Breakdown of Dunk's Trial by Seven - Was Maekar a Kinslayer?

[Shuvuuia]

 

The Hedge Knight is full of signs of this inferiority complex.

 

idk, I think that it is likely that his frustration at Baelor for participating in the trial, worry about his sons and old sibling complex  made him fight more violently than he would've if he was thinking straight.

But I think it actually points to him not remembering the blow, because he was so angry and on adrenalin. It seems more natural.

[Mithras]

 

I like to think he did it when he was trying to get to Dunk when he thought he was going to kill Aerion, in papa Dragon mode (there is also description of Dunk's helmet being smashed to accompany it):

 

(but my secret crackpot is that it was Lyonel when they both fought Maekar,lol)

 

Actually, that blow came from Aerion's spiked morningstar.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

He didnot keep his head down. After the Spring Sickness and the drought, people were blaming everything on Bloodraven.

He entered the lists as a Mystery Knight.  That's keeping your head down.  What exactly occurred after the aborted uprising is unknown.  Are you suggesting that he stopped keeping his head down after that?  What is your evidence for this? 

[ambi76]

He accidentally the whole brain of Baelor, so yeah. Supposedly it doesn't matter how/why you kinslay just that you do for the "curse".

[Shuvuuia]

 

Actually, that blow came from Aerion's spiked morningstar.

no, i meant as possible foreshadowing

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It certainly matters if we are trying to decide if the result of an action is intentional, or accidental. 

 

Maekar hit Baelor on the side of the head with a mace.  The intent was to put him down or knock him out.  The subsequent death was accidental. 

 

What is Maekar guilty of?  Murder?  Kinslaying?  Or simply hitting his brother in the head? 

The problem is that any hit on the head is likely to either glance of ineffectual - or be outright lethal. Getting it just right is incredible unlikely.

 

At the very least Maekar accepted a very high risk to kill Baelor - knowingly.

[Mithras]

He entered the lists as a Mystery Knight.  That's keeping your head down.  What exactly occurred after the aborted uprising is unknown.  Are you suggesting that he stopped keeping his head down after that?  What is your evidence for this? 

 

The reason why Dunk entered the lists as a mystery knight was that there were many Lords at the wedding and some of them might have recalled Dunk from Ashford. Maekar ordered them to keep Egg's identity a secret and that was their main concern, not some badmouthing about Baelor. Because after Dunk was identified, Egg could have been identified too as Egg (the bald squire) was identified as the son of Maekar in Ashford. After all, Dunk was charged with kidnapping Egg and shaving his head along with assault on Aerion.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The problem is that any hit on the head is likely to either glance of ineffectual - or be outright lethal. Getting it just right is incredible unlikely.

 

 

I'm not sure what the basis for this is.  What percentage of people hit in the head in a trial, by a mace, die? 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If they are hit hard enough to put them down? A lot. That's what maces are designed to do and mace strikes can't be finetuned to the necessary degree to avoid it.

[Shuvuuia]

The problem is that any hit on the head is likely to either glance of ineffectual - or be outright lethal. Getting it just right is incredible unlikely.

 

At the very least Maekar accepted a very high risk to kill Baelor - knowingly.

but was he beating him on the head all their fight? He could've been aiming at body/shoulders and hits on the head came only when he was trying to get to Dunk or when he lost control due to anger/rush. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Possible.

 

But whenever he started to aim for the head, right then he was at least willing to take a big risk to kill him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Another important thing to consider:
 
In a regular tourney, if a jouster unhorses the other with a good strike, the fallen one (if not unconscious) usually congratulates him and yields the match because of chivalry. Or in some cases, the unhorsed knight can challenge his opponent to face him on foot though this is not a common occurrence. For once, being hit by a lance in a jousting contest and falling to the ground from the back of a horse is not easy experience. Not many knights can rise up after this fall and keep their strength to fight on foot. Second, one must really have a good reason to not yield after being unhorsed. Appearing like a greedy fella who does not know how to lose, who does not respect the opponents skills is not chivalrous and the watchers would definitely protest such dishonorable knights.
 
Therefore, after being unhorsed, the common practice is to yield the match. But in a trial by seven, one should fight until the bitter end because it is not a game. That is why Maekar and Roland kept fighting although they were most probably unhorsed in the first tilt. Normally they would yield after being unhorsed if this was a tourney match. But they stood up and kept fighting.
 
That means the plan of Baelor to use tourney lances against war lances in a trial by seven was not as bright as one would presume. Unless you are a prodigious jouster, it is very hard to eliminate an armored opponent by hitting him with a wooden lance. After a short period of dizziness, that person should rise and keep fighting, especially if they have strong builds and high damage tolerance like Maekar and Roland had.

Baelor's hope surely was to unhorse their opponents while maintaining their own mounts, thus securing a decisive advantage.

[Shuvuuia]

Possible.

 

But whenever he started to aim for the head, right then he was at least willing to take a big risk to kill him.

I'm not sure GRRM himself thought it out to that level.

I think unless there are hints in future D&E, I would stick to Maekar's explanation as mostly true. 

[Mithras]

Turning Thunder in a tight circle, he tried to get a sense of what was happening elsewhere on the field. Ser Humfrey Hardyng clung to the neck of his mount, obviously wounded. The other Ser Humfrey lay motionless in a lake of bloodstained mud, a broken lance protruding from his groin. He saw Prince Baelor gallop past, lance still intact, and drive one of the Kingsguard from his saddle. Another of the white knights was already down, and Maekar had been unhorsed as well. The third of the Kingsguard was fending off Ser Robyn Rhysling.

 

One thing I had not considered. Baelor unhorsed Maekar and somehow his spear did not break. Still on horse, he unseated another KG on horse (my guess would be Ser Donnel who had slain Ser Humfrey Beesbury a little while ago). I don’t think Baelor faced this KG at the first tilt because Baelor’s great black stallion was the fastest and Dunk could see him gaining advance as they rode. There is also the fact that without any obstacle to make separate lanes to the jousters, they rode directly against each other and their horses smashed against each other.

 

So, Baelor unhorsed Maekar without breaking his spear. It is not impossible. Ser Humfrey Hardyng unhorsed Lord Tully in the previous day and his spear was intact.

 

A tall knight stood above him, in black armor dinted and scarred by many blows. Prince Baelor. The scarlet dragon on his helm had lost a head, both wings, and most of its tail.

 

Baelor suffered many blows both to the torso and to the head. In fact, you can see that he didnot have a single blow to the head, but many. One cannot destroy a head of the three-headed dragon on his helm along with wings and tail.

[Shuvuuia]

 

A tall knight stood above him, in black armor dinted and scarred by many blows. Prince Baelor. The scarlet dragon on his helm had lost a head, both wings, and most of its tail.

 

Baelor suffered many blows both to the torso and to the head. In fact, you can see that he didnot have a single blow to the head, but many. One cannot destroy a head of the three-headed dragon on his helm along with wings and tail.

it is true, but think Maekar just went into a battle frenzy at some point, I don't think there is an indication that he consciously thought about possibility of killing Baelor. In real life maybe he should've, but battles and weapons in the books are always sketchy/simplistic.

 

Or -also speculation- Maekar simply couldn't imaginehis big brother dying, especially at Maekar's hand. Especially if Maekar thought that Baelor was always better.

 

It is difficult to analize a character about whom we know very little about, but Maekar's own explanation seem to me most fitting for a minor character like him and most tragic.

 

(and also that dragon decoration was kinda dorky, maybe Maekar just tried to get rid of it)

[Mithras]

And note that by the time Dunk beat the shit out of Aerion, all the KG were out of the game, Baelor and Lyonel were beating Maekar into submission. That would not be a proper time for Maekar to land these blows to Baelor.