Dany will NOT fight the Others

[Mithras]

Too much "Kill the boy and let the man be born" can lead you to the same dangerous place as this. Do you say the same for Jon?

Yes.

[butterbumps!]

No it doesnt. You are jumping to very far fetched conclusions. I was not stating a canon literary rule for all use of the word 'wall'. I was simply saying that if he was trying to use symbolic foreshadowing, in this instance, I doubt he would spell it out so clearly is all. Of course this is all IMHO.

/conversation

No, I'm not jumping to farfetched conclusions. I just showed you what you'd been arguing, that it was 2 incompatible positions, and pointed out where the logic circled back to because it looked like you might not have realized.

I agree that every time Martin mentions all wall, it does not connect to back to THE Wall. But, on rare occasions, he does seem to want us to make this connection, and does so by making the connection very explicit. For example, Tyrion's observations of Sansa's wall of courtesy that's like THE Wall. Or this particular scene.

That you believe having a literal connection to the Wall made in-story precludes it from being a connection to the Wall is a little bit baffling to me. It's what separates these rare occasions from the 10k other "wall" references we get, and would ostensibly be our "signal" to take note that these rare occasions are invoking a connection to THE Wall.

Thats an interesting thing to look into. I've always been lured by the idea that the first Valyrian dragonrider happened in a similar way Dany did it, as in there was a first "mother of dragons" before Dany. .And it could very well be true that Nissa Nissa was the more important one, and the stabbing of the sword just metaphorically meant "sex" and lightbringer was a dragon from Nissa Nissa as the mother. It would make very much sense why the Faceless men are against "birth of death" and maybe why they could be linked to the downfall of Valyria.

Yea, I mean, I absolutely favor this interpretation. I mean, Dany even has the 3 "tempering" attempts down (water the night of the Dosh Khaleen, prophesy and Vis is out of succession, then the night of the hrakkhar, when Drogo returns after the poisoning attempt with the lion, vowing to get her the throne, then an image of Rhaego's heart bursting during the tent scene), all of which moved her into position to emerge as "mother of dragons."

[The Bedding]

Just a general reply to several posts;

Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

A woman that has dragons and rides one. A woman that walked through fire to hatch dragon eggs. A woman that experienced the Magic of MMD. A woman that experienced the HOTU. It would be so hilarious if she displayed a non believing Cersei type attitude about the Others beyond the wall after all she's seen and been through. She'd immediately become just another moron if that happens.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Yes.

Fair enough.

So if you believe as you say that Jon and Dany are both in a dangerous place because of their individual beliefs of what they must do or accomplish, what makes it immediately follow to you that in the aftermath, Jon would overcome and do his part, but Dany would fail to do hers?

I'm genuinely curious.

[Mladen]

I did not see anyone posting those proofs except butterbumps.

I agree. Not even opening post contains anything that would resemble an actual proof.

And even bumps posted her opinions supported with analyses she did on the subject. My opinion is that the logistics of two installments doesn't allow that two confrontations - Dance and War for Dawn. I also brlieve tht Martin will be doing a great irony, which happened from time to time in even our own history, with pretenders fighting for IT and the real heir fighting different battle as well pergaps the most powerful weapon against armies of Others will be preoccupied somewhere else.

[Mithras]

Fair enough.

So if you believe as you say that Jon and Dany are both in a dangerous place because of their individual beliefs of what they must do or accomplish, what makes it immediately follow to you that in the aftermath, Jon would overcome and do his part, but Dany would fail to do hers?

I'm genuinely curious.

Because Jon has one of the best moral compasses in the series thanks to Ned. He also shows himself to be flexible and pragmatic enough to get things done.

Dany did not have that chance to be raised by Ned.

[BearQueen87]

Because Jon has one of the best moral compasses in the series thanks to Ned. He also shows himself to be flexible and pragmatic enough to get things done.

Dany did not have that chance to be raised by Ned.

So anyone not raised by Ned has a dubious moral compass? Seems stretchy seeing that people like Davos and Sam were not and yet we'd consider them morally upright people.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Because Jon has one of the best moral compasses in the series thanks to Ned. He also shows himself to be flexible and pragmatic enough to get things done.

Dany did not have that chance to be raised by Ned.

Jon has had his fair share of moral failures. I love the guy, and don't disagree that overall he's got a good moral compass- but he's attacked a superior officer with a knife for slighting him, attempted desertion, and killed Qhorin Halfhand and following his order despite thinking it was dishonorable, ect.

Dany didn't have her morals passed to her by a parent, certainly. Yet she shows compassion and moral certainty that is almost fanatical if sometimes horribly misguided. She's developing what Jon was given from the beginning. I don't even care for Dany all that much, but I think it's a stretch that the 'champion of the common people' morality she's developed through the course of the book would disappear in Westeros.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Not sure if she will fight them, but I can see her letting the Starks/Jon fight the WW's; because after all they are the Usurpers dogs or descendants of. She could pull off the strategy of allowing her enemies to fight, weakening each other. If that is the case (not sure that is it), she would be sorely mistaken.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I'm not so sure. Dispatching of a few ants isn't quite the same as dealing with their source.

This could be true but once again we don't know if the others are just ice humans as it were. The ant hill doesn't do them justice. They look like they are on our level in intelligent thought

[JonisHenryTudor]

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:

Not only do we have the dream about fighting an army covered in ice, we have the vision of the blue rose in the wall of ice (i.e.she will go to the Wall and meet Jon) and we have the author saying the major characters will all come to the same place towards the end of the story.

Show spoiler

Also the HOTU scene where she goes beyond on the Wall. Love to hear what she would be doing beyond the Wall other than fighting the Others?

An army covered in Ice...well technically since it has been snowing the entire north is covered in ice, including Stannis' army. Yes there is a blue rose in the wall. But that is Lyanna's symbol and Jon, and it could just be a vision given to Dany to let her know that someone important is there. I am not arguing that she will not go there. Beyond the wall...maybe she is the Night Queen. I would find it odd if she did not go there.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

If Dany just "cares" about the IT then why did she take a risk in Astapor to liberate slaves and why did she stay in Meereen. The text is arguing against all the claims you are making.

[BearQueen87]

If Dany just "cares" about the IT then why did she take a risk in Astapor to liberate slaves and why did she stay in Meereen. The text is arguing against all the claims you are making.

Even when some of her advisers are telling her to leave Slaver's Bay and sail for Westeros. Before taking Meereen, Jorah tells her to move on, not to take it. Xaro offers her 13 ships and Selmy tells Dany to go home with these ships because her real fight is there. But no, every time : "I will not leave my people." or "I will not allow them to stay enslaved" You can find fault with not listening to them, sure, but you cannot claim that she only cares about the IT when she flat out tells Selmy, "if they love me that much, they will wait for mer"

[JonisHenryTudor]

There seems to be a lot of cherry picking when it comes to prophesies, dreams, and visions. On one hand, this is clearly foreshadowing, and on another this just nothing at all.

Having said that, the reality is, nobody has WoW or DoS in their hands. There are a load of assumptions that Dany will remain a "good" character, or Jon for that matter. For all we know, it may not even go that way at all. I am starting to think that some are allowing their bias towards characters to cloud their judgement of the text. We are not the authors, Martin is, and the ending he pictured is probably not going to be the one we think will happen.

I do buy the clues Martin has left behind, but I am highly skeptical when people start only accepting the prophesies that support their character and discarding those that do not. As a Christian, I see this within Christianity all the time and it leads to blind fanaticism.

Rant off :cheers:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Even when some of her advisers are telling her to leave Slaver's Bay and sail for Westeros. Before taking Meereen, Jorah tells her to move on, not to take it. Xaro offers her 13 ships and Selmy tells Dany to go home with these ships because her real fight is there. But no, every time : "I will not leave my people." or "I will not allow them to stay enslaved" You can find fault with not listening to them, sure, but you cannot claim that she only cares about the IT when she flat out tells Selmy, "if they love me that much, they will wait for mer"

Agreed, anyone that thinks Dany will still go after the throne if she finds out about a zombie apocalypse is not paying attention to her arc.

[bdub32689]

This is my take on the ants biting dany. Looked up a little info on Queen ants and most give out a chemical odor that attracts worker ants to them. So this chemical would be the birth of the dragons and the magic they encompass. It has already been predicted that the dragons will attract people from all over.

As we know many have sought or are on their way to seek audience with the queen. Many who have tried to take advantage of her she was able to squash pretty easily. What surprises her is that their home was on the other side of this wall yet so many made the trip over it even though she sees the wall as daunting obstacle for them to over come. Just as many from westeros have taken long/ risky paths to get to her. I don't think dany realizes or fully understands the power of this scent "magic" that she gives off or the scope of events it has put in motion.

The following is speculation

Queen ants are only as good as their fertility and sometimes are attacked by the worker ants to see if they have the strength to survive. It takes many ants several days of biting/ acid spraying a queen for her to die or she dies of thirst during the attack. While I am no ant expert I found it interesting considering danys situation. I also read sometimes the queen will take care of herself and stop producing for the colony for a time as sort of a population control if there are not enough resources to go around. While this all might just be coincidental I wouldn't put it past GRRM to know or research ant social structure.

I would say the ant excerpt simply mirrors dany at this time in her life. Trying to balance caring for her followers that are growing while looking out for herself as well.

[No Song so Sweet]

Why would Dany even go to the Wall? Have there been ANY hints for that? If she wants the throne, why would she go there? And if she is, say, in King's Landing or fighting in the Westerlands and she hears that the wall is breached, would she care? would she even really know what is happening and what are the others?

Dany doesn't fit with AAR except for the dragons and the rebirth amidst smoke and salt (which is shared with pretty much all POV and some non-POV). Everything else has assumptions (i.e. assumption that prince also means princess because people have it wrong for hundreds of years, assumption that lightbringer is not a sword, assumption that the song of ice and fire is hers for some reason, assumption that she will be a warrior in the fight of the others OR if all that is not true, then assumption that AAR is something else than it said so it needs assumptions that certain parts of the prophecy are true and other are false).

[BearQueen87]

Why would Dany even go to the Wall? Have there been ANY hints for that? If she wants the throne, why would she go there? And if she is, say, in King's Landing or fighting in the Westerlands and she hears that the wall is breached, would she care? would she even really know what is happening and what are the others?

1) She did have a dream about being Rhaegar on the back of a dragon, fighting against army in ice. Perhaps ambiguous but it is in text

2) You're falling into the same trap as the OP, that Dany simply care for nothing except the IT, which is false in light of her arc in ADWD inw which she is given numerous opportunities to leave Slaver's Bay, is even advised to do so, and refuses because it would mean that "her people" would be put back into slavery. She flat out tells Selmy that if Westeros loves her so dearly that they will wait for her to come home. In short, Dany's mentality is caring for the common people, the slaves, the children. Turning her back on them in Westeros would be OOC

Alternatively, if you believe that Dany will become more ruthless and cold once she lands in Westeros, then her precious IT is in danger by the White Walkers. She will fight them if only to protect her claim to the throne.

3) Viserys told her about the Wall so he probably told her the legends of the Wall as well. She also has books of songs and history of Westeros that probably mention the legendary figures like the Last Hero and Symon Star-Eyes

Dany doesn't fit with AAR except for the dragons and the rebirth amidst smoke and salt (which is shared with pretty much all POV and some non-POV)

That's really hard to say given that we do not know what AAR is supposed to DO. And in the legends we have about AAR from various people, no where does it say that AAR fights the Others. That's the Last Hero. Now they are probably one and the same, but the text so far hasn't confirmed that. So whether she's AAR or not doesn't mean anything at the moment since AAR's status vis a vis the Others is nonexistent.

[Disputatious]

Whoah... For a second I thought you consider this as serious piece of foreshadowing...

Once again, the OP may have a good conclusion but for all the bad reasons. Rejecting far more powerful piece of foreshadowing with ANTS? Like, seriously? Well, as I said, the conclusion might be valid, but we should take the narrative into consideration, not solely use dubious and quite frankly meaningless "pieces of foreshadowing" colored with bias opinion.

95% of all cases of foreshadowing aren't.

[Disputatious]

Foreshadowing of her new husband, Victarion.

You have heard of Shiera Seastar, now I give you Victarion Seashit. :(