Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Does that make it right? Do you forsake the high ground for the whims and wills of the mob? I honestly have no idea. In America, we'd vote on it, all the citizens and let the vote stand (ok, idealistically that's what we'd do...). This isn't a democracy in Meereen. The King wants one thing; the Queen wants another. But Dany is supposed to be the conqueror, and she's washing her hands of something she feels very strongly about. She's giving up her moral convictions, which is what the GG/Hizzy are probably after for the short term (long term is either her death or slavery coming back)

This is a good point you raise, and is actually one of the problems why an area like slaver's bay isn't ready for democracy. Many of the people there are morally bankrupt (Both slavers and former slaves)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think it makes her an hypocrite. Opening the pits would be a loose equivalent to José de San Martin abolishing slavery for those born after he declared independence in Peru, but those born before would remain as slaves. He didn't release those who were brought to the country as slaves either because they weren't citizens here. He pleased the rich people by allowing them to keep their slaves while at the same time, he offered those slaves a chance and a future for their children. Slavery was completely abolished 30 years later by other guy. Sometimes, you can completely win and you need to make compromises you don't like.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think it makes her an hypocrite. Opening the pits would be a loose equivalent to José de San Martin abolishing slavery for those born after he declared independence in Peru, but those born before would remain as slaves. He didn't release those who were brought to the country as slaves either because they weren't citizens here. He pleased the rich people by allowing them to keep their slaves while at the same time, he offered those slaves a chance and a future for their children. Slavery was completely abolished 30 years later by other guy. Sometimes, you can completely win and you need to make compromises you don't like.

Sure but where's the line? She's marrying Hizzy in Ghis tradition with absolutely no Westerosi traditions added in. She'll stop fighting the opening of the pits. What's next? Some slavery? All slavery returns? How long until everything is undone utterly in the name of so-called compromise. Dany, so far as I can tell, isn't getting much out of this deal. The terrorists will stop but it's actually a reward: "your terrorism worked! good job!"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sure but where's the line? She's marrying Hizzy in Ghis tradition with absolutely no Westerosi traditions added in. She'll stop fighting the opening of the pits. What's next? Some slavery? All slavery returns? How long until everything is undone utterly in the name of so-called compromise. Dany, so far as I can tell, isn't getting much out of this deal. The terrorists will stop but it's actually a reward: "your terrorism worked! good job!"

The problem with Dany is that she had no plan except going and free everybody. It sounds good in paper but not in execution.

she could have done what I posted above, for instance. That everybody who is under 8 years old or born after her arrival is already free and has rights, and the slaves remains slaves for a number of years until slavery will cease completely. She also needed to ensure and sustain the economy so the slaves would get jobs and a fair salary that will help them and their free children, and not make them dependant on masters any more. Unfortunately, all of those things take time and she didn't have that one. I'm talking of at least one decade. Maybe even the infamous five years GRRM talked about.

I agree that she was dealing with terrorists and she gave up to their demands too easily by marrying Hizdar. I don't think he's a bad person but he's interests are those of the other slavers, not Dany and the slaves. Even if he indeed is as compassionate and kind as his show counterpart, she's not playing on Dany's side, sadly (I said sadly because I kinda like him). Perhaps she should have done what Aegon I did with Harren the Black, and roast all of the slavers and start all over, but then, we would have people calling her genocide.

[BearQueen87]

The problem with Dany is that she had no plan except going and free everybody. It sounds good in paper but not in execution.

she could have done what I posted above, for instance. That everybody who is under 8 years old or born after her arrival is already free and has rights, and the slaves remains slaves for a number of years until slavery will cease completely. She also needed to ensure and sustain the economy so the slaves would get jobs and a fair salary that will help them and their free children, and not make them dependant on masters any more. Unfortunately, all of those things take time and she didn't have that one. I'm talking of at least one decade. Maybe even the infamous five years GRRM talked about.

I agree that what you're suggesting is a real solution. And the fact that it wasn't attempted or even so far as we know suggested and/or debated shows her youth, her inexperience, her lack of a proper "game" education, and her lack of proper councilors. She never intended to stay in Meereen; she wanted to rescue the slaves and go. But she ended up staying and now she's trying her best without a plan or education and everything I already listed. The problem, now, however is that it looks like it's too late to even try any of these ideas that should have been tried in the first place. So now she either compromises to the point where she ends up giving everyone what they wanted and loosing what she set out to do, or she's going to have to go to alternative: fire and blood. One of her biggest issues, and something we've talked about here a bit lately, is her reluctance to see fighting--actual violent fighting--as noble and honorable and valiant. It's that black and white world view that creeps back up with her. She used violence in Astapor and I'd consider freeing the city to be noble and honorable, but it wasn't without bloodshed (and dragon fire!). But she's so closed off in Meereen, so full of guilt over the little girl who died supposedly by Drogon, that she's forgetting the lessons she learned in Astapor.

I agree that she was dealing with terrorists and she gave up to their demands too easily by marrying Hizdar. I don't think he's a bad person but he's interests are those of the other slavers, not Dany and the slaves. Even if he indeed is as compassionate and kind as his show counterpart, she's not playing on Dany's side, sadly (I said sadly because I kinda like him). Perhaps she should have done what Aegon I did with Harren the Black, and roast all of the slavers and start all over, but then, we would have people calling her genocide.

Yeah, I think Hizdahr has been playing her false from the start. He's obviously in deep with the Harpy (GG). He's out for his own self interests which align with the former slaver patriarchy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, I think Hizdahr has been playing her false from the start. He's obviously in deep with the Harpy (GG). He's out for his own self interests which align with the former slaver patriarchy.

I partially agree. I think he has, indeed, playing her from the start, but I don't think he' sin deep with the Harpy. I think he does like Dany until certain point and while he thinks she has the best of intentions and her ideas of freedom could work and he also wants peace, the Harpy has him by the balls for some reason we don't know about.

[BearQueen87]

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion VIII

“You are eager to behold the world’s deliverer?”

Summary

Aboard the Selasori Qhoran, Tyrion Lannister, Ser Jorah Mormont, Penny, and Moqorro, the Red Priest of Volantis, sail ever closer to Slaver’s Bay and Daenerys Targaryen. Life on the ship is tedious and dull and Tyrion comes to understand why each principle player is seeking the Dragon Queen. While looking into his fires, Moqorro tells Tyrion about the visions he sees including others who are also seeking Dany.

The Red Priest and the Lion

The High Priest of R’hllor, Benerro of Volantis, has set Moqorro on a journey to Slaver’s Bay with the intention of bringing the Lord of Light to Daenerys. Moqorro is described as “black as pitch, his hair as white as snow; the flames tattooed across his cheeks and brow yellow and orange.” I think this gives him an otherworldly quality. Moqorro seems to straddle a lot of lines: in a world of gray characters, he is both black and white. He is both slave and powerful religious leader. He is someone who follows and believes in the divine, yet the divine did not choose him.

Moqorro and his guardsman are all slaves. It’s important to remember that Dany has become a sign of hope for the enslaved. For the former slave owners, Dany is dangerous as she threatens to upset the slave trade further and their livelihood. But for those in chains and collars, she is their deliverer. This is particularly true in Volantis where the unrest is becoming palpable. Because of her survival in the fires of Drogo’s pyre, the “birth” of dragons, and her liberation of Slaver’s Bay, Benerro and Moqorro believe Dany to be Azor Ahai Reborn.

Tyrion finds himself curious about Moqorro and what the red priest sees in the flames: “Does he see days yet to come, as he claims?” When Tyrion finally asks what Moqorro sees, we get the following:

”Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reasons the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

The audience has already met every single one of these dragons.

Old and Young:

• Aemon Targaryen and Jon Snow
  • Because of the structure of Feast and Dance, we must remember that at the same time Tyrion is sailing toward Meereen, Old Maester Aemon is sailing with Samwell toward Old Town. Before Feast is over, Aemon comes to the realization that Dany is The Prince(ss) That Was Promised and desperately wishes he could join her to show Dany the way.
  • If you accept that R+L = J, then Jon Snow is the last living son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and therefore Dany’s own nephew. Dany is 9 months younger than Jon, which might classify her as the Young Dragon, but given the connection and relationship between Aemon (old dragon) and Jon, I believe this interpretation makes more sense.

True and False

• Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Targaryen (called Young Griff)
  • Dany is, obviously, the true dragon because there is no questioning her heritage. She is the daughter of the last Targaryen King, Aerys II, and his sister-wife, Rhaella. This might also set up a future conflict between fAegon and Dany in Dance of the Dragons 2.0.
  • Admittedly, we do not have confirmation that the blue-haired boy who called himself Young Griff is a fraud, but most of the evidence seems to point in this direction. Chances are, Young Griff is Illyrio Mopatis’ son by Serra. If Illyrio is, in fact, descendent from the Blackfyre line then his son is a false dragon. This false dragon also refers back to Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying in which she saw a murmur’s dragon amongst a cheering crowd.

Bright and Dark

• Potentially Illyrio Moptais and Lord Varys
  • One of them is a Blackfyre and one of them is a Brightflame. For more on this idea, I would recommend THIS thread.

And You [Tyrion]

• Tyrion has interacted with almost every single one of these dragons, however briefly. The only one he has yet to meet is Dany, but he is on his way. When Tyrion and Dany finally meet (hopefully in Winds of Winter) he will be able to tell her about the False, Bright, and Dark Dragons. Tyrion may not know that Aemon is Aemon Targaryen and he certainly does not know that Jon is Rhaegar’s son.
• 
  

This is not the first time Tyrion Lannister has been referred to as a small man with a big shadow. From Jon’s first POV in A Game of Thrones

”Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.” And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment, Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

And from Tyrion’s own POV in A Clash of Kings

”So power is a murmmer’s trick?”

“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

What are we to make of this? I believe that Tyrion Lannister will be absolutely vital to Dany taking Westeros from fAegon, possibly as the Hand to the Queen. Also he will be instrumental in the War for the Dawn. I think he may even be one of the three dragon heads. The fact that Moqorro sees him snarling gives him a dangerous animal type quality, as if he were a metaphorical dragon. Standing in the midst of all these dragons, he will shape what is to come. He served as advisor to the False Dragon (even if it was to lead him astray) and I believe Tyrion will be a true councilor for both the true and young dragon in the future.

Apart from various dragons, Moqorro sees another shadow that is coming for Dany. This one is not so pleasant:

“Have you seen these others in your fires?” he [Tyrion] asked, warily.

“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”

This is an obvious reference to Euron “Crow’s Eye” Greyjoy, a twisted and horrifying man who has sent his younger brother, Victarion, on a mission to bring Dany and her dragons to him so that he might take Westeros for the Iron Born (and himself). Victarion is carrying a horn that Euron believes will bring the dragons to heel. The ten long arms is a reference to the Greyjoy sigil of a kraken. The one black eye is probably a reference to the patch he wears over his left eye.

The Dragon Queen and the Lion

In this chapter we are treated to Tyrion’s own internal conflict concerning how Daenerys will receive him. When Moqorro asks if he is eager to behold the world’s deliverer, Tyrion thinks: “Yes and no. The world’s deliverer may snick off my head or give me to her dragons as a savory.” Later when Tyrion and Penny are discussing Penny’s future in Meereen, Tyrion attempts to assuage the dwarf’s fears by presenting Dany in a positive light

”Daenerys has a kind heart and a generous nature.” It was what she needed to hear. “She will find a place for you at her court, I don’t doubt. A safe place, beyond my sister’s reach.”

However, Tyrion is less than sure where his own neck is concerned

Penny turned back to him. “And you will be there too.”

Unless Daenerys decides she needs some Lannister blood to pay for the Targaryen blood my brother shed. “I will.”

Despite having a keen insight into Dany (as evidenced by his speech to Young Griff in Tyrion VI), Tyrion does not know how Dany will receive him. His Lannister blood is not going to make her happy and he knows it. He has classified Dany both positively and negatively. On the positive side he has called her kind, generous, and a protector. But on the negative side, he knows she might be cruel and vengeful. As he draws closer to Dany, Tyrion begins to recognize that this is a coin toss. He really has no assurances that Dany would accept him (and his hate) into her camp. But if he wants Casterly Rock and revenge on Cersei this is his best course.

The Bear and the Lion

Ser Jorah and Tyrion do not get along. Jorah has taken the chains off Tyrion so he is free to move about the ship, but they have conflicting personalities. Tyrion describes Jorah:

Twice exiled, and small wonder, Tyrion thought. I’d exile him too if I could. The man is cold, brooding, sullen, deaf to humor. And those are his good points.

Tyrion, by contrast, is normally full of witticisms, humor, and japes. However, these two might be more alike that they realize. Jorah hides his insecurities concerning how Dany will react to his return behind his sullen and brooding nature; Tyrion hides behind jokes and sarcasm, but both of them fear what will become of them when the come face to face with Dany.

Before he is literally chained, Jorah acts like a caged animal. He is restless and on edge. He spends “most of his waking hours pacing the forecastle or leaning on the rail, gazing out to sea.” Tyrion’s observations into people help him understand why Jorah is this way:

Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen.

Because we never get a Jorah POV, we have to understand him through the eyes of others. Tyrion, thankfully, is somewhat of an expert at assessing people. Jorah, obviously, is in love with Dany. He wants to return to Meereen to try and find forgiveness and redemption. Tyrion likens Jorah’s feelings to his [Tyrion] own ill-fated relationship with Tysha, his wife. Tyrion and Tysha were in love, but Tywin and Jaime came between them in a gross act of betrayal. Similarly, Jorah’s love for Dany (and Dany’s love for Jorah, however you want to personally define that love) is true, but an act of betrayal has come between them. Just as Tyrion is longing to find Tysha and ask forgiveness, Jorah wants forgiveness from Dany.

I believe that Tyrion knows that Jorah will be an ally. Whatever has happened between Jorah and Dany, the knight still knows the Queen better than anyone. He was there from the start, from wedding to fire to Qarth to Slaver’s Bay. Where Jorah is personally failing is that he still believes he can offer up excuses to Dany instead of admitting his own faults. If he presents Tyrion to Dany, all will be forgiven, but that’s somewhat backwards logic because she is just as likely to be angry that he brought a “dog” into her camp. What Dany wants from Jorah is to hear that he’s sorry and that he was wrong. Jorah’s own journey back to Dany cannot be one of the heroic knight come to rescue his lady fair, but of a humble man who admits to his errors to the woman he has wronged. One more note here, but I think Tyrion recognizes that Jorah loves Dany as both queen (looking for his silver queen) and a woman (looking for Daenerys), something we know Dany is struggling with in Meereen.

Potential Foreshadowing

Moqorro explains to Tyrion that the name Selasori Qhoran translates to The Fragrant Steward. Previously, Quaithe came to Dany in Meereen and warned her about the perfumed seneschal. This bit of prophecy might refer to the ship or someone on aboard, though this is problematic as both Moqorro and Tyrion are included in Quaithe’s prophecy apart from the perfumed seneschal. It could be referring to Jorah since he is also on board, but given Quaithe’s dire prediction this seems unlikely. In the prophecy, the men listed are coming for her dragons or for their own political gain, but Jorah stands alone as someone who desires neither a real dragon nor political gain. Because of this, the name “The Fragrant Steward” is probably a red herring.

We get our first “glimpse” of the smoking ruins of Valyria in this chapter. Since A Game of Thrones, the empire of Valyria has always been in the background somehow: The Doom visited it, magic went out of the world afterwards, myth and legend about the place sprung up, the Targaryens escaped from there. Valyria fits very neatly with the LOST WORLD trope stemming from the story of Atlantis.

It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted

Even Moqorro warns Tyrion against looking too long at the fires of Valyria for “those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

I believe that we will see Valyria in a future book, in particular when Dany begins her march westward toward Westeros, the map Xaro gave her in hand. On dragon back, protected by whatever magic she posses herself, she might visit the city of her ancestors and even find something among the ruins to aid her in conquest. The next sentence has a bit of a spoiler for Winds, so I’ll block it.

GRRM has said that in WOW, Dany will embrace her houses’ words and will be coming home. Many assume that to mean Westeros, and it’s likely that is part of it, but before the Doom, the Dragon Lords lived in Valyria. It is also “home” even if it is one that is further back in Targaryen history

LINK

Conclusion

This chapter serves as a transition for Tyrion along his very long journey. He has gone from false dragon and is on his way to the true dragon, but in between there is a rather tedious (in his words) trip in which he tries to understand not only Dany better, but also himself. His relationship, or budding friendship, with Penny helps keep him grounded as the two grow closer. This chapter also helps show us how various characters view Daenerys. To the slaves, Dany is a mythic messianic deliverer, as evidenced by Moqorro. She is also a woman who is loved and a personal redeemer, as seen through Jorah’s eyes. And for Tyrion, Dany is a coin toss, either they can help each other, or she’ll feed him to a dragon.

[Kyoshi]

Awesome, new chapter! Off to read. Thanks, BearQueen87! :cheers:

[MoIaF]

New Thread

We've exceeded out 400 post and it's time for a new thread.

Fresh off the press:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115603-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-part-v-adwd/