R+L=J v.89

[Kingmonkey]

Welcome to the forums! :cheers:

Thanks!

This is the best place to present your alternatives, if you're looking for answers. This thread is frequented by several individuals who really know the ins and outs of Jon's parentage. On the other hand, people who are looking for validation of their pet non-RLJ theory aren't always receptive to the responses they receive.

I have no pet theory, as I said in my post, I'm almost a believer in R+L=J. It makes total sense, it fits the evidence, it's a good theory. It just makes me uneasy. I'm not the only one. While I can't find the specific reference right now, GRRM's SO is on record as saying something along the lines "George wouldn't do something that obvious" when asked about R+L=J.

I think it goes without saying that R+L=J is the best fit for the evidence, probably by far (though having said that, we should keep in mind that a lot of the evidence that we have for what happened in the Tower of Joy was in the form of a fever dream, and can't be considered entirely trustworthy). So no, no pet theories, but an interest in exploring the question "Suppose R+L=J turns out to not be true after all?"

The most obvious non-R would have to be Dayne, just because he was in the right place at the right time -- and from a storytelling viewpoint, it's quite a strong one. The Sword of Morning is sitting there waiting for a claimant, which suggests that at some point there will be one. Edric "Ned" Dayne hints at there being some surprisingly positive feeling toward the Starks given Eddard killed Arthur (and then there's the whole gamut of Eddard/Ashara theories to tie in).

A far less obvious non-R that's occurred to me in a rather twisted and [crackpottish] way is... wait for it... Domeric Bolton.Yes, evidence for it is scanty to say the least. However, when Roose talks about Domeric, he says "Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him", implying that the two may have known each other and raced together. Domeric also played the harp -- perhaps Lyanna's tears at the tourney of Harrenhal were not because Rhaegar's song was sad, but that his harp playing reminded her of her secret love? Might a young Domeric have even been the Knight of the Laughing Shield, given that we know he was an accomplished rider ("Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists.")? Finally we have Alfie Allen's comment about Jon's father being a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. For Jon to be the grandson of Roose Bolton would certainly fit that.

The two big problems with D+L are age and opportunity. For age, I haven't been able to find anything definitive, but Domeric's mother was Bethany Ryswell, and her younger sister Barbary apparently had an affair with Brandon, which makes it entirely possible that Domeric was old enough. As for opportunity, I got nothing.

[Alia of the knife]

Please be gentle. ..,

[BearQueen87]

GRRM's SO is on record as saying something along the lines "George wouldn't do something that obvious" when asked about R+L=J.

She later said that she didn't know. And let's be honest, if she did...would she spill? It's THE secret of ASOIAF. 20 years now, is it? All to be spilled in an interview?

I think it goes without saying that R+L=J is the best fit for the evidence, probably by far (though having said that, we should keep in mind that a lot of the evidence that we have for what happened in the Tower of Joy was in the form of a fever dream, and can't be considered entirely trustworthy). So no, no pet theories, but an interest in exploring the question "Suppose R+L=J turns out to not be true after all?"

Ah, but the fever dream is an OLD dream. He's had it before, without the fever.

[Kingmonkey]

Only, Ned never refer to or thinks of Jon as his son.

This pops up a lot in discussion. How true is it really? Ned actually does refer to Jon as one of his sons at least once.

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them. He waved and shouted down at them. "Father, Bran, come quickly, see what Robb has found!" Then he was gone again.

Jory rode up beside them. "Trouble, my lord?"

"Beyond a doubt," his lord father said. "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."

-AGoT chapter 1

As for the rest of your post -- yes, I get your point, and have no argument with it. Of course it is possible to use a clichéd trope in an interesting way and write a good story with it. Clichés are clichés for a good reason: they're stories people use again and again, because people love to hear those stories. However there's no arguing that the "son of a prince and a lady, that was raised by his uncle as a nobody" is a cliché. GRRM loves confounding clichés. That doesn't mean that he can't be using one here, it just suggest the possibility that he might be trolling us with it.

[honeyed chicken]

I am not a newbie but I have a question that must have been covered here.

We know that Ned's official story of Jon's parentage is that Wylla was his mother. We also know from Edric Dayne of Starfall that he & Jon Snow were "milk brothers" because Wylla was Edric's wetnurse.

Then in ADWD Davos is told by Godric Borrell that Ned left a bastard in the belly of a fisherman's daughter in the 3 Sisters and that she named him Jon Snow.

SO, we have 3 potential parent couples for Jon Snow:

- Lyanna/Rhaegar

- Ned/Wylla

- Ned/Fisherman's daughter

The first one we believe, the second we suspect was a cover story, and the third one? It seems likely it was wishful thinking on the part of the fisherman's daughter that her child was the son of a lord. It also seems likely to me that Ned did not stick around the Sisters (Aerys' men were after him) long enough to be told of this child if indeed it was his.

in any case, whether Ned was the father or not, it seems believable (as Borrell said) that the mother named her child Jon Snow. It also seems likely to me that he is not the Jon Snow we know.

So maybe there is another Jon Snow running around Westeros?

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

Concerning the "pet theory" stuff I said in my previous post, I meant to imply that I was speaking in general, not specifically about you.

One thing to keep in mind is that Lyanna became pregnant with Jon after she disappeared with Rhaegar. So I think we can safely rule out Domeric Bolton.

While Arthur Dayne would have had the opportunity to impregnate Lyanna, based on timing and location, I would again direct you to the blue roses that Ned repeatedly associates with Lyanna, including at the ToJ, where she was in her "bed of blood." The origin of Lyanna's blue roses is the QoLaB's crown that Rhaegar gave her. I think this point is somewhat overlooked, tbh. It seems like lots of people don't quite make the connection.

I go into more depth about the blue roses in a thread of mine, if you want to have a look - Link

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

- AGoT, Eddard I

Found in Ned’s first chapter, the phrase “blood and roses” conveys quite a bit of information, once you know what you’re looking at. But to understand exactly why this early reference means what it does we must look ahead. In Eddard X, Ned remembers Lyanna in her “bed of blood” which we know means birthing bed thanks to MMD. In Eddard XV, we learn where Lyanna’s roses come from. Rhaegar Targaryen named her the QoLaB when he placed a crown of winter roses in her lap, following his victory in the joust at the Harrenhal tourney.

So, “blood and roses” looks like shorthand for “bed of blood” and “crown of winter roses" to me. The former means childbirth, while the latter connects Rhaegar to Lyanna. In other words, it tells us that Lyanna had given birth, and the baby's father was Rhaegar.

[Kingmonkey]

She later said that she didn't know. And let's be honest, if she did...would she spill? It's THE secret of ASOIAF. 20 years now, is it? All to be spilled in an interview?

Interesting! I never found the actual source for this, only people referring to it, so I really have no context. As for would she spill it? Maybe. Denying one theory wouldn't be the same as revealing the truth. When put on the spot, it's quite believable that she'd feel that just so long as she didn't reveal his real parents, it would be ok.

On the other hand, if R+L=J is true, and she said it was too obvious for GRRM to use, then that could turn out to be fun: "You killed Arya!" "You called me obvious!". :box:

[BearQueen87]

I am not a newbie but I have a question that must have been covered here.

We know that Ned's official story of Jon's parentage is that Wylla was his mother. We also know from Edric Dayne of Starfall that he & Jon Snow were "milk brothers" because Wylla was Edric's wetnurse.

Then in ADWD Davos is told by Godric Borrell that Ned left a bastard in the belly of a fisherman's daughter in the 3 Sisters and that she named him Jon Snow.

SO, we have 3 potential parent couples for Jon Snow:

- Lyanna/Rhaegar

- Ned/Wylla

- Ned/Fisherman's daughter

The first one we believe, the second we suspect was a cover story, and the third one? It seems likely it was wishful thinking on the part of the fisherman's daughter that her child was the son of a lord. It also seems likely to me that Ned did not stick around the Sisters (Aerys' men were after him) long enough to be told of this child if indeed it was his.

in any case, whether Ned was the father or not, it seems believable (as Borrell said) that the mother named her child Jon Snow. It also seems likely to me that he is not the Jon Snow we know.

So maybe there is another Jon Snow running around Westeros?

According to GRRM, Ned named Jon, Jon. The fisherman's wife story, I believe, is considered to be an outright lie.

[Kingmonkey]

Concerning the "pet theory" stuff I said in my previous post, I meant to imply that I was speaking in general, not specifically about you.

One thing to keep in mind is that Lyanna became pregnant with Jon after she disappeared with Rhaegar. So I think we can safely rule out Domeric Bolton.

Understood on the pet theory thing, and appreciated the warning. Just wanted to clarify that I have no axe to grind here, just curiosity!

The opportunity issue for Domeric is the big one, and as I said, I got nothing there. I see no hint of how that could have happened, otherwise I'd see it as a pretty compelling theory rather than borderline crackpottery. We know that the Boltons and presumably the Redforts of the Vale who Domeric may have been squiring with at the time were on the other side of the rebellion. Maybe Roose was playing both sides to some degree, as we saw he did in the War of the Five Kings? That might explain his eagerness to see Selmy killed after the battle of the trident, as he might have feared that Selmy would know something. I guess that leaves a chink of possibility.

The origin of Lyanna's blue roses is the QoLaB's crown that Rhaegar gave her. I think this point is somewhat overlooked, tbh. It seems like lots of people don't quite make the connection.

It's an interesting point, but I'm not convinced. Blue Roses are grown at Winterfell and closely linked to Starks. Bael's story specifically links a blue rose with a Stark daughter, so the connection clearly pre-dates the tourney at Harrenhal by a long time. Would the crown for the Queen of Love and Beauty have been made from blue roses had Rhaegar not intended to give it to Lyanna?

[BearQueen87]

It's an interesting point, but I'm not convinced. Blue Roses are grown at Winterfell and closely linked to Starks. Bael's story specifically links a blue rose with a Stark daughter, so the connection clearly pre-dates the tourney at Harrenhal by a long time. Would the crown for the Queen of Love and Beauty have been made from blue roses had Rhaegar not intended to give it to Lyanna?

I'm not sure about your second querey, I'll leave that to J. Stargaryen.

But I think it's worth examing Bael's story because it's basically a parallel R and L.

You have Bael, later King-Beyond-the-Wall, who is a very impressive singer (Rhaegar was known for playing his harp and singing; at Harrenhal we are told Lyanna weeps to hear him play)

When the Lord of Winterfell is so impressed he gives Bael a blue rose from his own garden because they were the most beautiful (blue roses signaling beauty; the Queen of Love and Beauty is what Rhaegar crowns Lyanna)

The next morning the young virgin only daughter of the lord is missing (Lyanna, the young virgin, only daughter of Lord Stark is "taken")

They search high and low until the daughter turns up in her room, with a child, having been stashed in the crypts (Lyanna had a child, if we're right, and the evidence for this is probably in the crypts of Winterfell, a place Jon keeps dreaming about)

When the Bael and his son do battle, the Son kills Bael. Showing the head to his mother, the now grown up woman jumps from her tower because she loved Bael (Lyanna dies in a tower and probably loved Rhaegar)

[Kingmonkey]

Bael asks for the most beautiful flower in that has grown at Winterfell, and is given a blue rose. He swaps the blue rose for Brandon Stark's daughter, leaving it on her bed in her place. I'd say that makes a direct correspondence between Stark girls and blue roses. The parallels between the two stories are interesting but not conclusive. It's pretty important to the Bael story that it's Bael's son who kills him (kinslaying is a BIG thing in ASoIaF), which obviously has no parallel in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.

[Alia of the knife]

And slowly it turns.....

[BearQueen87]

Bael asks for the most beautiful flower in that has grown at Winterfell, and is given a blue rose. He swaps the blue rose for Brandon Stark's daughter, leaving it on her bed in her place. I'd say that makes a direct correspondence between Stark girls and blue roses. The parallels between the two stories are interesting but not conclusive. It's pretty important to the Bael story that it's Bael's son who kills him (kinslaying is a BIG thing in ASoIaF), which obviously has no parallel in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.

Here we go! The thread I was searching for : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82623-jon-snow-and-the-blue-winter-rosetta-stone/

Everything you ever wanted to know about Jon Snow and Blue Roses.

ETA: Ninjaed by J. Stargaryen AN HOUR AGO?! whoooops. that's what I get for not reading each point apparently

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Rhaegar presents Lyanna with her favorite flower at the tourney. She goes gaga for him. Of course, she is with Ned at the time too. Robert is in the tourney too. Rhaegar was already married with a wife and children of his own. I think Elia was or was not pregnant with Dany during the time of the tourney. I'll have to put some reasonable research in it.

[BearQueen87]

Rhaegar presents Lyanna with her favorite flower at the tourney. She goes gaga for him. Of course, she is with Ned at the time too. Robert is in the tourney too. Rhaegar was already married with a wife and children of his own. I think Elia was or was not pregnant with Dany during the time of the tourney. I'll have to put some reasonable research in it.

Ok, well let me help you.

1) Lyanna did not go gaga because of the flower incident. She was already a little bit smitten the night before when Rhaegar played his harp and sang. Lyanna was much more of an Arya figure, though she is like Sansa too. Lyanna had wolf's blood, hence her stint as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

2) Rhaegar was married, but he only had one child at the time, his daughter Rhaenys. Aegon, his son, was shortly conceived after Harrenhal.

3) Elia is NOT Dany's mother. Rhaegar is Dany's BROTHER, not FATHER. Dany's mother was Queen Rhaella and her father was King Aerys, the Mad King.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Sorry, my mistake.

I forgot that Dany and Jon are close in age. He was fourteen when the first book started. Dany was thirteen.

I heard a lot of theories with Ned and the fisherman's wife along with Ned/Wylla.

[BearQueen87]

Sorry, my mistake.

I forgot that Dany and Jon are close in age. He was fourteen when the first book started. Dany was thirteen.

I heard a lot of theories with Ned and the fisherman's wife along with Ned/Wylla.

The fisherman's daughter is pretty much a piece of gossip.

Wylla is the very cleverly planned cover story. Or at least that's what most of us think. Wylla was most likely at the ToJ as a midwife to assist Lyanna in birth. She was brought up from Starfall, the Dayne House (Arthur Dayne being one of the KG at the ToJ). The Dayne's were very loyal to the Targaryen's. In other words, they can be trusted to keep a secret like this. Ned travels to Starfall after the battle at the Tower, with Wylla and Jon in tow and stays until Jon is ready for travel.

[Ser Leftwich]

Two amusing story elements that allude to R+L=J.

1) Ned ends up being executed for treason. Which is something he is technically guilty of for all these years, if Jon was in fact, a legal heir of Rhaegar. Just dessert for Ned.

2) Jon Snow (the lost prince of all lost princes) discovers a lost prince that surprises the hell out of readers during AGoT, one Aemon Targaryen.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

R+L=J is true.

While Dany was in the temple of the Undying, she had a vision about the wall. A blue rose at the wall.

[BearQueen87]

Two amusing story elements that allude to R+L=J.

1) Ned ends up being executed for treason. Which is something he is technically guilty of for all these years, if Jon was in fact, a legal heir of Rhaegar. Just dessert for Ned.

2) Jon Snow (the lost prince of all lost princes) discovers a lost prince that surprises the hell out of readers during AGoT, one Aemon Targaryen.

That's one of my favorite Jon POVs. The realization... "Aemon...Targaryen?!" The Maester who might have been king, talking to the boy who will might be king.