Dany will NOT fight the Others

[Disputatious]

That's really hard to say given that we do not know what AAR is supposed to DO.

Just so. "Save the world" is more than a little vague.

[Dr. Pepper]

Just so. "Save the world" is more than a little vague.

Though stuff like bringing on a living hell and a zombie apocalypse isn't exactly in "save the world" realm.

[Grail King]

But Martin directly connects them. Like, Martin actually made a point of having Dany liken this wall to the great one Vis spoke of. How isn't this a symbolic connection to that wall? There's other layers of symbolism, but Martin is making a big point of connecting those 2 walls in this case by calling attention to it so explicitly.

I think PW is right in so far as this is a symbolic connection, and potential foreshadowing. I just think he interpreted the foreshadowing opposite of what it's actually showing us. Dany is asleep, ants crawl all over her; like the sleeping woman at the HotU "Westeros" is being ravaged. But unlike the woman in the HotU, Dany sees what's going on, gets up and removes the threat. Any foreshadowing is saying that she's going to address and eradicate this threat in Westeros. But the ant hill left in tact would suggest that she's probably not the one who will eradicate the source of it.

I'm one who believes it's hard to really kill off an entire species, could also be taken as the job wasn't finished and they just hide for the next round another thousand (s) years, once the last hero dies. :dunno:

[LordStoneheart]

You have heard of Shiera Seastar, now I give you Victarion Seashit. :(

:bowdown:

Everyone, Victarion Seashit is now a thing. Pass it on.

[the trees have eyes]

Then Why did GRRM likened the wall to the Wall? Last time I checked, it was not in Meereen.

To show that her thought are turning away from Meereen to Westeros. There's a lot of that in her last chapters. It's more the way you equate her sleeping through the night as foreshadowing her being inactive even oblivious during The Long Night that is a huge stretch.

Actually, SS, I think he's right that this wall has a symbolic connection to the Wall; in particular, Dany herself likens it to that one. And I also think the way the ants swarm her sleeping body is a symbolic reiteration of the image in the HotU, only this time with a swarm of wights added to the mix.

If there's any "foreshadowing" at all here, it might simply be that she left the hill in tact; symbolically, that would seem to say that she might not be the person or one of the people who destroys the Others at their source. Which we can kind of start deducing anyway.

You're always pointing out that ice and fire need to be in balance rather than one triumphing over the other. Destroying the ants south of the wall and leaving the anthill intact (in The Land of Always Winter) would fit with this.

Well I disagree, I dont think the ants and the wall symbolize anything in Dany's last chapter. I think her getting bitten so many times contributes to her basic sickly state of being abused by the elements and nature while she is on her own.. And it is just showing that walking away from Drogon was a bad idea in general.

I prefer this. Ants don't really present much of a problem, if anything the wildlings are the ants, raiding south of the Wall and occasionally posing enough of a problem for The Starks to intervene directly. The Others are much more serious.

Either way, the next picnic in the park is going to be eye-opening for me....

[Mithras]

As I posted here, ants are not the only symbolism about the Wall and Dany's death.

[the trees have eyes]

Not sure if she will fight them, but I can see her letting the Starks/Jon fight the WW's; because after all they are the Usurpers dogs or descendants of. She could pull off the strategy of allowing her enemies to fight, weakening each other. If that is the case (not sure that is it), she would be sorely mistaken.

Ned Stark, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully were the usurper's dogs. Probably Tywin Lannister too. She may want vengeance against their children and to destroy their Houses (my money says not) but the idea that she would see a non-human threat to the whole of Westeros, aka The Long Night 2.0, as an opportunity to bleed her enemies, or see the Starks and white walkers as equally her enemies is a bit too whacky.

I really don't think she will miss the big picture or act that cynically. Thousands of people she wants to rule would be slaughtered by ice zombies and even Stannis got the idea (from Davos ok, but he still got it) that if you want to be King you have to defend the Kingdom not watch it bleed. Add her mysha nurturing side into the equation it is hard to see her sacrificing The North to take out one of Ned Stark's children. And there is the small matter that anyone slaughtered by ice zombies is raised as an ice zombie so practically speaking the enemy would be growing much stronger while the non-enemy (her people) were butchered and her ability to resist her enemy weakened.

An army covered in Ice...well technically since it has been snowing the entire north is covered in ice, including Stannis' army. Yes there is a blue rose in the wall. But that is Lyanna's symbol and Jon, and it could just be a vision given to Dany to let her know that someone important is there. I am not arguing that she will not go there. Beyond the wall...maybe she is the Night Queen. I would find it odd if she did not go there.

The Night Queen was a female Other. I'm not sure what you are implying here.

There seems to be a lot of cherry picking when it comes to prophesies, dreams, and visions. On one hand, this is clearly foreshadowing, and on another this just nothing at all.

Having said that, the reality is, nobody has WoW or DoS in their hands. There are a load of assumptions that Dany will remain a "good" character, or Jon for that matter. For all we know, it may not even go that way at all. I am starting to think that some are allowing their bias towards characters to cloud their judgement of the text. We are not the authors, Martin is, and the ending he pictured is probably not going to be the one we think will happen.

I do buy the clues Martin has left behind, but I am highly skeptical when people start only accepting the prophesies that support their character and discarding those that do not. As a Christian, I see this within Christianity all the time and it leads to blind fanaticism.

Rant off :cheers:

After five books and 20 years of this story why would you think GRRM intends Jon to be anything other than good? (I'd say Dany as well but that would inevitably turn this into a shitstorm about the innocent slavers so I'll pass). That assessment is entirely based on judgment of the text and of his character, beliefs and actions so seems pretty solid to me.

[butterbumps!]

You're always pointing out that ice and fire need to be in balance rather than one triumphing over the other. Destroying the ants south of the wall and leaving the anthill intact (in The Land of Always Winter) would fit with this.

Well, yea, I'm not sure that Ice is really the foremost "villain," nor am I sure that it even should be destroyed at the source. I might also even add that I don't think "the source" is what seems to be the popular interpretation. I think "Ice" is incidental; from my vantage, it looks more like the root of the problem is about toying with death. Which applies to both ice and fire.

[No Song so Sweet]

1) She did have a dream about being Rhaegar on the back of a dragon, fighting against army in ice. Perhaps ambiguous but it is in text

2) You're falling into the same trap as the OP, that Dany simply care for nothing except the IT, which is false in light of her arc in ADWD inw which she is given numerous opportunities to leave Slaver's Bay, is even advised to do so, and refuses because it would mean that "her people" would be put back into slavery. She flat out tells Selmy that if Westeros loves her so dearly that they will wait for her to come home. In short, Dany's mentality is caring for the common people, the slaves, the children. Turning her back on them in Westeros would be OOC

Alternatively, if you believe that Dany will become more ruthless and cold once she lands in Westeros, then her precious IT is in danger by the White Walkers. She will fight them if only to protect her claim to the throne.

3) Viserys told her about the Wall so he probably told her the legends of the Wall as well. She also has books of songs and history of Westeros that probably mention the legendary figures like the Last Hero and Symon Star-Eyes

That's really hard to say given that we do not know what AAR is supposed to DO. And in the legends we have about AAR from various people, no where does it say that AAR fights the Others. That's the Last Hero. Now they are probably one and the same, but the text so far hasn't confirmed that. So whether she's AAR or not doesn't mean anything at the moment since AAR's status vis a vis the Others is nonexistent.

1) Ok, very slight hint

2) So you are saying that it's not Dany's objective to go to the wall, but she may go there because there will be a battle there and she will want to help the kingdom? I am not doubting that this may happen. However as of now, we have no clues that this is going to happen at all. Dany has not been thinking at all about the wall and we haven't seen the others attacking yet.

For all we know, the wall may have fallen already, and it is very probable that it will fall before Dany even comes to Westeros.

So I don't have any reasons to think that Dany will be fighting others. If she arrives very late or very early, then yes she may fight them, depending on if the others are winning/losing fighting whoever is in the North then. But I think Dany's first objective is the throne. The smallfolk and her "love" for everyone just serve as a distraction from that, but her main objective is the throne. I don't think she wants the throne for the people, she just wants to be a queen that is also well-loved by her subjects, in that order.

3) Yes maybe she know a few things about the wall. My AAR point was to illustrate that Dany will not probably be the one fighting the others because it is her destiny because she is the PtwP, that's why i mentioned it.

Also the OP is right in the fact that the ants are a hint because THE wall is mentioned specifically, so it is a foreshadowing of something. We just don't know for what exactly, but I have read 2-3 assumptions that may work.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Just a general reply to several posts;

Jon is the ONLY person who TRULY understood the danger posed by the Others to the MANKIND. Even Stannis, who came and saw lots of crazy shit LEFT THE WALL to fight the Boltons. For those who are far away, everything is just SNARKS AND GRUMKINS.

Therefore, I give ZERO possibility that Dany will take any news from the North more serious than her IT.

I realize that it is five pages ago but still

That assumes that the Others remain a problem only for the North.

I think that Daenerys will at first ignore the Others for the Dance of Dragons and her version of Game of Thrones but she will have a change of heart once the Others crisis escalates into major threat for more than the North. Then she will realize the importance of the Others crisis.

The ant example you offered actually works for that with the Wall falling and ants surounding her. Then there is that foreshadowing of her giving battle to the Others on a Dragon.

[Mithras]

The ants are coming

[mb2518]

If anything, the dream where she's on the Trident, in place of Rhaegar, foreshadows her dying in battle against The Others.

[CharlesW]

Hmmm... hard to say.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If anything, the dream where she's on the Trident, in place of Rhaegar, foreshadows her dying in battle against The Others.

The one where the enemy forces melted away before her? I don't recall her dying in that. She begins as Rhaegar, but ends as herself. Where Rhaegar failed at the Trident, she will succeed. The difference could be that she'll not only be a dragon, she'll have one with her.

[RoamingRonin]

This passage clearly shows that Dany will turn her back to the Wall and sleep through the night until the Others/wights coming from the other side of the Wall bite her ass.

It is not a dream. A real event with a symbolic interpretation. GRRM specifically mentioned the Wall and the anthill on the other side of the Wall where the ants were coming to this side and biting humans. There is no nother explanation.

Dany is not AAR. She does not have any investment in the war against the Others. It has been 5 books already and she does not know anything about them. She will be occupied with the Second Dance.

In short, it is not happening.

If by book 6 and/or 7 Dany can land in Westeros and deny the Others are there then the story is screwed. Winter has come to Westeros and GRRM has already promised that the Others will be making more appearances in book 6. Not even an outsider should be ignorant of their existence.

Turning your back to the Others shouldn't be an option -- hell, it can't be an option. It doesn't matter if you don't look at them or turn to fight another battle: if the Others are in evading then everyone is a target. Wights didn't separate Chett from the rest of the Night's Watch did they? So why should Dany be able to "turn her back to the Wall"? If she turns her back she's going to get shanked by a wight or an Other. So what she's not "invested" in the war? If she lands in the middle of a Winter Westeros with Others everywhere she can't very well do nothing. She can't sit the Iron Throne and act like nothing is happening. It's not in her character and it shouldn't bloody well be possible. :bang:

The original post is dumb.

[Hodor's Dragon]

* * *

So you are saying that it's not Dany's objective to go to the wall, but she may go there because there will be a battle there and she will want to help the kingdom? I am not doubting that this may happen. However as of now, we have no clues that this is going to happen at all. Dany has not been thinking at all about the wall and we haven't seen the others attacking yet.

Actually there is a clue, but it's more of a thematic or stylistic clue than a factual clue. What I mean is that Dany has gotten the hero treatment in the series, and the Others have gotten the villain treatment. That's a clue that they may meet. We know that Dany is likely to be highly mobile if and when she finds herself in Westeros, making the hero vs villain confrontation a possibility, which is what it must be considered as.

For all we know, the wall may have fallen already, and it is very probable that it will fall before Dany even comes to Westeros.

It may, but let's step back a second. I don't think the actual point is whether Dany goes to the Wall, but whether she fights the Others. In fact, if the Wall does fall, that's a damned good reason for Dany to think about slipping Drogon into high gear in a northerly direction.

So I don't have any reasons to think that Dany will be fighting others. If she arrives very late or very early, then yes she may fight them, depending on if the others are winning/losing fighting whoever is in the North then. But I think Dany's first objective is the throne. The smallfolk and her "love" for everyone just serve as a distraction from that, but her main objective is the throne. I don't think she wants the throne for the people, she just wants to be a queen that is also well-loved by her subjects, in that order.

I'm with you here until you say "in that order" at the end. Does that mean ruling first priority, ruling well 2nd priority? You're right, the throne is her objective, but if she learns that the realm is in immediate danger I don't think she will tie down all her forces, particularly of the airborne variety, in an assault on King's Landing. Not unless it was quick. She shouldn't and I think wouldn't want the realm to be despoiled so she can do an immediate conquest instead of one after the realm is safe.

Of course all this very much depends on what she knows of Westeros, but I think it's notable that she hasn't needed to know anything about Westeros yet. Tyrion is coming, and she is planning to have more conversations about Westeros with Selmy. She will have the opportunity to know a fair bit before she arrives (assuming she ever does).

* * *

[IRON BANK]

It's not your quotes I have a problem with. It's the way you phrase the premise as if your interpretations and predictions are complete facts. You cannot say for certain it won't happen. You can only speculate and point out that there is little foreshadowing besides her dream and... ants?

Exactly: To talk with surety, does not mean certainty.

[Mithras]

If by book 6 and/or 7 Dany can land in Westeros and deny the Others are there then the story is screwed. Winter has come to Westeros and GRRM has already promised that the Others will be making more appearances in book 6. Not even an outsider should be ignorant of their existence.

Turning your back to the Others shouldn't be an option -- hell, it can't be an option. It doesn't matter if you don't look at them or turn to fight another battle: if the Others are in evading then everyone is a target. Wights didn't separate Chett from the rest of the Night's Watch did they? So why should Dany be able to "turn her back to the Wall"? If she turns her back she's going to get shanked by a wight or an Other. So what she's not "invested" in the war? If she lands in the middle of a Winter Westeros with Others everywhere she can't very well do nothing. She can't sit the Iron Throne and act like nothing is happening. It's not in her character and it shouldn't bloody well be possible. :bang:

The original post is dumb.

You are making a lot of assumptions without paying attention to Dany's character development and the facts George already confirmed. It is certain that there will be a Second Dance of Dragons between fAegon and Dany. I don’t think any of them will want to give a break to the civil war and help the NW. Why should they waste their men and resources for something happening up in the North and risk losing the civil war?

Not even an outsider should be ignorant of their existence.

A big assumption and wrong. People are selfish. Most of the lords do not believe in snark and grumkins. Even if some of them come to believe in the Long Night, they can not do anything without the leave of their lieges and monarchs.

Turning your back to the Others shouldn't be an option -- hell, it can't be an option. It doesn't matter if you don't look at them or turn to fight another battle: if the Others are in evading then everyone is a target. Wights didn't separate Chett from the rest of the Night's Watch did they?

Still you are making big assumptions. You talk like every person in the Planetos will realize the real threat against the humanity. That is not the case and I doubt it will ever be (at least completely). If that was the case, people would set their differences aside and flock to the Wall side by side as soon as the Wall falls. I don't think George will write such a cheesy story.

So why should Dany be able to "turn her back to the Wall"? If she turns her back she's going to get shanked by a wight or an Other. So what she's not "invested" in the war? If she lands in the middle of a Winter Westeros with Others everywhere she can't very well do nothing.

You are assuming that Dany will believe in snarks and grumkins. Since she is not invested in the war, I doubt she will take the plea of the NW seriously. None of the claimants to the IT did. Stannis came to the Wall after he lost most of his armies and chance to take KL by force. Tyrion believed in the snarks and grumkins but he could not risk being seen as believing in them. And he could only send a minor help because he was in the middle of a war.

It is also highly probable that the Boltons will be defeated and the North will declare for Stannis. I doubt Dany will be willing to send her armies to protect the people that defy her, or even risk her armies to the betrayal of Stannis.

She can't sit the Iron Throne and act like nothing is happening. It's not in her character and it shouldn't bloody well be possible. :bang:

You are assuming that she will ever sit on the IT in the first place. You have a good deal to learn about Dany’s change of character. In her final chapter in ADwD, she realized that her real home is Westeros and she gave up caring everything else. I think her only priority will be the IT and as long as a Usurper sits on it, she will not care anything else. That is what Fire & Blood means. That is why she gave up planting trees in a place that is not her home.

The original post is dumb.

I think your reasoning in this post is dumb.

Actually there is a clue, but it's more of a thematic or stylistic clue than a factual clue. What I mean is that Dany has gotten the hero treatment in the series, and the Others have gotten the villain treatment. That's a clue that they may meet. We know that Dany is likely to be highly mobile if and when she finds herself in Westeros, making the hero vs villain confrontation a possibility, which is what it must be considered as.

I don't think Dany got any hero treatment. More like she is turning into a villain.

You also assume that every "hero" in the series should unite against the common enemy. I think George will subvert that classical trope.

Ned got the hero treatment in AGoT and how did that end? He died denying everything he believed and his death was futile.

It may, but let's step back a second. I don't think the actual point is whether Dany goes to the Wall, but whether she fights the Others. In fact, if the Wall does fall, that's a damned good reason for Dany to think about slipping Drogon into high gear in a northerly direction.

I don't think Dany will go to North on Drogon alone especially if the North is held by Stannis and defies her. And I don’t think she will head North as long as fAegon lives and Cersei sits on the IT.

I'm with you here until you say "in that order" at the end. Does that mean ruling first priority, ruling well 2nd priority? You're right, the throne is her objective, but if she learns that the realm is in immediate danger I don't think she will tie down all her forces, particularly of the airborne variety, in an assault on King's Landing. Not unless it was quick. She shouldn't and I think wouldn't want the realm to be despoiled so she can do an immediate conquest instead of one after the realm is safe.

Of course all this very much depends on what she knows of Westeros, but I think it's notable that she hasn't needed to know anything about Westeros yet. Tyrion is coming, and she is planning to have more conversations about Westeros with Selmy. She will have the opportunity to know a fair bit before she arrives (assuming she ever does).

Agree to disagree here. You are missing the Second Dance of Dragons completely. I don’t think Dany will leave the South to fAegon and head North to waste her armies, even dragons in fighting the Others to keep the people that defy her in the South safe.

[fuem]

I wish I was creative enough to turn a anthill into the battle of the dawn

[Mithras]

I wish I was creative enough to turn a anthill into the battle of the dawn

George is.