R+L=J v.91

[J. Stargaryen]

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

[stateofdissipation]

That's an assumption. Do sheets stained in blood need the blood to be fresh in order to smell of blood? How fresh must the blood be to still smell of blood? How many hours, and to 4 decimal points please.

Do sheets stained in blood need the blood to be fresh in order to smell of blood?

Yes blood only smells like blood when it is fresh.

After that it smells like roadkill.

How fresh must the blood be to still smell of blood?

What is the temperature, humidity, wind speed,and volume of the blood?

What is the white blood cell count and was this the blood of an anemic or hemophiliac?

How many hours, and to 4 decimal points please.

Provide the information I requested from the text and I will give you hours to 4 decimal places... and the air speed velocity of an unladen african swallow.

[BearQueen87]

Goodness, we seem to moving rather quickly, don't we?

[Aeron_Damphair]

mambru:

Does this count as citing the text?

"Kingsguard"- the word itself has some implications.

If the king, crown prince, and the next in line all die, who do we naturally expect the "kingsguard" to "guard?" The answer is in the word the "king."

So the default assumption should be that the final loyal members of the "kingsguard" would "guard" the "king." They might not necessarily be doing this, but for the sake of argument, we need to understand that this position is the established default position.

If one cannot agree with the bolded, their contributions to a thread such as this can't be taken seriously.

Now, just because this is the default position, that doesn't necessarily mean that this is automatically what the kingsguard are doing. There are exceptions.

Perhaps they are no longer loyal.

This is clearly not the case here for reasons that need not be reiterated. "We swore a vow" "Kingsguard does not flee" "Then or now"

Perhaps they are physically unable to guard the king at this moment.

This has been alluded to by some, that perhaps the trek to Dragonstone is too treacherous under the circumstances. I don't find it convincing and I think you would have to work pretty hard to establish this as legitimately competitive with the default assumption and I don't think the evidence is there.

Perhaps their presence would actually place the king in greater danger.

This could very well have been the case at Duskendale IMO. All we know for sure about Duskendale is that the king was a hostage for 6 months. This is a sensitive situation, one more likely to be resolved with the king's life intact by sensitive means, diplomacy, espionage, trickery, etc. In such a situation, it is impossible for a kingsguard to be forthright in the line of duty. One cannot simply ride to the king's side and slay his captors. The utmost caution must be exercised to secure a still breathing monarch. It is easy to see why Tywin Lanniser would be involved in this scheme and why the kingsguard would seek his counsel in how best to carry it out. IMO, it absolutely does NOT present a legitimate problem for the "obey vs protect" conundrum that has been suggested.

(Parenthetically I would add that Tywin was "the hand of the king." In a sense, there is not a complete distinction between him and Aerys. Figuratively he is part of the king, an inseparable component of the whole "speaking with the king's voice and ruling in the king's absence." Again, it is in the very name of the position. Therefore there is some justification for the kingsguard to be compelled to be certain Tywin approves of the mission that was ultimately carried out.)

Perhaps they were ordered to do something else

I know this is your favored alternative motivation so I'll dive into it just a bit more deeply. In the case of "Barristan, Bob, and the boar" you have a reigning monarch commanding his companions (including a kingsguard knight) to stand aside so that he may simply participate in the process of hunting. He cannot kill the boar with his weapon of choice without absorbing some risk, anymore than he could have participated in the melee at the Hand's Tourney or even ridden his horse to Winterfell and back. He was not "left unprotected" in the sense that Viserys was at Dragonstone and to forward this as a legitimate comparison is disingenuous in my honest opinion. Also, Viserys certainly didn't order the ToJ 3 to stay away, so the order did not come from the reigning monarch.

In the case of the hypothetical order to "guard the ToJ against all comers" there are several problems. First, who did this order come from? The contention, to the best of my recollection is that Rhaegar ordered the three to stay there. If Rhaegar died at the Trident, however, he never actually was the king, as the sack didn't occur until weeks later. It may be that the ToJ 3 didn't know of Rhaegar's death until they knew of Aerys's though, but I don't think that is hugely important. To continue to follow Rhaegar's order is to forsake Aerys's heir (but of course Viserys is every bit as much Rhaegar's as Aerys's direct heir). So the orders of a dead crown prince now take precedence over the first duty to the dead king (their duty to Aerys). Would Aerys have ordered the ToJ 3 to guard a mistress and bastard over protecting the heir to the dynasty? The question answers itself.

Secondly, the idea that the order to guard a mistress and a bastard could take precedence over the survival of House Targaryen and the royal line is an absurd reversal of priorities that should be enough to dismiss the suggestion without serious consideration. This is the part on which I understand that we strongly disagree, but you have demonstrated consistently that we will have to agree to disagree, because we have (through dozens of posts) failed to come to any common ground on the matter.

What would it take for the kingsguard to believe that Rhaegar himself would wish that they would forsake his own heir for the survivor of his mistress and bastard? In my opinion, they would have to believe that Rhaegar had, prior to his death, essentially given up on the Targaryen dynasty, that he was now simply a lovestruck tragic hero that would forfeit the survival of his house to protect the woman he loved and the product of their union.

If the bolded here is true it is problematic in two ways: First, it is senseless for the kingsguard to refer repeatedly to their "vow" if the order that they are following has so little to do, and is in complete dereliction of, their first duty. Second, and perhaps just as importantly, it shows that Rhaegar absolutely loved Lyanna more than life itself. We know that he wanted a third head to the dragon. If the above scenario is correct we know that nothing was more important to him than Lyanna. In what universe would he be likely to have planted a bastard in her belly?

Leaving all of the above arguments aside, let's go back to the beginning. The italicized exceptions above are just that: exceptions. We must understand that even to acknowledge them as possibilities is to concede that they exist as secondary to the default assumption that the "kingsguard" guards kings.

You are constantly demanding that I provide specific textual examples that demonstrate that your exceptions are not, or should not be the default. I'm sorry, but I don't see how the burden of proof is on me in any way shape or form. I hope what I've provided here sheds a little more light on my position.

---I know I'm short on quotations, but I don't think my information is inaccurate as stated.

(I considered spoiler hiding all of this, and perhaps I should have, but I was directly challenged on not citing the text and wanted to demonstrate that I have done so, if not in quotation, in general, and I believe the "default" discussion is still relevant and perhaps underdiscussed)

[Shinjuku Thief]

Apologies for more bloody bed nonsense.

and your basis for expanding or contracting the term is what?

Ned remembering Lyanna in her bed of blood.... is Ned remembering Lyanna in childbirth.

I wish you'd learn to quote properly.

What is your basis for 'bed of blood' referred to the exact moment of delivery or even in the process of childbirth? Which delivery counts, only the child or what about the placenta? Your previous quotations do not provide any measure of exactitude.

Don't forget that bleeding can continue for quite some time after birth. Can you tell me exactly how long "quite some time" is? Please remember, provide answers to four decimal places, fractions are not acceptable.

Edit:

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback.

Post-natal care is within the scope of the 'secrets of the bloody bed', you do realise?

[mambru]

It is not the WOW factor of them being married per se--it is the WOW factor that them being married means that Jon actually is the heir to the Targaryen throne. Now that is a mind blower.

Maybe - but I think it's likely that after The Long Night and the Apocalypse, the question of "who has the right to the Iron Throne" will end up being as irrelevant and absurd in retrospect as a fight to the death over a rusty cheese-grater.

I think a lot of the point of the novels that GRRM gradually makes clear over time is that the Game of Thrones is the occupation of short-sighted fools, with the Iron Throne as bait to a trap - no matter how clever they are with their moves in backstabbing each other and gaining temporary advantages in their quest for power and prestige, they're ignoring the approaching disaster - and in fact worsening its eventual impact with their greed and foolish dispute over royal rights and claims. I think the long-term outcome is that the Iron Throne - whose possession so many fought over to such horrible effect - will ironically be abandoned and forgotten when the few who remember what really counts turn their backs on it to rebuild the world, after they've saved it.

I think the show even foreshadows that when we see Dany enter the throne room and sees the throne empty, the roof smashed in, the palace abandoned. If that's the future - I think that having the title to sit on that abandoned, lockjaw-causing chair doesn't seem too consequential

[Ser Leftwich]

Jon was, of course, born 13.6 days before Ned arrived. If you have not done that maths, you can't possible have any input here! (I am very drunk.)

But seriously, Jon was born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe - but I think it's likely that after The Long Night and the Apocalypse, the question of "who has the right to the Iron Throne" will end up being as irrelevant and absurd in retrospect as a fight to the death over a rusty cheese-grater.

I think a lot of the point of the novels that GRRM gradually makes clear over time is that the Game of Thrones is the occupation of short-sighted fools, with the Iron Throne as bait to a trap - no matter how clever they are with their moves in backstabbing each other and gaining temporary advantages in their quest for power and prestige, they're ignoring the approaching disaster - and in fact worsening its eventual impact with their greed and foolish dispute over royal rights and claims. I think the long-term outcome is that the Iron Throne - whose possession so many fought over to such horrible effect - will ironically be abandoned and forgotten when the few who remember what really counts turn their backs on it to rebuild the world, after they've saved it.

I think the show even foreshadows that when we see Dany enter the throne room and sees the throne empty, the roof smashed in, the palace abandoned. If that's the future - I think that having the title to sit on that abandoned, lockjaw-causing chair doesn't seem too consequential

I completely agree that KL and the IT are going to be burnt to the ground ( Cersei and Wildfire style!) but that doesn't mean that Westeros doesn't recover from the Long Night. GRRM is not going to say, "and the Dawn came!" and *fade to black.* There needs to be some sort of recovery. Now, maybe that means that there is a new throne and capital set up. Maybe the kingdoms divide once more. Maybe they decide try democracy! Or...not. But that's where I think Jon comes in, with his deeds and actions and status as TPTWP, a status he has because he's the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Targaryen)

[sj4iy]

Maybe - but I think it's likely that after The Long Night and the Apocalypse, the question of "who has the right to the Iron Throne" will end up being as irrelevant and absurd in retrospect as a fight to the death over a rusty cheese-grater.

I think a lot of the point of the novels that GRRM gradually makes clear over time is that the Game of Thrones is the occupation of short-sighted fools, with the Iron Throne as bait to a trap - no matter how clever they are with their moves in backstabbing each other and gaining temporary advantages in their quest for power and prestige, they're ignoring the approaching disaster - and in fact worsening its eventual impact with their greed and foolish dispute over royal rights and claims. I think the long-term outcome is that the Iron Throne - whose possession so many fought over to such horrible effect - will ironically be abandoned and forgotten when the few who remember what really counts turn their backs on it to rebuild the world, after they've saved it.

I think the show even foreshadows that when we see Dany enter the throne room and sees the throne empty, the roof smashed in, the palace abandoned. If that's the future - I think that having the title to sit on that abandoned, lockjaw-causing chair doesn't seem too consequential

Actually, I see it as saying that the Iron Throne is a heavy responsibility which has not been held by anyone who took it seriously for a very long time and has been destroyed by schemers, madmen and politicians over the years...just as they've destroyed the realm alongside it. It will not be a prize to whomever takes it in the end...it will be a burden.

[corbon]

Common sense?

Hmmmm....

At the time of the sack:

King = Aerys @ KL with 1 KG

#1 heir = Aegon (R's older son) @ KL with 0 KG (unless you count Jamie twice)

#2 heir = Viserys @ D'stone with 0 KG

#2 heir (potentially) = Jon T @ toj with 3 KG

This is upside down. 3 KG for the least likely member of the line of succession?

KG do command men in the field so why not 1 KG with a small force at his command?

Because secrecy.

The ToJ is hiding from both the King and the rebels. Its best cover is secrecy, so that means as small force as possible, and only highly trusted men.

But, it's still an abandoned watchtower in the marches (ie middle of nowhere borderlands) and Lyanna will need enough protection to survive randoms like wild animals (a pack of wolves, or a lion for example) as well as local bandits and brigands.

So a small handful of elite and highly trustworthy warriors is the ideal force composition.

Meanwhile the rest of the royal family have 4KG, a huge army, all the goldcloaks, Rhaegar himself and the invincible Red Keep protecting them. As long as the King has at least 1 KG by his side, then the KG as an institution are guarding the King and other KG can be detatched for other duties, so they are not breaking any rule or vow being there.

At least, not until they find out that Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is dead, Aegon is dead and Viserys is at Dragonstone, sans KG. Then they are breaking their institutional vow if Viserys is their king and they do not send a KG to guard him.

1) Robert believes Ned, but what can Ned say to the question, "why were three KG at the toj?" He will lie to protect Jon, but as I said before, he's not good at it and that's gonna take a lot of explaining.

Why would Robert ask that.

Why would Ned tell him that in the first place?

All that is necessary is that he found Lyanna and she died of a fever. The KG never need to be mentioned.

Because he took Dawn to Starfall, it can be inferred that at some stage he or his men found or killed Arthur Dayne. He can readily admit to that, but there is no need for it to be connected either to Lyanna, or to the other two KG. He has no need to mention them at all.

Take the other two (if not all three) KG out of the Lyanna picture and there is just no basis for speculation to start from or thrive on. Its that simple.

eta

the more I think about it the more I think there must have been a maester at the toj. I doubt that the news would come from KL - it would come from Rhaegar's host at the Trident. The maesters with Rhaegar and his 3 KG would be sending ravens straight to the toj.

A Maester is possible, but as noted, there would be no ravens flying to ToJ because for a raven to fly there it must have been raised there and sent away, like a homing pidgeon. As an abandoned watchtower in the dornish marches, there would be no active rookery providing trained ravens to send away.

Do we know how Ned found out about the toj/Lyanna's where abouts? How did Robert end up not going? His wounds taken at the Trident, most likely. So Robert and Ned defeat Rhaegar's host and capture his maesters. While Robert is laid low by his wounds (and out of his gourd on milk of the poppy) Ned discovers that R's maesters are sending ravens to a remote watch tower in the Dornish Marches. He concludes Lyanna is there, but doesn't share this with Robert?

There is no reason to think Robert ever knew anything about ToJ. Ned appears to have learned at or after he took the surrender of the Tyrells at Storms End, because before that he's just doing royal business tidying up the war, and after he disappears with a handful of picked men.

And no, sharing it with Robert would be unlikely. Its clear that Ned had a fair idea that Lyanna didn't want Robert (based on her words to him), and possibly that the 'abduction' was a mutual elopement (based on his thoughts comparing Robert to Rhaegar) so unless he wants to probably force his sister into a marriage she doesn't want he needs to keep the options open of keeping her a secret from Robert, at least until he's discussed it with her. That also goes to his choice of a select number of very close associates - it seems clear he's picking them for their personal loyalty to him and his house, men he can trust to hide secrets even from popular King Robert to whom they owe ultimate allegiance.

At what point does he let Robert in on the news that he knows where Lyanna is?

Robert was well enough to travel from the Trident to KL but not well enough to go the toj? Seems to me his Lyanna obsession was such that he would have insisted.

I imagine he never told Robert where Lyanna was, not even afterward, just that he found her, she died of a fever and he's taking her bones home to bury in Winterfell.

You very funny milord.

However, Mr.LF would eventually make his way to KL and catch up on the news. With his agile mind and his interest in all things connected to Catelyn Tully Stark he would take a keen interest in the mystery of the toj which would lead him inexorably to the question we've been considering.

I know what I think he would have made of it. What do you think?

LF can be ignored on this issue. He was very young at the time, had no connections, position or influence, had not yet begun his career under Jon Arryn at Gulltown even.

And without the knowledge of the three KG at ToJ, there is no mystery at ToJ for him to later pick into.

But it also seems to me they would have blocked Ned's path to Lyanna whether they knew or not. It seems rather foolhardy* that 3 men would think they could stand forever against Ned when all the other Targaryen forces had been defeated or bent the knee.

* and that's being kind. Dumb is just as accurate. But as we see repeatedly through AGOT Ned's idea of honor often veers over the line of sense. Not hard to imagine him seeing the pointless loss of life at the toj as an act of honor.

They don't have to stand forever, they ony have to kill these 7 men. They need to draw them in, entice them to all commit to the fight, and then let none escape.

Remember, their primary defence is secrecy. Once that is gone they are lost. They can't flee now, due to Lyanna's illness, and they can't hold out with only 3 men forever against any serious force.

But Ned coming with such a small force indicates that there is a chance that secrecy still holds - at least holds long enough for the Lyanna situation to resolve and for them to be able to travel again probably to Essos, exile, and a rebuild over decades.

And no offense, but as usual, a poster claiming something was 'dumb' usuually shows more about the poster's understanding of the situation than characters who are experienced veteran warriors.

These guys knew their business and were thebest of the best. They were used to thinking strategically as detached commanders and generals. If they chose something we think is dumb, then the chances are its our understanding that lacks rather than theirs. Probably.

Maybe.

In that case you'd have to send the raven to Nightsong or Kingsgrave and have a rider take the news the rest of the way. Given that Nightsong belongs to House Caron , bannermen to Storm's End, that's probably not where the ravens are going. More likely Kingsgrave of House Manwoody, bannermen to the Martells.

Secrecy. Hiding stuff from Aerys as well as the rebels means the smallest number of participants possible. House Dayne is trusted assumably because of Arthur. I very much doubt that any other House knew of the ToJ situation.

I am very curious about the Varys element in the whole Rebellion and it's aftermath.

...

What they lead to is tension between Varys and Rhaegar where I can see Varys putting "little birds" in Starfall and Griffin's Roost where R's two companions reside.

Varys is good, but not omnipotent. His 'little birds' are specific to the Red Keep where he has close control over them and they know the secret passags intimately.

Outside the Red Keep I doubt Varys' spy network is much beyond 'normal' for any spymaster.

And again, without the knowledge of the 3 KG all at ToJ with Lyanna, there is no real 'story' to dig into.

So I don't think Varys is a factor here any more than Littlefinger is.

But back to Varys, so at the point that Robert takes his throne, Varys and Pycelle are the advisors of Aerys. We put their survival down to Robert being a magnanimous winner in part. Pycelle being a Grand Maester of Oldtown i useful and fairly impartial. Plus he was the one that advised Aerys to let Tywin in, so he is allowed to keep his head and his seat on the small council.

Varys?

That's more tricky. Most likely Tywin as former hand vouched for his usefulness. But why didn't Varys further secure that loyalty by telling Robert "You might want to look into the events at the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar was hiding more than Lyanna there." Given Varys testy relationship with Rhaegar, what would hold him back?

I hope we get more about Varys and this mystery in TWOW.

See above.

Also, that magic moment seems to be happening a lot. Drogon breathed in her face hot enough to blister skin and she seems no worse for wear.

Well, she said it was hot enough to blister skin, but it apparently it didn't. I think this is clearly just a slightly exaggerated expression on her part meaning "his breath was really hot!"

And probably it would have blistered her skin if she'd stayed in that heat for several minutes rather than a few seconds, so its not even necessarily an inaccurate of exaggerated expression.

Here are the facts:

GRRM said that the dragon-birthing pyre was a one-time magical event (in the context of Targaryen/Dany fire-proof-ed-ness).

Dany faced Drogons hot 'normal' breath with no lasting effect beyond noting how it was really hot (I guess its really just normal shouting-type outbreath-ed air that is really hot due to having just been in a dragon's lungs).

Dany ducked under drogons dragon fire (he makes a different noise when he spits it). Apparently it burnt off her hair, but her clothes were unburnt so if definitely missed her in general.

Dany grasped a red-hot spear shaft to pull it out of Drogon and suffered burns on her hands doing so (there is no indication her burns were friction burns at all, or any event that caused friction pain).

Dany (and Egg) like hot baths, but there is no indication that they are actually supernaturally hot or anything. I like a really hot bath, so hot my wife won't touch the water, after a sports event as part of my relaxtion/recovery (the body is older than the mind is willing to admit, so I often end up pretty bruised and aching afterwards, even on non-contact sports).

Viserys died of a crown of molten gold - his head was cooked.

Targaryens died from dragon fire and drinking wildfyre before.

The Targaryen fire immunity is the same myth that Viserys propagates about sickness immunity. Targaryen have died of disease, and Dany gets sick. Its bullshit, but Viserys is ready to believe (and propagate) anything that tells the world he is a superior being, and he is Dany's only real source, her special big brother, so she naively believes him.

In summary, there is no fire immunity in general for Targaryens, nor sickness immunity, so there is no argument related to Jon Snow's burn there.

I'm simply stating alternatives, not necessarily disagreeing with anyone. Personally, I think Jon was born before the KG found out about the sack of KL, otherwise I think at least one of them would have been honor-bound to go to Viserys just in case Lyanna's son was a girl or died during childbirth. But I am open to other suggestions , as well.

Not honour bound. Its called an interregnum and Viserys does not become king until the child is born, and is female. While they might choose to send a KG to Viserys in case, they are not honour bound to until he actually is the king.

Which is all hypothetical anyway, because as you note, Jon may well have been born before they found out about the Sack.

[Ser Creighton]

Wait, stop. What the hell happened to 90? It started yesterday. Oh bed of blood and KG well that's just great.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Wait, stop. What the hell happened to 90? It started yesterday. Oh bed of blood and KG well that's just great.

Good morning Ser Creighton. I am speechless, too.

I must needs hire a secretary for the nightshift and to read me the excerpt in the morning.

[BearQueen87]

Wait, stop. What the hell happened to 90? It started yesterday. Oh bed of blood and KG well that's just great.

you forgot math. There was a lot of math.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It was mathness. It was like watching the Matrix... the Architect's speech...

[sj4iy]

It was mathness. It was like watching the Matrix... the Architect's speech...

Don't forget, pop quiz tomorrow.

[Dorian Martell]

HODOR!

[Brock00]

HODOR!

Third head of the dragon

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Picking up the second part ot @teej6's post:

Maybe someone else with ulterior motives (can't be Varys then he'd likely know about R+L=J) told Ned about where Lyanna was being held and this same someone was responsible for telling Brandon et al about Lyanna's abduction/rape expecting the events to unfold as it did.

That's an intriguing thoght and I wonder why I could not think of that myself. :)

Still it is not so much an implication as it might seem, because of the Kingsguard's aggression.

[Ygrain]

@honeyed chicken, I wanted to respond to your post but corbon has already done so and said what I would, so take his word for mine, for he is my Hand and speaks with my voice types with my keyboard except when it comes to Lemore's eyes but that is a different matter :D

[Ser Creighton]

Good morning Ser Creighton. I am speechless, too.

I must needs hire a secretary for the nightshift and to read me the excerpt in the morning.

No something funny is going on here and I know what it is.

you forgot math. There was a lot of math.

I am good at math and this only adds up to one thing, 100. You all just want to get to 100 so you can party.

In one day 90 is gone, Tyrion is a Gargole, 2 more Dany hate threads, a nobody knows what foreshadowing is thread, JonCon is killing Myrcella, Sandor is Azor Ahai, and I just can't keep up apparently. Oh and someone wanted to know what happened to Osgrey, but then it appears nobody really cared.