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Red or Purple?


Mithras

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C'mon hot shot. You were the one who brought up the need for "actual facts" and "logical conclusions." I gave you mine. Let's hear some of yours. How do you suggest Lady O -- or anyone -- reached across the table to poison a three-foot chalice with four people sitting right behind it? Or are you all noise and no substance?

Don't take my inclination to let a hundred other posters who have constructed far better arguments for my case so personally. I'm not going to trawl through the books and repeat what has not only been said in other threads, but this one itself. You know what my "actual facts" and "logical conclusions" are. You know it because I'm disagreeing with your position for the more commonly accepted position. You know it because I'm agreeing with the people you disagree with. My problem with the people posting from your position isn't even in their debate, but their arrogant declarations of how their position is inherently the correct when actually it's a weaker, less substantiated position of supposition which takes a claim and works backwards to try and fit what evidence we have into it.

tl;dr I'm not interested in debating with you, because my position has already been argued for by other people. Continue to take it up with them, but stop pretending you're right and everyone else is wrong when you've got the weaker argument

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I think you're misreading Littlefinger badly. Sansa is the key to the north: for LF, the Tyrells, Lannisters, everybody. Whoever can wed her, bed her and produce a son from her will become Lord Regent of Winterfell until the boy comes of age. This is the single largest realm in the kingdom -- with all its swords, holdfasts, natural resources and ports on both coasts. LF wants to rule, and while he may see Sansa as another Cat, he is savvy enough to know that her claim is the real prize.

Absolutely, he told her enough of the truth to win her confidence: the hairnet, Lady O's role, all except the fact that Joffrey was not the intended victim. Why? Because he needs her to have complete confidence in him in order to carry on the charade of Elaine Stone as long as possible. To admit the whole truth would be to say: "Yes, well, we meant to murder you husband but we killed the king instead. Now the whole realm thinks you're a kingslayer, but don't worry, sweetling, everything is under control."

On your second point, you're assuming that there is a 100 percent chance that he would bite into the crystal when he ate the pie. If you don't take the evidence that he was coughing and sputtering about the pie when he first noticed something wrong, than it's quite plain that either he just missed the crystal or it had softened in the hot, steamy pie. This is all speculation on my part, but it certainly doesn't mean that Joff's failure to notice the crystal is slam dunk evidence that it could not have been in the pie.

There is nothing to suggest that Maester Cressen "had to" dissolve the crystal in wine, only that wine is probably the fastest dissolving agent and is the preferred method. But that in no way means the Strangler dissolves in wine and only in wine. If I drop a sugar cube into a cup of coffee and watch it dissolve, do I then conclude that sugar cubes only dissolve in coffee?

And as I mentioned earlier, it should be clear that the Strangler does not work by entering the blood stream and circulating throughout the body, otherwise it wouldn't work so fast. It hits the throat directly and goes to work on the larynx or some other organ or muscle immediately. No need for digestion, circulation or anything.

And finally, the pie is only three inches or so tall and sitting right in front of Tyrion's chair. Lady O is standing right behind Tyrion when the pie ceremony started, in a perfect position to tuck it right into the pointed end after it's been placed. The chalice is, at best, more toward the middle of the table and is THREE FEET TALL. However simple you say it would be to poison the chalice, it's that much simpler to poison the pie. Tyrion and Sansa were already on their feet heading off the change Tyrion's doublet: that was probably the best opportunity. The language is a little fuzzy as to exactly where they were, but they were at least up and out of their chairs when Joffrey called them back. After that, Tyrion is back in his chair to get the chalice and doesn't appear to leave it until the choking starts. Barring that, if we are suggesting that Lady O has a serving person off to the side to poison the flagon, we should also be open to the possibility that they could do the same with the pie.

And sorry, but the flagon is simply an impossibility: the last time the chalice is refilled is before the pie-cutting. Tyrion grabs a flagon from a passing server and refills the chalice "three quarters full." Joffrey then takes a long drink and heads to the dais with Margaery. No poisoning, no coughing, no nothing throughout the entire ceremony.

Afterward, Joffrey starts up again with Tyrion, who retrieves the chalice from the table and hands it directly to Joffrey. Joff yanks it from his hands and starts chugging. Nothing was refilled. No flagon is involved. No more wine is poured into the chalice.

But even after that big drink, there is still no reaction to any poison. Whereas it took only a few seconds for Cressen to fall down choking, Joffrey drinks long and deep, then Margaery calls him over for Lord Buckler's toast, then Joffrey taunts Tyrion again and jams the pie in his mouth. Then and only then do we see the first affects of the poison. Once he drinks again, with the pie et al in his mouth, then we see the first violent coughing.

So your theory on the flagon does not fit with the facts by any stretch of the imagination.

I think you're over-estimating the value of Sansa's claim, especially when it comes to Littlefinger and the Tyrells. Yes, there are lots of people interested in it for long term political goals, but despite being the largest of the seven kingdoms, it's not especially wealthy, nor fertile, nor heavily populated, particularly in terms of fighting men after the Red Wedding. Not to mention, anyone who wants to rule it is going to have to wrestle it away from the Boltons. Would the Tyrells have taken it if they could have stole an unmarried Sansa right out from under the Lannisters' noses? Certainly, but I'll get back to them later. Littlefinger has no real interest in the North, if he wants a kingdom to rule he has one in the Riverlands, he only needs to take it. If he wants a surrogate to rule through, he has Robyn, he doesn't need Sansa for that. The only thing he needs her claim for is to make his future rebellion seem like a continuation of Robb's rebellion, but he doesn't really even need her for that. He could have produced a fake Stark, or used Lysa's Tully heritage, or as show Littlefinger does just ask the Vale lords to unite behind Robyn as they are clearly itching for a fight. The only thing he needs the real Sansa for is that wang-dang sweet poon tang. The only person who needed the real Sansa's claim at all costs was Tywin, so that he could bind the North to the crown again.

You mistook my point about Maester Cresson, I wasn't saying the poison had to be dissolved in wine, only that it had to be dissolved. Wine is only the best medium because of the purple color. There is no such thing as a poison that doesn't need to enter the bloodstream, the only difference between a fast acting poison and a slow acting poison is the delivery method. It doesn't work by magically touching the back of the throat and instantly closing it. It would need to be absorbed into the bloodstream through the mucus membranes in the esophagus, and for that it MUST be dissolved. If it had been in the pie and he didn't bite into the crystal then it wouldn't have been introduced into the bloodstream until his stomach began to digest it. As you keep harping on, this is a giant three foot chalice we're talking about, so it would make sense that the poison wouldn't necessarily distribute evenly throughout the wine, it would be concentrated near the bottom where the stone is dissolving, especially in a something like wine which has different properties from plain water. Anyone who's ever tried to dissolve table sugar into cold water can tell you, it doesn't happen on its own, it take a lot of vigorous mixing to combine it thoroughly, and im sure this crystalline poison is no different. It just took time for Joffrey to get to the portion of the wine that was sufficiently dosed with the poison to kill him.

What kills me is that you openly admit most of your theory is based on speculation and conjecture, yet somehow you are so certain of it, especially when NONE of it stands up to the real question you need to ask - Why would the Tyrells risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister in order to MAYBE have a chance to rule the North? A realm thousands of miles from the seat of their power, that has no contiguous border with the Reach, and doesn't really offer them much in terms of wealth or power. Especially when you consider they made out so much better with the actual result. With one act, killing Joffrey and framing Tyrion for it, they ensured that Tommen and Margaery's offspring would get Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Dragonstone, and the crown along with all the associated lands and incomes, and all while keeping their hands squeaky clean. With Joffrey alive, they can have the crown, but Tommen gets Dragonstone and Storm's End automatically, and Tyrion is the rightful heir to Casterly Rock unless Tywin figures out a way to officially block him from his inheritance. Removing them both from the equation makes Tommen the sole direct male heir of both House Lannister and Baratheon (unless Stannis has something to say about it). So please explain to me, why would anyone give up a chance to be the most powerful house in Westeros since Aegon's Landing to roll the dice on controlling the uber-remote and uncooperative North?

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I think the only way we're going to solve this is if the pie-supporters bake their own pie and stick a hunk of crystallized poison in it and eat it. Report back your findings, because I really don't think a dry pie could dissolve crystalized anything.


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I think the only way we're going to solve this is if the pie-supporters bake their own pie and stick a hunk of crystallized poison in it and eat it. Report back your findings, because I really don't think a dry pie could dissolve crystalized anything.

Or the poison from Sansa's hairnet was not used to kill anyone and the pie was already poisoned beforehand by Cersei to kill Tyrion, as I suggested.

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Or the poison from Sansa's hairnet was not used to kill anyone and the pie was already poisoned beforehand by Cersei to kill Tyrion, as I suggested.

Cersei's reaction to Joffrey choking was probably the one genuine moment she's had in the entire series. If she had known the pie was poisoned, she wouldn't have let Joffrey touch it, let alone act genuinely shocked when he died in her arms. Plus we have access to her thoughts later on, and there's not even the slightest hint about her doing anything of the sort, and with her constant obsession with Tyrion and the Valonquar it would have come up.
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Cersei's reaction to Joffrey choking was probably the one genuine moment she's had in the entire series. If she had known the pie was poisoned, she wouldn't have let Joffrey touch it, let alone act genuinely shocked when he died in her arms. Plus we have access to her thoughts later on, and there's not even the slightest hint about her doing anything of the sort, and with her constant obsession with Tyrion and the Valonquar it would have come up.

Actually, I'm finding it curious that in Joffrey's death scene, it takes so long before we hear about Cersei : Margaery, Olenna, Garlan, Osmund Kettleblack, Mace, the High Septon, Grand Maester Pycelle, Tommen and Meryn Trant are mentioned before her !

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Or the poison from Sansa's hairnet was not used to kill anyone and the pie was already poisoned beforehand by Cersei to kill Tyrion, as I suggested.

The Ghost of High Heart discounts this by dreaming of the deaths of the four kings. If the other three are accurate, the fourth is.

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Or the poison from Sansa's hairnet was not used to kill anyone and the pie was already poisoned beforehand by Cersei to kill Tyrion, as I suggested.

And the missing stone from her hairnet? What would be the point of Sansa's hairnet if the poison was never used?
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Don't take my inclination to let a hundred other posters who have constructed far better arguments for my case so personally. I'm not going to trawl through the books and repeat what has not only been said in other threads, but this one itself. You know what my "actual facts" and "logical conclusions" are. You know it because I'm disagreeing with your position for the more commonly accepted position. You know it because I'm agreeing with the people you disagree with. My problem with the people posting from your position isn't even in their debate, but their arrogant declarations of how their position is inherently the correct when actually it's a weaker, less substantiated position of supposition which takes a claim and works backwards to try and fit what evidence we have into it.

tl;dr I'm not interested in debating with you, because my position has already been argued for by other people. Continue to take it up with them, but stop pretending you're right and everyone else is wrong when you've got the weaker argument

Poser

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I think you're over-estimating the value of Sansa's claim, especially when it comes to Littlefinger and the Tyrells. Yes, there are lots of people interested in it for long term political goals, but despite being the largest of the seven kingdoms, it's not especially wealthy, nor fertile, nor heavily populated, particularly in terms of fighting men after the Red Wedding. Not to mention, anyone who wants to rule it is going to have to wrestle it away from the Boltons. Would the Tyrells have taken it if they could have stole an unmarried Sansa right out from under the Lannisters' noses? Certainly, but I'll get back to them later. Littlefinger has no real interest in the North, if he wants a kingdom to rule he has one in the Riverlands, he only needs to take it. If he wants a surrogate to rule through, he has Robyn, he doesn't need Sansa for that. The only thing he needs her claim for is to make his future rebellion seem like a continuation of Robb's rebellion, but he doesn't really even need her for that. He could have produced a fake Stark, or used Lysa's Tully heritage, or as show Littlefinger does just ask the Vale lords to unite behind Robyn as they are clearly itching for a fight. The only thing he needs the real Sansa for is that wang-dang sweet poon tang. The only person who needed the real Sansa's claim at all costs was Tywin, so that he could bind the North to the crown again.

You mistook my point about Maester Cresson, I wasn't saying the poison had to be dissolved in wine, only that it had to be dissolved. Wine is only the best medium because of the purple color. There is no such thing as a poison that doesn't need to enter the bloodstream, the only difference between a fast acting poison and a slow acting poison is the delivery method. It doesn't work by magically touching the back of the throat and instantly closing it. It would need to be absorbed into the bloodstream through the mucus membranes in the esophagus, and for that it MUST be dissolved. If it had been in the pie and he didn't bite into the crystal then it wouldn't have been introduced into the bloodstream until his stomach began to digest it. As you keep harping on, this is a giant three foot chalice we're talking about, so it would make sense that the poison wouldn't necessarily distribute evenly throughout the wine, it would be concentrated near the bottom where the stone is dissolving, especially in a something like wine which has different properties from plain water. Anyone who's ever tried to dissolve table sugar into cold water can tell you, it doesn't happen on its own, it take a lot of vigorous mixing to combine it thoroughly, and im sure this crystalline poison is no different. It just took time for Joffrey to get to the portion of the wine that was sufficiently dosed with the poison to kill him.

What kills me is that you openly admit most of your theory is based on speculation and conjecture, yet somehow you are so certain of it, especially when NONE of it stands up to the real question you need to ask - Why would the Tyrells risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister in order to MAYBE have a chance to rule the North? A realm thousands of miles from the seat of their power, that has no contiguous border with the Reach, and doesn't really offer them much in terms of wealth or power. Especially when you consider they made out so much better with the actual result. With one act, killing Joffrey and framing Tyrion for it, they ensured that Tommen and Margaery's offspring would get Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Dragonstone, and the crown along with all the associated lands and incomes, and all while keeping their hands squeaky clean. With Joffrey alive, they can have the crown, but Tommen gets Dragonstone and Storm's End automatically, and Tyrion is the rightful heir to Casterly Rock unless Tywin figures out a way to officially block him from his inheritance. Removing them both from the equation makes Tommen the sole direct male heir of both House Lannister and Baratheon (unless Stannis has something to say about it). So please explain to me, why would anyone give up a chance to be the most powerful house in Westeros since Aegon's Landing to roll the dice on controlling the uber-remote and uncooperative North?

First off, the north is extremely wealthy and fertile, probably the largest source of untapped resources in the realm. The mountains contain gold, silver, iron, nickel, coal..... The forests offer timber, furs, food... It has farms, holdfasts and castles all over and it is in a highly defensible position thanks to Moat Cailin. It also has something that both Casterly Rock and High Garden would love to get: a port on the Narrow Sea. Right now they can trade amongst themselves easily, but to trade directly with Essos and beyond requires a long, expensive voyage around Dorne. So, sorry, but your notion that no one cares about the North is just plain wrong.

And yes, whoever wants to rule it will have to kick the Boltons and the Freys out, which is why the best way to do that is by producing the son of Ned Stark's only surviving child. And Littlefinger has no interest in the north? Littlefinger wants to rule the entire kingdom, probably not as king but as the first lord among all. He already has the Vale, his next move will probably be against the Riverlands, but with Sansa in hand he has the only way to claim it legitimately in the eyes of the northerners. Remember, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. There is no way anyone can hold Winterfell for long without Northern support, as Roose is about to find out.

As for the Tyrell's. You don't think they are the least bit concerned that Tywin Lannister is only one baby away from taking over half the kingdom? The balance of power in the region has always favored the Tyrells, Redwynes and Hightowers, by virtue of the huge armies they can field. Lannister control of the north shifts the balance of power entirely -- it's like if Russia were to suddenly take political control of Canada. But you think all Lady O cares about is how Margy fares in her marriage -- again, a supposition that is not supported anywhere in the text.

As well, there are most certainly examples of topical poisions, both lethal and non-lethal. Poison Ivy, spider bites... If you were to drink a glassful of ammonia, would it enter your stomach, absorb into the blood, circulate throughout the body and then attack a particular organ? No, it would eat your guts out on contact. You are most certainly entitled to you own opinions, but not your own facts. And regardless, even if you did need wine for the dissolution process, he took a big slug of wine right after eating the pie, so there it is, right in his mouth, dissolving away.

And there was a lot of vigorous mixing in the chalice: Tyrion has to pick it up of the table, Joffrey yanks it out of his hand, Joffrey then tips the entire thing end up to drink long and deep. All Maester Cressen did was walk around the table and hand it to Mel. So this idea that the Strangler dissolves rapidly in wine and then sits like a lump on the bottom of the glass is ludicrous. Talk about making stuff up to fit a theory.

And I readily admit that the pie theory requires supposition, but so does the wine theory. Your own post is proof of that. If it was all clearly and plainly spelled out in the book, there would be no need to discuss it.

Why would the Tyrells risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister in order to MAYBE rule the north? Why would the Tyrells risk the wrath of Tywin Lannister in order to MAYBE produce an heir four or even five years from now? A lot can happen in four years, and all the while Cersei remains in KL as Queen Regent. WIth Joffrey, they could have booted Cersei to Dorne, and have a king -- who so far has proven to be putty in Margy's hands -- who is ready and willing to produce children right now. That child would also be Lord of CR, which is the only real prize on your list: Dragonstone is an empty shell out on an island and Storm's End is a solid castle but with meager wealth.

And in any event, I never said the Tyrell's wanted to rule the north. That ship sailed with the Willas fiasco -- a plan that was foiled, BTW, by Littlefinger, so much for them working all this out right from the very start. After Willas, the next best solution was to let Littlefinger take her -- they have no way of knowing for certain that he double-crossed them, and he's the one who has all the pieces in place to make it happen. That at least puts a buffer between the Reach and the Vale/Riverlands/North combination, plus Littlefinger as Lord will not be the mad dog that is Tywin Lannister, who puts everything in sight to iron and torch when he invades.

So enjoy reading and make any interpretations that you want, but don't tell me that the wine theory is based on solid, unimpeachable fact and the pie theory isn't.

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WIth Joffrey, they could have booted Cersei to Dorne, and have a king -- who so far has proven to be putty in Margy's hands

There's nothing to indicate that in the book. Joffrey liked her, but she was not shown exerting any meaningful influence over him.

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There's nothing to indicate that in the book. Joffrey liked her, but she was not shown exerting any meaningful influence over him.

My impression of Margaery is that she's hot, she's experienced and she is more willing than most to put up with all kinds of weird stuff in the bedroom. She's also whip smart, which means she has all the tools necessary to persuade Joffrey to do things for her benefit -- particularly when it comes to things that he's not interested in, like counting coppers and settling land disputes between houses.

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My impression of Margaery is that she's hot, she's experienced and she is more willing than most to put up with all kinds of weird stuff in the bedroom. She's also whip smart, which means she has all the tools necessary to persuade Joffrey to do things for her benefit -- particularly when it comes to things that he's not interested in, like counting coppers and settling land disputes between houses.

That describes all "show Margaery" but nearly not at all "book Margaery" who comes along a lot more humble, nearly all of the time unless her brother's in mortal danger.

Who does no manipulatiion of others. And who has music and talking in her bedroom.

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We don't see a whole lot of Margaery with Joffrey before the PW, but what we do see is very telling: them riding through the city taking accolades from the crowd, where only weeks before they were throwing dung at him; him lifting her in the air and twirling her around at the wedding. Hardly the actions of a boy who despises his bride-to-be to the point that grandma needs to kill him.



And Margaery has spent her entire life under the watchful eye of the QoT and was even willing to marry Renly in order to further the aims of her house. I think it's more than reasonable to assume that she is marrying Joff in order to gain political power, not because she loves him.


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