a more pliable king than Joffrey. Margaery in particular already seemed able to play Joff like a fiddle because, frankly, Joffrey is head over heals in love -- there is no threat to Margy in anything he has done or said since she arrived at court. Tommen is only 9, so right now he can be manipulated, but he is also more thoughtful and shows every sign of growing into a strong, confident man. And remember, so long as Tommen is underage, Cersei has a ready excuse to remain as Queen Regent, so she'll be the one doing the manipulating. With Joffrey, Margaery becomes Queen in an instant and Cersei is stripped of her position at court.

Littlefinger explained how it all happened, he used the people he brought with him to Highgarden to spread rumors about Joffrey until finally Olenna came to him. He made it her idea rather than his own, so she had no reason to mistrust him, especially since he was walking away with quite the prize for his efforts.

Olenna didnt poison the Chalice, she didn't have to, she poisoned the flagon the Chalice was being filled from. Much easier to do for a small woman, and no one would be watching the servants. Plus this allowed her to control when the poison was introduced, because she wasn't going to do it at a point when Margery was sharing from the cup.

I scoff at the idea that Joff was in love, not sure he's even capable of it. He was using the same gallant prince act he used on Sansa at the Ruby Forde. Tommen's defiance always comes from Margery, he's become her surrogate. They've been manipulating Cersei as well through Lady Merriweather, one could imagine they could have used the now sexual relationship with her to put in the same predicament she put herself in.

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If Lady O wanted people to think Joffrey choked on his pie, why poison the wine? How could she possibly know that Joffrey would eat the pie first and then drink the wine after it had been poisoned? And as we find out later, a simple autopsy showed there was no pie in his windpipe, so the whole idea that someone as sharp as Lady O would think she could get away with that does not hold water.

And as in the above, how could Lady O have possibly poisoned the wine? Unless there is evidence somewhere to suggest she can fly, and turn invisible, she simply could not have done it herself.

And let's go right back to the OP's original question, if the wine was poisoned during the cutting, why did it look red at first, then purple, then red again, then purple. My timeline goes like this:

Joffrey drinks deep after the cutting, with purple wine running down his chin. This is the effect of a thin sheet of wine against Joffrey's pale skin.

Joffrey eats the pie, notices it's dry and takes a slug of wine, which is when the first violent cough hits him. When he tries to take another drink, it all comes spilling back up, logically, back into the cup since he is in the process of drinking. Now the cup contains wine, pie, and quite possible the remains of the crystal.

Joff spills the cup on the dais and it runs "dark red." The majority of the contents of the cup have not been compromised yet, but some has, which is why it has darkened.

In the end, Tyrion looks into the cup and the remains are deep purple. Now there is a smaller amount of wine and the poison has had both the time and the agitation to fully dissolve.

If the wine had been poisoned during the cutting, then it should have had plenty of time to dissolve, based on Cressen's example. When Tyrion takes the cup from the table, Joffrey grabs it from his hand and then drinks deep, that should be plenty of agitation to thoroughly discolor the wine. But it isn't. Why doesn't it appear purple all the way through? Based on everything we know of the Strangler, there should have been no change in color between the moment the wine spilled from the cup to when Tyrion picked it up.

Because Olenna hoped that people would think he was choked on his pie, she wanted it to look like an accident. If the things worked the way she wanted there would be no need of an autopsy because shit happens. GRRM said the murderer wanted it to look like an accident and Cersei jumped in and accused Tyrion.

Because they were going to slice the pie and eat together? The groom and bride slices the cake and feeds each other? Thats how we done it in our world. And tbh it doesnt really matter.

The poison was in the wine, not in the pie. NO ONE would manipulate which part they will slice and which part will Joff eat. It would make things harder and more complicated.

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Littlefinger explained how it all happened, he used the people he brought with him to Highgarden to spread rumors about Joffrey until finally Olenna came to him. He made it her idea rather than his own, so she had no reason to mistrust him, especially since he was walking away with quite the prize for his efforts.

Olenna didnt poison the Chalice, she didn't have to, she poisoned the flagon the Chalice was being filled from. Much easier to do for a small woman, and no one would be watching the servants. Plus this allowed her to control when the poison was introduced, because she wasn't going to do it at a point when Margery was sharing from the cup.

I scoff at the idea that Joff was in love, not sure he's even capable of it. He was using the same gallant prince act he used on Sansa at the Ruby Forde. Tommen's defiance always comes from Margery, he's become her surrogate. They've been manipulating Cersei as well through Lady Merriweather, one could imagine they could have used the now sexual relationship with her to put in the same predicament she put herself in.

Lady O most certainly did not trust anything LF or his men said at Bitterbridge. Indeed, she was getting conflicting stories from both, with LF telling the obvious lie that Joffrey was a great kid. That's why they cornered Sansa at the dinner, to confirm what they had heard. And what was her reaction? "Oh, what a pity." Hardly the words of someone who now fears for her granddaughter's life. And now you have Lady O immediately entering into an assassination plot with a guy she barely knows and who's telling her how wonderful the king is? Please.

And the flagon was sitting on the table near where Tyrion, Sansa and Garlen were all sitting. It could have been used to fill any of their glasses at any time, so there is even less control with the flagon than there is with the chalice. And there is certainly no way she could control when margy would drink from the chalice because the toasts are being called out by the guests. Once the poison is deployed, there is no bringing it back, and if Joffrey had gone back to Margy for Lord Buckler's toast, it would have been game-over for her.

"Love" is a relative term when it comes to Joffrey. Fair to say, though, that at the time of the wedding, Joff is pretty jazzed about the hot bride he's getting. He's like the dorky high school freshman who suddenly realizes he has a shot at the senior prom queen. Maybe he would have turned on her later, but at the wedding there was no compelling reason to take such a drastic action as regicide because Margy's life was not in danger.

Because Olenna hoped that people would think he was choked on his pie, she wanted it to look like an accident. If the things worked the way she wanted there would be no need of an autopsy because shit happens. GRRM said the murderer wanted it to look like an accident and Cersei jumped in and accused Tyrion.

Because they were going to slice the pie and eat together? The groom and bride slices the cake and feeds each other? Thats how we done it in our world. And tbh it doesnt really matter.

The poison was in the wine, not in the pie. NO ONE would manipulate which part they will slice and which part will Joff eat. It would make things harder and more complicated.

But how could a smart cookie like Lady O have expected anyone to think it was an accident once Sansa disappeared. Once they found the hairnet, it didn't take long to figure out what poison was used and how it was smuggled into the throne room. Lancel and Kevan were nearby when Lady O started fiddling with the hairnet, so were Lord Gyles and Jalabhar Xho. All it would take is one witness to connect Lady O to the hairnet and the game is up.

By poisoning Tyrion's slice after it was set at his place at the table, Lady O all but assures that Tyrion and only Tyrion would eat it. She is standing right behind Tyrion as the cutting ceremony begins. The only thing she didn't count on is Joffrey's incredible stupidity.

And again, you haven't answered my and the OP's questions: If the poison was in the wine the whole time, why did it keep changing color? And how could Lady O have physically done it, let alone without anyone seeing? She's a shrimp and the chalice stands three feet tall. Assuming the high table is of normal height, that puts the rim of the chalice nearly six feet off the ground. Even Garlen would have to stand to reach it. And the chalice is front and center on the table during the entire cutting. For those who say all eyes would be on Sansa once Tyrion started choking, why would they all have such tunnel vision and fail to see such an obvious move on the chalice just because the bride and groom are cutting a pie?

Logistics alone should tell you that the wine theory is highly improbable, if not downright impossible.

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Lady O most certainly did not trust anything LF or his men said at Bitterbridge. Indeed, she was getting conflicting stories from both, with LF telling the obvious lie that Joffrey was a great kid. That's why they cornered Sansa at the dinner, to confirm what they had heard. And what was her reaction? "Oh, what a pity." Hardly the words of someone who now fears for her granddaughter's life. And now you have Lady O immediately entering into an assassination plot with a guy she barely knows and who's telling her how wonderful the king is? Please.

And the flagon was sitting on the table near where Tyrion, Sansa and Garlen were all sitting. It could have been used to fill any of their glasses at any time, so there is even less control with the flagon than there is with the chalice. And there is certainly no way she could control when margy would drink from the chalice because the toasts are being called out by the guests. Once the poison is deployed, there is no bringing it back, and if Joffrey had gone back to Margy for Lord Buckler's toast, it would have been game-over for her.

"Love" is a relative term when it comes to Joffrey. Fair to say, though, that at the time of the wedding, Joff is pretty jazzed about the hot bride he's getting. He's like the dorky high school freshman who suddenly realizes he has a shot at the senior prom queen. Maybe he would have turned on her later, but at the wedding there was no compelling reason to take such a drastic action as regicide because Margy's life was not in danger.

But how could a smart cookie like Lady O have expected anyone to think it was an accident once Sansa disappeared. Once they found the hairnet, it didn't take long to figure out what poison was used and how it was smuggled into the throne room. Lancel and Kevan were nearby when Lady O started fiddling with the hairnet, so were Lord Gyles and Jalabhar Xho. All it would take is one witness to connect Lady O to the hairnet and the game is up.

By poisoning Tyrion's slice after it was set at his place at the table, Lady O all but assures that Tyrion and only Tyrion would eat it. She is standing right behind Tyrion as the cutting ceremony begins. The only thing she didn't count on is Joffrey's incredible stupidity.

And again, you haven't answered my and the OP's questions: If the poison was in the wine the whole time, why did it keep changing color? And how could Lady O have physically done it, let alone without anyone seeing? She's a shrimp and the chalice stands three feet tall. Assuming the high table is of normal height, that puts the rim of the chalice nearly six feet off the ground. Even Garlen would have to stand to reach it. And the chalice is front and center on the table during the entire cutting. For those who say all eyes would be on Sansa once Tyrion started choking, why would they all have such tunnel vision and fail to see such an obvious move on the chalice just because the bride and groom are cutting a pie?

Logistics alone should tell you that the wine theory is highly improbable, if not downright impossible.

You're being ridiculous. Yeah im sure Joffrey just didnt notice he was biting into a crystal mixed in with the pie, that makes so much more sense than Lady O simply slipping it into the wine, where it would dissolve, at the appropriate time. Look if you're going to ignore Littlefinger's explicit explanation of events, then I can't help you. As the great Carl Sagan once said, "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence," and you have none. Just your refusal to take LF at his word, which is only proof that LF is enough of an enigma to inspire all kinds of doubts.
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You're being ridiculous. Yeah im sure Joffrey just didnt notice he was biting into a crystal mixed in with the pie, that makes so much more sense than Lady O simply slipping it into the wine, where it would dissolve, at the appropriate time. Look if you're going to ignore Littlefinger's explicit explanation of events, then I can't help you. As the great Carl Sagan once said, "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence," and you have none. Just your refusal to take LF at his word, which is only proof that LF is enough of an enigma to inspire all kinds of doubts.

Really? Littlefinger telling the truth? That's what you're counting on? The man who wants peace and stability so bad that he's willing to kill one Hand and blame it on the Lannisters, leading to the murder of a king, the execution of another hand, a five-way civil war between houses followed by the murder of another king? And now you trust him because he says he wants stability in the realm?

The last words out of Jofrey's mouth were "it's, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie." So clearly he knows something is wrong with the pie. If I bit into a pigeon pie and hit something hard, my first thought would be a bone, not a poison crystal. It's a half-carat crystal at best, not the Hope Diamond. And even if he did chomp on the crystal, it's too late. He's dying. What's ridiculous is the notion that he would bite into the pie, feel the crystal and immediately spit it out yelling "Poison!"

And again, please tell me how a five-foot old woman could reach up to a three-foot chalice sitting on a three-foot table without anyone seeing? How could anyone do it when Tyrion and Sansa are sitting right behind it?

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Really? Littlefinger telling the truth? That's what you're counting on? The man who wants peace and stability so bad that he's willing to kill one Hand and blame it on the Lannisters, leading to the murder of a king, the execution of another hand, a five-way civil war between houses followed by the murder of another king? And now you trust him because he says he wants stability in the realm?

The last words out of Jofrey's mouth were "it's, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie." So clearly he knows something is wrong with the pie. If I bit into a pigeon pie and hit something hard, my first thought would be a bone, not a poison crystal. It's a half-carat crystal at best, not the Hope Diamond. And even if he did chomp on the crystal, it's too late. He's dying. What's ridiculous is the notion that he would bite into the pie, feel the crystal and immediately spit it out yelling "Poison!"

And again, please tell me how a five-foot old woman could reach up to a three-foot chalice sitting on a three-foot table without anyone seeing? How could anyone do it when Tyrion and Sansa are sitting right behind it?

Littlefinger's MO, just like Varys, is to always tell just enough truth to accomplish his goals. Yea he lies, but only enough to obscure his own motives. The truth he told Sansa on the boat was how he did it, the lie was why. He doesn't care about the realm, nor even about her, only what she represents which is his second chance with Cat. However he can't tell her that. He is trying to teach her though which is why im pretty sure his Bond villain moment can be believed.

If I bite into something oddly hard in a piece of food, I would think bone as well, but I don't then try to swallow it! Im going to spit it out, as would almost anyone. Joff seems to enjoy the pie, it isnt until he tries to wash it down with some wine that he starts to cough. Remember this isnt the first time we've seen the strangler in action either, its the same poison Maester Cressen tried to use on Melisandre, which he had to dissolve in wine. If it was still in a solid state, his stomach would have had to break it down first for it to metabolize into his blood stream.

How is the idea that someone shoved the stone into Tyrion's food right in front of everyone on the dais any more believable than her poisoning the flagon? I dont even think thats where it happened. As I recall, when Tyrion first goes to fill from the flagon, its empty, so another is brought out. Thats when the poison was introduced, by Lady Olenna, off to the side where the servants are working while everyone else is staring at Joff torturing Tyrion. It was the perfect time because Joffrey was no longer seated, so she didnt have to worry about Margery sharing at that moment. Also, no one knew Joffrey was going to make this big spectacle of Tyrion, so how was she going to poison the pie if Tyrion had been sitting right in front of it when it was served, as he was for the first couple dozen courses? Your version only makes sense after the fact, not before. Not to mention, while Tyrion was not much loved, but Tywin is suspicious enough to have had his son's throat autopsied. Then when no obstruction is found Sansa would again be the prime suspect. How are they going to marry Willas to a wanted criminal? And why would they risk their alliance with the crown just to marry the heir to the defunct North?

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Littlefinger's MO, just like Varys, is to always tell just enough truth to accomplish his goals. Yea he lies, but only enough to obscure his own motives. The truth he told Sansa on the boat was how he did it, the lie was why. He doesn't care about the realm, nor even about her, only what she represents which is his second chance with Cat. However he can't tell her that. He is trying to teach her though which is why im pretty sure his Bond villain moment can be believed.

If I bite into something oddly hard in a piece of food, I would think bone as well, but I don't then try to swallow it! Im going to spit it out, as would almost anyone. Joff seems to enjoy the pie, it isnt until he tries to wash it down with some wine that he starts to cough. Remember this isnt the first time we've seen the strangler in action either, its the same poison Maester Cressen tried to use on Melisandre, which he had to dissolve in wine. If it was still in a solid state, his stomach would have had to break it down first for it to metabolize into his blood stream.

How is the idea that someone shoved the stone into Tyrion's food right in front of everyone on the dais any more believable than her poisoning the flagon? I dont even think thats where it happened. As I recall, when Tyrion first goes to fill from the flagon, its empty, so another is brought out. Thats when the poison was introduced, by Lady Olenna, off to the side where the servants are working while everyone else is staring at Joff torturing Tyrion. It was the perfect time because Joffrey was no longer seated, so she didnt have to worry about Margery sharing at that moment. Also, no one knew Joffrey was going to make this big spectacle of Tyrion, so how was she going to poison the pie if Tyrion had been sitting right in front of it when it was served, as he was for the first couple dozen courses? Your version only makes sense after the fact, not before.

I think you're misreading Littlefinger badly. Sansa is the key to the north: for LF, the Tyrells, Lannisters, everybody. Whoever can wed her, bed her and produce a son from her will become Lord Regent of Winterfell until the boy comes of age. This is the single largest realm in the kingdom -- with all its swords, holdfasts, natural resources and ports on both coasts. LF wants to rule, and while he may see Sansa as another Cat, he is savvy enough to know that her claim is the real prize.

Absolutely, he told her enough of the truth to win her confidence: the hairnet, Lady O's role, all except the fact that Joffrey was not the intended victim. Why? Because he needs her to have complete confidence in him in order to carry on the charade of Elaine Stone as long as possible. To admit the whole truth would be to say: "Yes, well, we meant to murder you husband but we killed the king instead. Now the whole realm thinks you're a kingslayer, but don't worry, sweetling, everything is under control."

On your second point, you're assuming that there is a 100 percent chance that he would bite into the crystal when he ate the pie. If you don't take the evidence that he was coughing and sputtering about the pie when he first noticed something wrong, than it's quite plain that either he just missed the crystal or it had softened in the hot, steamy pie. This is all speculation on my part, but it certainly doesn't mean that Joff's failure to notice the crystal is slam dunk evidence that it could not have been in the pie.

There is nothing to suggest that Maester Cressen "had to" dissolve the crystal in wine, only that wine is probably the fastest dissolving agent and is the preferred method. But that in no way means the Strangler dissolves in wine and only in wine. If I drop a sugar cube into a cup of coffee and watch it dissolve, do I then conclude that sugar cubes only dissolve in coffee?

And as I mentioned earlier, it should be clear that the Strangler does not work by entering the blood stream and circulating throughout the body, otherwise it wouldn't work so fast. It hits the throat directly and goes to work on the larynx or some other organ or muscle immediately. No need for digestion, circulation or anything.

And finally, the pie is only three inches or so tall and sitting right in front of Tyrion's chair. Lady O is standing right behind Tyrion when the pie ceremony started, in a perfect position to tuck it right into the pointed end after it's been placed. The chalice is, at best, more toward the middle of the table and is THREE FEET TALL. However simple you say it would be to poison the chalice, it's that much simpler to poison the pie. Tyrion and Sansa were already on their feet heading off the change Tyrion's doublet: that was probably the best opportunity. The language is a little fuzzy as to exactly where they were, but they were at least up and out of their chairs when Joffrey called them back. After that, Tyrion is back in his chair to get the chalice and doesn't appear to leave it until the choking starts. Barring that, if we are suggesting that Lady O has a serving person off to the side to poison the flagon, we should also be open to the possibility that they could do the same with the pie.

And sorry, but the flagon is simply an impossibility: the last time the chalice is refilled is before the pie-cutting. Tyrion grabs a flagon from a passing server and refills the chalice "three quarters full." Joffrey then takes a long drink and heads to the dais with Margaery. No poisoning, no coughing, no nothing throughout the entire ceremony.

Afterward, Joffrey starts up again with Tyrion, who retrieves the chalice from the table and hands it directly to Joffrey. Joff yanks it from his hands and starts chugging. Nothing was refilled. No flagon is involved. No more wine is poured into the chalice.

But even after that big drink, there is still no reaction to any poison. Whereas it took only a few seconds for Cressen to fall down choking, Joffrey drinks long and deep, then Margaery calls him over for Lord Buckler's toast, then Joffrey taunts Tyrion again and jams the pie in his mouth. Then and only then do we see the first affects of the poison. Once he drinks again, with the pie et al in his mouth, then we see the first violent coughing.

So your theory on the flagon does not fit with the facts by any stretch of the imagination.

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What facts are tripping you up?



The fact that the QoT is only five feet tall and the chalice rim is six feet off the ground and in the middle of the table surrounded by at least four witnesses?



The fact that Cressen drinks a half-mouthful and dies almost instantly while Joff drinks a long drink, listens to a statement from Margy, makes his own statement to Tyrion and only starts coughing and choking after he eats the pie?



The fact that the wine goes from red to purple to red to purple long after the crystal should have been well and thoroughly dissolved if the poisoning happened during the cutting ceremony?



Let me see your facts -- not opinions, not suppositions, not maybes, but clear-cut facts taken directly from the text - to rebut these facts, and then we can discuss who is bending what to support a flawed perception.


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Perhaps the strangler wasnt fully dissolved at first, and thus the wine was red.



The strangler was a solid form, it'd sink to the bottom, as it's dissolving. Structurally, the top would remain red, while the stone disintegrates at the bottom. Joff drinks deep, ingesting both the red portion near the top while also getting to the bottom. Thus, when all thats left in the cup IS the bottom, it would be purple.



ETA: I didnt read pages 2 or 3 of this thread, so if someone mentioned this, my apologies for a repeat post


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Yeah, went through all this earlier. Even if the Strangler sinks to the bottom and that's where most of the poison sits -- another supposition, not a fact -- you still have Tyrion picking it up from the table, Joffrey yanking it from has hands and then tipping it up to drink deep. That's a lot of swirling around, so by the time the chalice drops to the floor and the wine runs "dark red" across the dais, it should be good and mixed by now. But when Tyrion inspects the final dregs, they are deep purple. Why the change?



Are we saying that the Strangler is dense, like syrup, and clings to the bottom of the chalice? Where is the evidence for that? It would make a very ineffective poison if it did.






There are a hundred threads that explain in detail the facts. Use the search function.





C'mon hot shot. You were the one who brought up the need for "actual facts" and "logical conclusions." I gave you mine. Let's hear some of yours. How do you suggest Lady O -- or anyone -- reached across the table to poison a three-foot chalice with four people sitting right behind it? Or are you all noise and no substance?


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