Ygrain Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I like that even better - storywise, I mean, not sympathetically. Oh the tragedy. :-/ Yes - which is why I would much prefer Ashara to be really dead, the tragedy of it is, IMHO, much better story-wise than the already repeated motive of not-being-really-dead yeah, very much in love with my blind spot :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes - which is why I would much prefer Ashara to be really dead, the tragedy of it is, IMHO, much better story-wise than the already repeated motive of not-being-really-dead yeah, very much in love with my blind spot :PI completely agree with this. It would make Ashara's story so very sad, more than it already had been.. Though I guess I could be okay with Ashara surviving her "death" and showing up later, we already have JonCon doing that for Aegon,no need to add Ashara to the mix as Lemore which is what is done usually).I like this take on the events much better.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It's not my fault if you can't even comprehend your own textual references."I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback."That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."- AFfC p. 21 That is a tough one. It could mean almost anything. Like exactly what it says bloody bed and bed of blood mean childbirth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes - which is why I would much prefer Ashara to be really dead, the tragedy of it is, IMHO, much better story-wise than the already repeated motive of not-being-really-dead yeah, very much in love with my blind spot :P Yes, please :agree: And then again, I don't want people not to be that helpless as to commit suicide, so I'd accept any continuation story that is at least twice as good as the ones that have been proposed so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 @Rhaenys, you scare me, writing pretty much the same stuff at the same time. Though I guess I could be okay with Ashara surviving her "death" and showing up later let's call it Davos-style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 And then again, I don't want people not to be that helpless as to commit suicide, so I'd accept any continuation story that is at least twice as good as the ones that have been proposed so far... Neither do I, but were I writing the story, I wouldn't be able to resist the motive (though probably bawling profoundly while writing it :D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 As I was paging through the previous thread, there is an issue I'd like to adress. It was suggested that Ashara may have been Ned's informant but then the question is why the ToJ showdown took place. My take is that possibly, the need to contact Ned arose after the Trident (Rhaegar's dead, so Lyanna and her child need help from her family) but before the news of the Sack reached ToJ. At that time, Rhaegar's children were still alive, and Jon, even if born already, was not the first in the succession line. Contacting Ned during this time window would have been safe. It is only the Sack and the deaths of Aerys and Aegon that drive the KG into protecting the secrecy at all costs, even against Lyanna's own family. I like this. It makes sense and fits with the tragic nature of her character. Rare beauty who was dishonored, had a stillborn child, and allegedly committed suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 https://blogs.qut.edu.au/student-sharehouse/files/2014/06/escalated-quickly.jpg I wan't to say a couple of things, since I missed a lot in 1 night: 1. This topic is going way to fast. I didn't read everything. Calm down :P2. Stop the freaking math! I specificly didn't look at date's, speeds, travel time and w/e while reading the book. But I still noticed that things don't entirely work out. First thing I noticed (mentioned on this forum somewhere aswell): Catelyn going to Renly way to quickly. And there are probably many, many more examples. GRRM stated himself that he DIDN'T do the math, so trying to 'prove' something by doing the math ISN'T going to work. 3. Stop the talk about the bloody bed. It's pretty clear it was because of childbirth. And if it wasn't, we will read it in WoW or aDoS, or maybe we will never read it. But since the references in the book, it's pretty clear. Well that was my talk. Wake me up when the topic gets interesting again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Well, mostly people assumed that the reasons for Ashara to kill herself is depression out of losing family in the war, but such depression could have also being triggered by the guilt of being a participant of the events that leaded the start of the rebellion, and caused the death of good people she knew and loved. Actually, it made more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Neither do I, but were I writing the story, I wouldn't be able to resist the motive (though probably bawling profoundly while writing it :D) Maybe you meant it just this way I will parrot your idea again: Ashara Dayne is nearby for the Battle of the Trident. When she learns of Rhaegar's death, she immediately sends a message to Ned in the field, telling that Lyanna is at the Tower of Joy, soon giving birth to her and Rhaegar's love child. When the message reaches Ned, King's Landing has already fallen, and newly crowned Robert just then gets presented with the bodies of the Targaryen children. Ned and Rob quarrel and Ned suddenly remembers his very urgent duty to relieve Storm's End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the Tower of Joy 600 miles south of the King's Landing saw 7 riders approaching. House Sark White, a direwolf courant argent. House Dustin of Barrowton two longaxes bladed gules crossed, a crown between sable, House Glover of Deepwood Motte Silver mailed fist on scarlet, House Cassel Ten white wolf heads, House Wull Azure, three wooden buckets tenné, a bordure chequy cendrée and white, House Ryswell of the Rills Bronze, a horse's head sable orbed and maned gules within a bordure, House Reed no coat of arms Howland Reed the Lord of Greytower Watch ---- Ethan Glover (Silver mailed fist on scarlet) had been arrested along with Brandon and was Aerys' prisoner in King's Landing. (Hightower was present) In no news arrived at the ToJ since Rhaegar left, what did the kingsguard know before a word was spoken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 https://blogs.qut.edu.au/student-sharehouse/files/2014/06/escalated-quickly.jpg I wan't to say a couple of things, since I missed a lot in 1 night: 1. This topic is going way to fast. I didn't read everything. Calm down :P 2. Stop the freaking math! I specificly didn't look at date's, speeds, travel time and w/e while reading the book. But I still noticed that things don't entirely work out. First thing I noticed (mentioned on this forum somewhere aswell): Catelyn going to Renly way to quickly. And there are probably many, many more examples. GRRM stated himself that he DIDN'T do the math, so trying to 'prove' something by doing the math ISN'T going to work. 3. Stop the talk about the bloody bed. It's pretty clear it was because of childbirth. And if it wasn't, we will read it in WoW or aDoS, or maybe we will never read it. But since the references in the book, it's pretty clear. Well that was my talk. Wake me up when the topic gets interesting again. 2. Stop the freaking math! I specificly didn't look at date's, speeds, travel time and w/e while reading the book. But I still noticed that things don't entirely work out. First thing I noticed (mentioned on this forum somewhere aswell): Catelyn going to Renly way to quickly. And there are probably many, many more examples. GRRM stated himself that he DIDN'T do the math, so trying to 'prove' something by doing the math ISN'T going to work. I have deliberately tried to be vague about such things, so I don't have obsessive fans with rulers measuring distances on the map and telling me Ned couldn't get from X to Y in the time I say he did. However, if you really must know, you can figure out the distances for yourself. The Wall is a hundred leagues long. A league is three miles. Go from there. But if you turn up any mistakes in travel times by using that measure, let it be your secret.--GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/04 agreed applying math to the books does not work. Applying math to a hypothesis does though. A hypothesis has to make sense with itself and the book. A hypothesis should not stand if it relies on GRRM making the same mistakes it is making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Sigh. If a book is written without math checkups, there are bound to be mistakes. If you then say "Your hypothesis is wrong, because according to my math ......" you're talking bullshit. If GRRM made a huge mistake and made someone travel 100 miles in a day by foot with heavy armor and in heavy weather conditions, it won't mean the entire storyline of that person is fake. Math is irrelevant and it can't support your hypothesis, since it isn't applied. IMO anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Sigh. If a book is written without math checkups, there are bound to be mistakes. If you then say "Your hypothesis is wrong, because according to my math ......" you're talking bullshit. If GRRM made a huge mistake and made someone travel 100 miles in a day by foot with heavy armor and in heavy weather conditions, it won't mean the entire storyline of that person is fake. Math is irrelevant and it can't support your hypothesis, since it isn't applied. IMO anyway. GRRM can't make mistakes... Math cannot support a hypothesis... agreed.. It can derail one... (A hypothesis that requires) The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely(, asks) so that people won't (to)sit down and do this sort of thing.(check it). The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.--GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances However, (A hypothesis that requires) The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely(, asks) so that people won't (to)sit down and do this sort of thing.(check it).is probably not worth checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 WTH happened to #90? Anyway, I'm more in the "Ashara is probably dead" camp. She might turn out no to be, but I would prefer for her to be, particularly if she really was responsible for her brother's death as suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 GRRM can't make mistakes... Math cannot support a hypothesis... agreed.. It can derail one... (A hypothesis that requires) The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely(, asks) so that people won't (to)sit down and do this sort of thing.(check it). The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.--GRRMhttp://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances However,(A hypothesis that requires) The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely(, asks) so that people won't (to)sit down and do this sort of thing.(check it).is probably not worth checking. In a way he can't make mistakes, since what he writes = true. But I meant a 'mathematical' mistake. Anyway, since it's not worth checking, why bother doing it. I never thought about it, and as soon as I read GRRM stating that he didn't do 'the math', I accepted that and ignored everything. I understand that people like to 'prove' things, but as you already said; GRRM can't make mistakes. So wether someone's calculation is correct or not, GRRM himself has the final word. It's fiction for a reason. WTH happened to #90? Anyway, I'm more in the "Ashara is probably dead" camp. She might turn out no to be, but I would prefer for her to be, particularly if she really was responsible for her brother's death as suggested. What would be the consequence if she was still alive? She can admit she is the mother? It's quite unlikely, but if she does, then R+L≠J. Let's assume that's not true, the only thing she can say is: I am not the mother. Somehow, I would really love a great twist about Jon's parents. Maybe a son of Robert or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 https://blogs.qut.edu.au/student-sharehouse/files/2014/06/escalated-quickly.jpg I wan't to say a couple of things, since I missed a lot in 1 night: 1. This topic is going way to fast. I didn't read everything. Calm down :P 2. Stop the freaking math! I specificly didn't look at date's, speeds, travel time and w/e while reading the book. But I still noticed that things don't entirely work out. First thing I noticed (mentioned on this forum somewhere aswell): Catelyn going to Renly way to quickly. And there are probably many, many more examples. GRRM stated himself that he DIDN'T do the math, so trying to 'prove' something by doing the math ISN'T going to work. 3. Stop the talk about the bloody bed. It's pretty clear it was because of childbirth. And if it wasn't, we will read it in WoW or aDoS, or maybe we will never read it. But since the references in the book, it's pretty clear. Well that was my talk. Wake me up when the topic gets interesting again. Maybe you meant it just this way I will parrot your idea again: Ashara Dayne is nearby for the Battle of the Trident. When she learns of Rhaegar's death, she immediately sends a message to Ned in the field, telling that Lyanna is at the Tower of Joy, soon giving birth to her and Rhaegar's love child. When the message reaches Ned, King's Landing has already fallen, and newly crowned Robert just then gets presented with the bodies of the Targaryen children. Ned and Rob quarrel and Ned suddenly remembers his very urgent duty to relieve Storm's End. In the total outcome, yes, but with a bit different details. When the news of the Trident reach ToJ, Lyanna wants to contact Ned and Ashara is asked to do so. Meanwhile, the Sack happens, so Ned arrives into a very much different situation that at the time when Ashara was dispatched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 What would be the consequence if she was still alive? She can admit she is the mother? It's quite unlikely, but if she does, then R+L≠J. Let's assume that's not true, the only thing she can say is: I am not the mother. Somehow, I would really love a great twist about Jon's parents. Maybe a son of Robert or something like that. She might provide information about ToJ but we already have Wylla and HR for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 In the total outcome, yes, but with a bit different details. When the news of the Trident reach ToJ, Lyanna wants to contact Ned and Ashara is asked to do so. Meanwhile, the Sack happens, so Ned arrives into a very much different situation that at the time when Ashara was dispatched. aha - I am very glad I asked for confirmation. Quite the story, and some more time for it to evolve! She might provide information about ToJ but we already have Wylla and HR for that. Some second hand complexity via Branvision, Ghostperception, Winterfell crypt dreams, maybe even a first ranger returning might also be in the pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 No something funny is going on here and I know what it is. I am sorry, but it seems I had just then run out of smileys. They will, of course, be delivered in the course of the day, I've been made to understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.