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Dany will NOT fight the Others


Mithras

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Just a general reply to several posts;



Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.



Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.


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From a previous post of mine:

*Dany IX AGOT:

"And Daenerys Targaryen flew. Wake the dragon The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings."

Bran III AGOT:

"Death reached for him, screaming. Bran spread his arms and flew. Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him."

Both Bran and Dany experience these dreams after two highly traumatic events in their lives, for Bran it was being tossed from a roof and for Dany is while experiencing her the miscarriage of Rhaego. Clearly these two events that lead to these dreams have triggered something in both Bran and Dany.

In these dreams both Bran and Dany are running from an icy enemy, an enemy, which terrifies both of them.

As they feel this icy enemy reach them, they both gain the ability to fly. As they fly they are able to distance themselves from this enemy. As the three eyed crow tells Bran in his dream "fly or die".

The almost identical imagery of these two dreams show us that these two characters are persecuted by the same enemy and they BOTH choose to flee this enemy by flying. Flying thus becomes an integral part of both Bran and Dany arcs. As the series continues GRRM continues to draw parallels between these two characters.

Now, Dany has this dream* in AGOT, so GRRM has established for us that Dany perceives through her dreams that her enemy has something to do with ice.

Now that this has been establish we see in the later dream the evolution of this enemy.

"That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent."

In her first dream she only recognizes the ice as a substance that is chasing her, she cannot tell what it is. In the second dream this "substance" has been transformed into an army, an army armored in ice. Her dragons who weren't born when she had her first dream, are now alive and growing. She now knows that she can use her dragons to defeat this enemy made of ice. She conflates this enemy made of ice with the Usurpers because that is the only enemy she thinks she has in Westeros.

Rhaegar failed to defeat HIS enemy, in her dream Dany defeats HER enemy. In fact you are making the same mistake Dany makes, you are making the assumption that the enemy Dany is fighting is the Usupers (and that is what she believe) when in fact it is the Others.

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The next morning she woke stiff and sore and aching, with ants crawling on her arms and legs and face. When she realized what they were, she kicked aside the stalks of dry brown grass that had served as her bed and blanket and struggled to her feet. She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed. Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many …

It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros. The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he’d built it himself.

This passage clearly shows that Dany will turn her back to the Wall and sleep through the night until the Others/wights coming from the other side of the Wall bite her ass.

It is not a dream. A real event with a symbolic interpretation. GRRM specifically mentioned the Wall and the anthill on the other side of the Wall where the ants were coming to this side and biting humans. There is no nother explanation.

Dany is not AAR. She does not have any investment in the war against the Others. It has been 5 books already and she does not know anything about them. She will be occupied with the Second Dance.

In short, it is not happening.

Oh, before Dany fans swarm the thread and bring the only thing they can use to “prove” that Dany will fight the Others, let me give that myself.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.

This is the ONLY piece of “evidence” that can be brought up when arguing that Dany will fight the Others. And it is only when you take this dream at face value. Dreams and prophecies are seldom literal and they might have multiple interpretations. Though Dany fans love to take everything at face value because Dany fulfilled everything about the AAR prophecy at face value.

The men of the winterlands are made of iron and ice, and even my boldest knights fear to face them.”

A very plausible explanation of Dany’s dream is that Usurper’s host armored in ice is Stannis with the Northmen (described metaphorically as made of ice) following him.

In addition, “melting away” before the dragons is exactly what the Dornish did to defeat Rhaenys. I really don’t see why this dream represents a victory instead of defeat. In the real setting of the dream, Rhaegar was killed by the Usurper.

Another important aspect of this dream is that it is not necessarily a normal prophetic dragon dream. Quaithe is using a glass candle and it is possible to send visions to a person by using glass candles. Dany woke up from this dream in the middle of the night and Quaithe appeared immediately after and told her this:

“Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

If anything, that dream should be related to what Quaithe said afterwards. Rhaegar rode North to the Trident to his death. Quaithe started by warning Dany not to do the same.

I agree, Dany will not be engaged against the others, they will be most likely defeated by Bran and the wildings/northmen. I suspect she will fight them after they dispatch the others. If Jon is ok, he will fight the others too than fight Dany.

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@Paper Waver--I started my question to you in a different thread, but I think it makes more sense to continue here in your OP. What I don't understand about your position is how you think Dany can go to the wall (for whatever purpose) and not get pulled into the fight against the Others? Do you think the Others will already be defeated before she gets there? Do you think she dies in battle at the wall before the Others get past the wall? I understand that you think she goes for another purpose, but once there, isn't it logical that she would get pulled into the fight with the Other--would realize that they are the real threat?

Having read some of Paper Waver's posts in other threads, I think I can answer you. And you can correct me if I'm wrong OP: she gets pregnant with Jon's baby and dies in childbirth. I think that's why she goes to the wall.

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I think Sam understands the threat pretty well.

And Mel. And Stannis. And Tormund. And Davos. And the Queensmen. And the Wildlings. And Bran. And Bloodraven. Even Ghost and Summer, and they're not even human.

There are many people who understand the threat. Jon can't even be said to be the first. Mance was digging for the Horn of Joramun as early as Jon first arriving at the Wall.

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Just a general reply to several posts;

Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

oh kill me now.

Mance, Benjen, Sam and Bran strike me as individuals with some kind of knowledge of the "true threat" as well. Interestingly enough, Jon announced plans to go ride out to the Boltons as well, so I guess this means he thinks there's just grumkins behind the Wall too.

I really don't get this. I mean, I get you have anxiety about how well Dany fits as Azor Ahai, and want your boy Jon to be the transcendent, universal hero of the story. So you go out of your way to argue that Dany won't have anything to do with the Long Night, and try prove that Jon is Azor Ahai. But you don't take a measured look at what "Azor Ahai" even means, acknowledge that Azor Ahai is bad news, or that there might be something more sophisticated than ice/fire duality going on here.

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Just a general reply to several posts;

Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

and if the Wall falls? And she gets THAT news? Or if Tyrion and her other advisers say "you must go North"

You're assuming that because others act like X then Dany will act like X.

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Just a general reply to several posts;

Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

Jon tried to leave the Wall to fight the Boltons too soooooooo...

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Jon tried to leave the Wall to fight the Boltons too soooooooo...

I know but Jon in essence knows that he cannot properly fight the others and have enemies at his back who are threatening the wall so he is trying to nip the threat to his back in the bud. Stannis came to the North for selfish reasons not to serve but to take what he could and gain from it.

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How in heaven's name is this foreshadowing that she will turn her back on the Others problem? You seem to have caught the HotU parallel to the dwarves feasting on the woman, yet you come to this conclusion? Why are you spinning this as indication she won't leave the political fight to deal with winter instead of simply seeing it as a warning for Dany that there's something beyond the Wall demanding attention?

Because

Stannis is in the North and he will not welcome Dany to North as long as he lives.

fAegon is in the South and Dany will not suffer him strengthen his position and take seat at KL.

Dany is SURPRISED that so many ants came and did so much damage. That does not look like a person who will be aware of the real danger.

I happen to agree that Dany is probably not going to be the person to deal with the Others, or do so in a way that neutralizes them. But my reasons for this have more to do with skepticism about the efficacy of a dragon against them, as well as my belief that there's something more sophisticated behind their magic that demands a different countermeasure (for example, can a skinchanger cause interference so that the Others are unable to raise more dead). "Burning shit" works for the wights, but Others aren't wights, and I'm not remotely convinced that "burning shit" is the solution.

Not to mention, in a much broader sense, I do not believe for a second that fire should be vanquishing ice. They're pretty much exactly the same save for temperature.

I agree with this. A magic sword or a dragon should not win the war. The key point is the leadership.

I've seen more than enough of your Azor Ahai posts to understand that you see "Azor Ahai" as a synonym for "one true hero and absolute good guy." I think it might be time to re-evaluate this. Please look at the characters who think AA is a good guy-- they are invariably fire nazis.

To add, the only character who has connected the Others and Long Night to AA is Mel. Mel, ffs. That does not mean that the original AA defeated the Long Night or any such thing. It means that this is how Mel sees it. The other Reds have political agendas, and Benerro speaks to a more total victory of eternal light and life in his little speech. He thinks that Dany's coming will end death and bring an endless summer. That's not the same thing as overcoming the Others. No, it's basically advocating for a hotter versions of what the Others do.

That does not necessarily mean that their religion persisted for thousands of years without corruption. In fact, it is quite the opposite. They mistake Satan for God and worship demons without knowing that. This can be said for certain real world religions too.

In addition, AA does not have to be LIKE THEY SAID. There might be lots of fabrications about AA. I think the real hero was the Last Hero but in Essos, his tales are twisted. An AA as the red religion claims did not live but the real figure behind the AA lived.

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Of course Dany is surprised by the ants - the Others are probably going to be well into the north before anyone truly takes them seriously. But that doesn't mean she won't fight them, just that they'll initially overwhelm the continent... which makes the most narrative sense, anyway - they need to be a serious threat, they can't just be defeated straight away at the Wall.





I know but Jon in essence knows that he cannot properly fight the others and have enemies at his back who are threatening the wall so he is trying to nip the threat to his back in the bud. Stannis came to the North for selfish reasons not to serve but to take what he could and gain from it.





I could argue that Stannis had the same reasons for marching south.


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oh kill me now.

Mance, Benjen, Sam and Bran strike me as individuals with some kind of knowledge of the "true threat" as well. Interestingly enough, Jon announced plans to go ride out to the Boltons as well, so I guess this means he thinks there's just grumkins behind the Wall too.

I really don't get this. I mean, I get you have anxiety about how well Dany fits as Azor Ahai, and want your boy Jon to be the transcendent, universal hero of the story. So you go out of your way to argue that Dany won't have anything to do with the Long Night, and try prove that Jon is Azor Ahai.

BB said it well enough, no need to keep going with this thread.

You go out of your way to bend the novels to give Jon alone all the glory, and leave Dany tripping over Drogons tail like an idiot in KL. It does not fit with the first 5 books and it is that simple.

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oh kill me now.



Mance, Benjen, Sam and Bran strike me as individuals with some kind of knowledge of the "true threat" as well. Interestingly enough, Jon announced plans to go ride out to the Boltons as well, so I guess this means he thinks there's just grumkins behind the Wall too.



I really don't get this. I mean, I get you have anxiety about how well Dany fits as Azor Ahai, and want your boy Jon to be the transcendent, universal hero of the story. So you go out of your way to argue that Dany won't have anything to do with the Long Night, and try prove that Jon is Azor Ahai. But you don't take a measured look at what "Azor Ahai" even means, acknowledge that Azor Ahai is bad news, or that there might be something more sophisticated than ice/fire duality going on here.





I am not sure about Mance. He has his political agenda.



For the record, I believe Jon is the Lightbringer.



And I think AA is a twisted version of the Last Hero. AAR OTOH will be heroes “using” Jon by making him functional in the war against the Others.



I think you are exaggerating the evil agenda of the Red Religion high-clergy. The HS is a douche but we have Septon Meribald and Elder Brother at the other side. I already wrote why I think the Red Religion is highly twisted.


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I am not sure about Mance. He has his political agenda.

Jon going to WF is partially political agenda. Stannis coming to Wall is political agenda too. Political agenda doesn't exclude the understanding of the threat Others present.

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Jon going to WF is partially political agenda. Stannis coming to Wall is political agenda too. Political agenda doesn't exclude the understanding of the threat Others present.

But it can pose danger to the mission. It does. I am not sure that Mance’s plans (whatever they are) will be good for Jon.

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