Conversation with a Dying Man, Vol 2: Dance for me, Spider.

[Dr. Pepper]

butterbumps! and I* previously created a thread analyzing the dialogue between Kevan and Varys as it related to Aegon's identity. This thread seeks to explore the conversation OUTSIDE of whether or not Varys was lying about Aegon. We posit that there is a yet-unidentified audience that Varys is addressing. This thread assumes consistency of text, so it’s not a place to discuss whether or not Martin decided to break the fourth wall. We are specifically looking at what Varys is saying to see who his IN STORY audience might be.

The quote below includes just the dialogue for their scene:

"Tyrion?” he called. “Where …?”

“Far away,” a half-familiar voice replied.

“Varys?” The eunuch set the crossbow down.

“Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

“There are … there are hundreds of Lannister guardsmen in this castle.”

“But none in this room, thankfully. This pains me, my lord. You do not deserve to die alone on such a cold dark night. There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes … but you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule. So …”

“Are you cold, my lord?” asked Varys. “Do forgive me. The Grand Maester befouled himself in dying, and the stink was so abominable that I thought I might choke.”

“I thought the crossbow fitting . You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that ? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

“Aegon?” “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No. He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right . Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.” “I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I know , yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it.” The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle.

The conversation include a warning, acknowledgement of a power vacuum that will leave the listener with only weak allies, the promise of a stronger ally (Aegon), who can now win because of this power vacuum, and that Aegon will be a king who supports populist agendas.

The warning aspect of this shows a sense of ruthlessness on Varys’ part that extends beyond the fact that he just killed two high ranking officials. First, Kevan appeals to the hundreds of guardsmen in the castle. The assasinations show the as yet unidentified audience that no authority figure, no matter how high, is invulnerable to Varys’ network and anyone could find themselves similarly ended if they interfere with his aims. Later, there is the decided lack of dignity and consideration offered to Kevan in his final moments. It’s very cold, yet Varys’ states his own olfactory comfort is of primary concern. So those that interfere die and it could be cruel.

These warnings relate to the power vacuum Varys acknowledges. Kevan had been working to smooth things over with the various factions creating a strong ally for those who seek it. In front of this unidentified audience, Varys explains tht Dorne, Lannisters and Tyrells are about to implode in a power vacuum. Killing Pycelle and Kevan demonstrates that Lannister authority is done, which also means that the Tyrells will be losing their authority as well. This unidentified audience is left with weak allies, and Varys promises an alternative.

Varys’ description of this potential stronger ally is where we can really start piecing together who the unidentified audience might be. Varys waxes poetic about how Aegon has been raised and trained to be a king who supports the populist agenda. This appeal to how Aegon is a king raised among the people and trained to lead for the people is particularly interesting because it is not something the nobles are concerned about, thus removing noble power players from the suspect list for the unidentified audience.

Instead, we must look to other characters, specifically one who has made himself known as a person with a sincere and invested concern for the smallfolk. The High Sparrow is one such character.

The first duties the HS embarked on were those that would ensure the people were fed. He stripped the Faith of luxury and used the capital from this to feed the poor. When Cersei first visited with the HS, he was weighing his options on which side to back.

"The realm is full of kings. For the Faith to exalt one above the rest we must be certain."

His uncertainty stemms from the fact that the crown did little to protect and defend the smallfolk and were in fact largely the cause of the devastation the ordinary person faced.

“As you say. Yet it must be asked—where were the king’s knights when these things were being done? Did not Jaehaerys the Conciliator once swear upon the Iron Throne itself that the crown would always protect and defend the Faith?”

The HS says that he will pray and fast “for as long as need be” before deciding which king he will choose to support.

So we have a character whose primary concern is the ordinary person and who has stated that he is not making a decision until he is certain. The crown under Tommen is not a palatable option seeing as the crown is largely the cause of the suffering his followers have faced. He notes that there are other kings to choose from, but at this time those other kings are also lacking seeing as two of them are not even of the Faith.

With the HS or his representative as the unidentified audience, Varys’ monologue about Aegon is given proper context. It appeals to the things the HS is specifically seeking in a king. Aegon has been raised away from pomp and luxury, he knows firsthand the plight of the smallfolk as he experienced it himself, and he’s also educated in the manner one hopes a leader to be. The most interesting part is that Aegon being taught by a Septa warranted it’s own sentence, which strongly indicates that a strong foundation in the Faith is very important to the listener.

We like the High Septon as the suspect Varys is addressing here, but we're open to other ideas in the matter. Mostly, we'd like to spend time discussing the rest of Varys' speech away from a specific focus on Aegon, and looking at what he's really saying between the lines.

*This thread is brought to you by Harpy Incorporated.

[butterbumps!]

Excellent OP. To add to this, this is how I parse Varys' dialogue:

He wanted guards, Ser Kevan thought. I should have sent him guards. Could Cersei have been right all along? Was this his nephew’s work? “Tyrion?” he called. “Where … ?”

“Far away,” a half-familiar voice replied.

He stood in a pool of shadow by a bookcase, plump, pale- faced, round-shouldered, clutching a crossbow in soft powdered hands. Silk slippers swaddled his feet.

(So it's cold and dark in the room, conditions making it quite easy for a dying man with a bolt in his chest to miss anyone else standing there.)

“Varys?”

The eunuch set the crossbow down. “Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

"This isn't personal, but for a greater cause: the good of the realm."

I have children. I have a wife. Oh, Dorna. Pain washed over him. He closed his eyes, opened them again. “There are … there are hundreds of Lannister guardsmen in this castle.”

“But none in this room, thankfully. This pains me, my lord. You do not deserve to die alone on such a cold dark night. There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes … but you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule. So …”

"Not even guards can protect a high-ranking official from me. Again, it's not personal. You are competent and good, but have been applying your skills to shoring up Tommen's rule, which is the wrong cause. My plans require that Tyrells and Lannisters remain at odds, without the support of the Faith, and the realm in disunity." (interesting coming from someone claiming to be working for the good of the realm).

A gust of wind blew up. Ser Kevan shivered violently. “Are you cold, my lord?” asked Varys. “Do forgive me. The Grand Maester befouled himself in dying, and the stink was so abominable that I thought I might choke.”

Ser Kevan tried to rise, but the strength had left him. He could not feel his legs.

"I am keeping the window open because Pycelle shat himself, and I can't bear the smell. I realize you are dying in great pain and cold, but my nose can't handle the scent if I close the window. I'm a cold and ruthless man who cares more about my own olfactory preferences than Pycelle's dignity in death, or your comfort while dying."

“I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

"To fulfill my own sardonic sense of humor, I have chosen to kill you with a crossbow, which also has the added bonus of making Tyrion a suspect. This is how it will play out. Lannister, Tyrell and Dornish will never reconcile after your deaths are discovered. A power vacuum will emerge. Aegon will fill that vacuum, so best join the winning side."

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

"Aegon is here, and has been shaped to become the perfect monarch due to the following: knight's training, well-rounded education, long-term religious education with a Septa. A real Renaissance Man. But more, here's lived humbly amongst the smallfolk, done manual labor, has basic every-day skills, as he isn't served but performs these tasks himself, and can empathize with the smallfolk. Unlike kings in Westeros, he's been taught that kingship is his duty, and he must put his subjects first. He exists for their benefit, not the other way around."

Kevan Lannister tried to cry out … to his guards, his wife, his brother … but the words would not come. Blood dribbled from his mouth. He shuddered violently.

“I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it.” The eunuch pursed his lips and gave a little whistle.

(Kevan is too far gone to be of much value as a conversationalist at this point. Varys ends it, spinning it as mercy."

In short, I think this exchange reads for someone other than Kevan, for the reasons you summarized above. It's almost as though Varys is using Kevan as the Glaucon to his Socrates to demonstrate a few important points to someone else:

1. No one is safe from me (sharp threat)

2. I am working for "the realm." (sweet promise)

3. I am creating a power vacuum, and you will find yourself alone (sharp threat)

4. Aegon is the only winning choice (sharp threat)

5. Aegon has been trained to be a good, populist king (sweet promise)

[nastydream]

Am i the only one to think that this was just exposition?

Varys has no reason to talk about his plans to a man he's about to kill.Sounds like the villains in movies :/

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Am i the only one to think that this was just exposition?

Varys has no reason to talk about his plans to a man he's about to kill.Sounds like the villains in movies :/

No you are not, but the OP could not have been more clear that this is not the place to discuss that argument:

This thread assumes consistency of text, so it’s not a place to discuss whether or not Martin decided to break the fourth wall. We are specifically looking at what Varys is saying to see who his IN STORY audience might be.

[butterbumps!]

Am i the only one to think that this was just exposition?

Varys has no reason to talk about his plans to a man he's about to kill.Sounds like the villains in movies :/

Like OAR said, I don't think this is the place to discuss that angle. But, for the record, after 5 books, Martin's never given us a spoken confessional like this unless there's someone else there who's listening. Look at Arya III, aGoT: Varys and Ill spill their plans, but Arya is listening. Her having heard them is significant, because she can use that knowledge later. Look as well at the LF-Lysa-Sansa confessional; that's info Sansa can use.

But this thread is for in-text implications-- figureing out who Varys' audience is, whether that audience is formally with him, or someone Varys suspects is spying on him, or whatever the case may be.

[nastydream]

No you are not, but the OP could not have been more clear that this is not the place to discuss that argument:

My bad,but didn't know what the "breaking the fourth wall" means.

[alienarea]

Am i the only one to think that this was just exposition?

Varys has no reason to talk about his plans to a man he's about to kill.Sounds like the villains in movies :/

Agreed. I'm expecting Kevan to wear a crossbow bolt proof vest (especially after Tywin's demise), rise and fight Varys.

Seriously, Varys doing this for the High Septon does not make a lot of sense to me unless Varys is a follower of the Faith and Aegon is a means to bring the Faith into power (which on the other hands fits the mummer's dragon). And I didn't pick that up from the books so far.

[butterbumps!]

Seriously, Varys doing this for the High Septon does not make a lot of sense to me unless Varys is a follower of the Faith and Aegon is a means to bring the Faith into power (which on the other hands fits the mummer's dragon). And I didn't pick that up from the books so far.

It might not be the Faith, but the HS is pretty much one of the only characters (with power) in the story who cares about responsibility to the people, who'd care that Aegon was trained by a septa, and would be moved by the fact that Aegon is not accustomed to having servants, performing all sorts of menial tasks on his own (the HS strips the Faith of extraneous luxury, and puts the entire septon hierarchy to work doing menial labor).

The fact that Varys gives a thorough rundown of Aegon's populist leanings is significant. Kevan most certainly wouldn't care about any of that last paragraph-- it would be meaningless to him. As exposition it doesn't work-- you'd think Varys would be instead going into depth about how he managed to pull off a major baby swap, telling us how it was truly done. No, it looks like this message is for a person, in story, who'd care about a populist king.

And yes, Varys would want the Faith to endorse Aegon. The Faith is recently armed and a powerful institution within Westeros. You don't want the Faith fighting against Aegon, or joining powers with another candidate. The Faith's blessing is an important gesture (hence, why Cersei appeals to the HS to anoint Tommen in the first place), as well as a potential danger if they use their recently-sanctioned arms against Aegon.

[Fanless Mace]

Perhaps it's Varys's own army of lurking knife-wielding juvenile assassin spiders that he has tailored this message for. He needs them to be true believers, as they will grow up to be guardians of new King (F)Aegon

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that someone else might be listening and that Varys is talking for their benefit. The whole "why lie to a dying man" thing was never the real issue. The real issue is, "Why say anything to a dying man?" You might talk to a dying man if the dying man were not your only audience.

The Faith is being militarized again. Cersei may very well be on the chopping block, and depending on how Margaery's trial goes (I for one think something unfortunate will happen there; an innocent verdict is simply too easy), the Faith may find itself turned against both the Lannisters and the Tyrells. But then what? What's going to happen to this populist High Septon and his horde of militarized followers? They need someone to follow. Why not Aegon? The info-dump on the septa's education in the Faith, which is more spiritual than practical, strikes me as a head nod of sorts to the Faith.

Something is going to have to come out of the Faith Militant, and I'd argue that the Cersei/Margaery angle is actually about to wrap up, to whatever end. As DP's OP showed, the High Septon was already eye-balling other candidates when Cersei wanted his blessing earlier. He's definitely shopping around, and Aegon is a good candidate.

It also means that we might see the Faith, for Aegon, fighting against the followers of the Red God, for Dany, in a second Dance. As people have not unreasonably pointed out, the Faith would never go for Stannis because of his religious conversion. The same concept should hold true for Dany if she also converts, which at least a few people think she'll do if/when she gets wind of the notion that these people think she's their prophesied figure.

[Dr. Pepper]

Seriously, Varys doing this for the High Septon does not make a lot of sense to me unless Varys is a follower of the Faith and Aegon is a means to bring the Faith into power (which on the other hands fits the mummer's dragon). And I didn't pick that up from the books so far.

We opened it up for other suggestions on who the unidentified listener might be. If you disagree that it's the HS, who do you think it is?

Our OP does not suggest that Varys is a follower of the Faith, but rather is appealing to the Faith to be a follower of Aegon. The High Sparrow has delayed in offering his blessing to Tommen and told Cersei he would pray "for as long as need be" before he made a decision. Varys here is sort of answering his prayer because he's acknowledging all of the issues the HS brought up with Cersei. Yet he's also offering a warning of sorts. There's an ultimatum here. Not only has Varys just assassinated two high-ranking officials which will cause the groups in KL to implode leaving the listener with weak allies should he seek to stay on their side, he's also made clear that whomever is listening is just as vulnerable as Kevan and Pycelle were despite being surrounded by hundreds of armed guards. It's like saying "well, you have one option now and look here, your option is really palatable!"

[alienarea]

It might not be the Faith, but the HS is pretty much one of the only characters (with power) in the story who cares about responsibility to the people, who'd care that Aegon was trained by a septa, and would be moved by the fact that Aegon is not accustomed to having servants, performing all sorts of menial tasks on his own (the HS strips the Faith of extraneous luxury, and puts the entire septon hierarchy to work doing menial labor).

The fact that Varys gives a thorough rundown of Aegon's populist leanings is significant. Kevan most certainly wouldn't care about any of that last paragraph-- it would be meaningless to him. As exposition it doesn't work-- you'd think Varys would be instead going into depth about how he managed to pull off a major baby swap, telling us how it was truly done. No, it looks like this message is for a person, in story, who'd care about a populist king.

And yes, Varys would want the Faith to endorse Aegon. The Faith is recently armed and a powerful institution within Westeros. You don't want the Faith fighting against Aegon, or joining powers with another candidate. The Faith's blessing is an important gesture (hence, why Cersei appeals to the HS to anoint Tommen in the first place), as well as a potential danger if they use their recently-sanctioned arms against Aegon.

This is all good and true. But I do not like it at all from a storytelling point of view.

ASoIaF already has the fight for the Iron Throne and the threat of the Others. Now adding a religious component into the mix as a player?

I am afraid that leads to

- more than seven books

- the existing plots not being strong enough

- new Faith Militant POVs

And it does not calm my suspicion that GRRM changed the story when he scrapped the five year gap.

Just to crack a pot en passant:

Mayhaps the three kingsguard at the ToJ swore an oath to the Faith and therefore behaved like they did?

[Aeron_Damphair]

Varys is not squeamish about killing for political reasons when necessary. You saw it in Game of Thrones when the small council were discussing the matter of Daenerys needing to be killed to prevent thousands more dying if her child rallied the Dothraki to war.

Here we have Varys making a calculated assassination for a political purpose, but Varys is nevertheless inclined to tell Kevan exactly why it is that he must die. Kind of on the same level as: the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword, and owes it to this man to hear his final words.

Varys is not an immoral man perse. I believe because he truly bears Kevan no ill will, he felt it only fair that he explain to him why he needs to be eliminated. I don't think there's any more to it than that (aside from the exposition aspect of course).

[butterbumps!]

Varys is not an immoral man perse. I believe because he truly bears Kevan no ill will, he felt it only fair that he explain to him why he needs to be eliminated. I don't think there's any more to it than that (aside from the exposition aspect of course).

What's "fair" about staging this justification exposition while Kevan dies freezing cold and in agony? It should be really clear that his apologies and explanation are not for Kevan's benefit. All he needed to say is: "You are a good man, but bound to a bad cause. I'm sorry" and ended Kevan there if we're going to go with the "fairness" angle to Kevan.

This is all good and true. But I do not like it at all from a storytelling point of view.

ASoIaF already has the fight for the Iron Throne and the threat of the Others. Now adding a religious component into the mix as a player?

I am afraid that leads to

- more than seven books

- the existing plots not being strong enough

- new Faith Militant POVs

And it does not calm my suspicion that GRRM changed the story when he scrapped the five year gap.

Just to crack a pot en passant:

Mayhaps the three kingsguard at the ToJ swore an oath to the Faith and therefore behaved like they did?

I'm not sure I'm following this. Martin's already included the Faith (as well as R'hllor) as interest groups with a stake in the power game. The Faith is already something that our various political players are accounting for, recognizing it as a powerful institution one wants on their side. Any claimant-- other than someone who is respresenting another religion-- will want the Faith on its side, and no one wants this newly enfranchised group fighting against them.

[Aeron_Damphair]

Well it's not fair that he's killing him, but IMO, Varys felt a moral obligation to tell him why he must die. I don't think there's more to it than that, but I suppose it's possible that there could be. Just my opinion.

[joluoto2]

Am i the only one to think that this was just exposition?

Varys has no reason to talk about his plans to a man he's about to kill.Sounds like the villains in movies :/

I think Varys had watched all the classics the night before this, which is why he felt like talking.

[butterbumps!]

Well it's not fair that he's killing him, but IMO, Varys felt a moral obligation to tell him why he must die. I don't think there's more to it than that, but I suppose it's possible that there could be. Just my opinion.

So tell him simply, "You are a good man, in service to a bad cause, and I'm sorry for killing you." Then end it. There's nothing fair about drawing out the man's agony to wax poetic about what a great populist king Aegon is going to make, especially to someone like Kevan who doesn't subscribe to those principles. I'm pointing out that what goes against your argument is the fact that Varys is drawing it out, not merely killing him.

I'm also going to add that the reader needs no exposition at all about this. We already know that Varys and Ill are working toward putting Aegon on the throne. We already get explanation from LF about what leaving Cersei in charge to screw things up accomplishes. We know from Cersei's POVs that Kevan is shoring up Tommen's rule, and that everything's looking peaceful moving forward. We already know that Varys is playing the chaos and division card to get Aegon in power. We already know that Aegon was raised on the polebot with private education and humble lifestyle. We already know that this Aegon has landed, and that emerging in a power vacuum is a good strategy for him to consolidate power.

We don't need Varys to say a single word here in order to understand why he kills Kevan. There is nothing Varys gives us in this speech that we do not already know. It's redundant and worthless, unless someone is there.

[Mladen]

I think that we are clinging to the idea of "breaking the fourth wall" too much (initially, me too) just because of the position of this chapter. It's the epilogue of the last book, and as such, there is nothing after it. This is particularly problematic given that we do know that Arya went to Ned and informed him about the talk she overheard, Sansa did acknowledge the fact Lysa killed Jon Arryn in one of her chapters in AFFC. And bumps is right about this. If we don't know any case of "breaking the fourth wall", we have to assume that this wasn't one too.

Now, who is the listener? I do believe that literal listener are Varys' little birds. Given how Wex informed Manderly about everything he needed to know, it isn't far-fetched that the knowledge Varys' birds have could be informing someone else, with or without Varys' knowledge, and my money would be that, in that case, he would know who listens. I do believe that HS makes a lot of sense (congrats to Harpy Incorporated on that idea). Not only that HS would be able to place one of his sparrows into Varys' birds (pun intended :)), but the entire conversation is basically "selling the bride" as OP pointed out. I also wouldn't dismiss Martells as the listener, most specifically, Doran. The talk about Aegon, weakness of current system, septa and closeness to Faith to ensure the support of believers, all of this may be intended for Doran to hear and make conclusion that his nephew is home and that he should support him.

[Mithras]

Another reason to think that the speech of Varys was actually intended for a third party (not the readers) is that Varys is still keeping his mask that we are used to. He says that he is sorry, claiming that he is doing this for the good of the realm etc. All that gentle, sad, unhappy yet dutiful tone is very familiar.

Thus, he is acting like the usual Varys here, not the cold blooded killer he is. Why, he means to sell himself and his intentions to a third party.

I think the message is intended for Doran.

[zaphodbrx]

I always thought that this was Martin's way of subverting expectations - instead of a villian explaining all of his secret plans to the hero before killing him ( or rather failing to do so ), we have a villain kill the hero first and then blabber about the secret evil plans all you like. That works.

I find the notion that there was someone else in the room not believable in the least. There were only 'little birds' in the room, who are already fully controlled by Varys anyway.