R+L=J v.91

[Attitude]

I am not relevant, but I am also 98% or 99% sure. As stated before, I only accept the word of GRRM as a fact, as should you all.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, def legit. And you are missing SoD although I'm not sure where he/she stands on the Jon legit argument.

I know where he stands. He believes in R+L and in that J is Legit.

[BearQueen87]

I am not relevant, but I am also 98% or 99% sure. As stated before, I only accept the word of GRRM as a fact, as should you all.

Yes, I only accept GRRM's word as fact. So let's say that I am 99.5% sure that Jon is the son of R and L and that he is legit. The .5% is in case GRRM suddenly pulls a fast one. (which I don't think he will)

[Alia of the knife]

On the topic of Ashara being Neds informant, and the question posed as to the possibility that she didn't tell him everything, I agree as well that I think she did.

But, I think its possible she didn't tell her brother that she was going to Ned.

I think she did it on the sly from whatever feelings of gratitude she might have had towards Ned for whatever he did to "help" her that overrode her loyalty to her brother, especially as Lyanna was so ill and looked to die.

Of course she didn't anticipate Ned having to kill her brother either.

As for the matter of the bed of blood, all joking aside, I think it is pretty EVIDENT that Martin is working from historical precedent, using an analogy on the different battles men and women fought as a statement on the brutality of the times.

Elizabeth of York, Jane Seymour are the most notable, but other notable women as well such as the woman who inspired the Taj Mahal, Persian Princess Mumtaz Mahal, died in her "bloody bed" giving birth to her fourteenth child.

It happened to the highest and the lowest, and most recently to a friend of a co-workers who was a former Lacrosse athlete, Pharmaceutical sales rep. who worked closely with the medical industry, who died at twenty-eight giving birth to twins in Johns Hopkins, in 2013.

Its still dangerous, and its still bloody.

And the harder the birth, the more blood there will be, as well as infection, and whether it was two weeks, or two days before Ned arrived, Lyanna would still be bleeding.

[Alia of the knife]

Legit.

I think, mambru is the main poster who think he's a bastard still.

honeyed chicken is 98% sure that R+L = J and we're working on that 2 %

Did I miss anyone...?

Mushroom. :D

[Ygrain]

So, just wondering...who thinks Jon is legitimate and who thinks he's a bastard?

Legit.

[honeyed chicken]

1) I don't think so. Dayne and Whent are Rhaegar's sworn shields. Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and stayed. Why? Either Rhaegar ordered him to stay (if Aerys didn't order Hightower to return then there's a loop hole) OR to force Hightower's hand, Rhaegar took Dayne and Whent with him as far as Storm's End, thus Hightower HAD to stay with R's new wife and unborn child. After Dayne and Whent get back from taking R to SE, the world went mad and everything happened all at once.

2) They consider Robert to be a Usurper. They are serving the rightful King, not the pretender.

I think it's a lot of the fine details, like why the ToJ and whether or not the KG would follow Rhaegar's last order in place of their primary duty....or something.

To your last line: precisely. Their first duty was to Aerys. There may be precedence (can you cite text for that?) for the heir to the throne taking 1 or 2 KG with him. And possibly I can see Rhaegar being able to send one KG off somewhere (like Arys Oakheart & Myrcella - although even that was with the consent of the Queen regent) - but 3 including the LC without the king's consent?

No.

I can't buy that. It makes no sense.

When Ned faced the KG Robert was the King, anointed with the seven oils and etc. The Targs may have looked at Robert as a usurper - the kingdom did not. The KG at that point were acting as rebels.

Whether they were acting appropriately or not, does not mean baby Jon wasn't born to R+L and alive in that tower, but the excuse given that the KG being there meant that the king was there doesn't square with the facts.

Clearly Jamie and Barristan accepted Robert's rule. You can question Jamie's honor and loyalty, but not Selmy's. Selmy was a Targaryen loyalist and he did not reject Robert's claim. Later he may have had doubts, but in the moment he accepted his new king. So why did the other 3 stand? At that point they were being more loyal to Rhaegar than they were to the kingdom.

Thanks.

Yes, it does indeed. Anyway, only the reader will notice, as Targs usually don't do wildling weddings :-)

AGoT 53 Bran VI

The fabled app confirms that Lord Rickard and the 200 finest of Norhern Nobility were indeed on their march from the North to Riverrun to attend the wedding of Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully. Elsewhere in a recent R+L thread I mentioned why I believe they could very well have been 1-3 weeks north of the place known as "The Crossroads".

I don't know if the camp was fortified, but come on, this is news in medieval times, so if it indeed wasn't fortified. as it might have been, nobody would ever believe that, truth aside.

Neither do I know if Lyanna was in the camp, and also not the circumstances of her leaving. I do indeed prefer her having left all of her own. Then, there were two Kingsguard with Rhaegar when it happened, so in the news that will definitely become an abduction and for tabloid value from admidst that fortified camp.

See. Some lies therein probably, just the way a good story evolves.

Ad 1) ... no, a member of the royal family can order Kingsguard to do what they want, there's plenty of precedence.

And if there wasn't, would not the king order them to do whatever his son tells them to do?

I do not have a good explanation.

I'm not sure Martin has one. He may never explain the whole thing and we'll always be left guessing (wouldn't surprise me)

And one more thing,

add these names to my list of how could they not know (if it is so clear to readers of ASOIAF that 3 KG at the toj means Jon is the Targ king):

- Jamie:

Jon W, you like imagined conversations, here's mine (takes place in th White Tower of the KG): Jamie, "Hey boss, where you going? I see you're getting all packed up."

LC Gerold Hightower, "Nevermind. Go practice swatting that quintain like I know you love to do, heh-heh." Jamie, "What? No instructions? You're leaving me alone with the King?"

GH, "Yeah, I know you're greener than an apple in May, but the king's going no place and he's got all his Gold Cloaks. he wants us to look after Rhaegar's little - whoops! Wasn't s'posed to say that." Jamie, "Lyanna? Oh, you're going to go wet nurse the young bride off in the middle of nowhere. Good luck - take a good book with you!"

- Tywin:

another conversation: Tywin, "So son, where's your boss? And the other KG - I know 3 were with Rhaegar at the Trident, so where are the other three?" Jamie, "Oh, they're off guarding Rhaegar's second wife." Tywin, "Second wife? You mean the Stark girl? 3 KG for a second wife? There must be a child - I will send Amory Lorch . . . "

[Attitude]

Yes, I only accept GRRM's word as fact. So let's say that I am 99.5% sure that Jon is the son of R and L and that he is legit. The .5% is in case GRRM suddenly pulls a fast one. (which I don't think he will)

:agree:

[sj4iy]

I am not relevant, but I am also 98% or 99% sure. As stated before, I only accept the word of GRRM as a fact, as should you all.

Everyone's relevant :)

[FrozenFire3]

Legit. To the full satisfaction of all the (ironic and symbolic) subtext.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So, just wondering...who thinks Jon is legitimate and who thinks he's a bastard?

So we are doing polls now? Time to prepare the v.92 boilerplate?

Legitimate.

Legit. To the full satisfaction of all the (ironic and symbolic) subtext.

:agree:

But I really think it will be of no matter to further the story.

[BearQueen87]

To your last line: precisely. Their first duty was to Aerys. There may be precedence (can you cite text for that?) for the heir to the throne taking 1 or 2 KG with him. And possibly I can see Rhaegar being able to send one KG off somewhere (like Arys Oakheart & Myrcella - although even that was with the consent of the Queen regent) - but 3 including the LC without the king's consent?

No.

I can't buy that. It makes no sense.

Hightower was sent by Aerys, though. And if Aerys never said to return to KL then technically Rhaegar can give him another order, especially if Rhaegar takes Dayne and Whent to SE's before he goes on to KL's with other guards. Once Hightower learns the situation at the ToJ then he can't leave the wife of the Prince and her unborn child alone. Rhaegar may have pulled a fast one on him.

As for Dayne and Whent...I think there is the idea that they were trying to serve the dynasty by assisting Rhaegar in his plans to quietly depose Aerys. We know that when asked how Dayne could be such a good knight but stand by and let Aerys do the things he did, GRRM replied, "well. Keep reading." If they are Rhaegar's sworn shields then they listen to him because Aerys already has other KG to protect him.

When Ned faced the KG Robert was the King, anointed with the seven oils and etc. The Targs may have looked at Robert as a usurper - the kingdom did not. The KG at that point were acting as rebels.

Technically speaking, not everyone had bent the knee to Robert when he was crowned. Ned still had to go and break up the siege at Storm's End. And they still had to take Dragonstone.

Clearly Jamie and Barristan accepted Robert's rule. You can question Jamie's honor and loyalty, but not Selmy's. Selmy was a Targaryen loyalist and he did not reject Robert's claim. Later he may have had doubts, but in the moment he accepted his new king. So why did the other 3 stand? At that point they were being more loyal to Rhaegar than they were to the kingdom.

Selmy's other option was death. He could die or he could be a knight to a new King. I like Selmy, but he chose to turn his cloak.

His brothers chose death.

[UnmaskedLurker]

As I was paging through the previous thread, there is an issue I'd like to adress.

It was suggested that Ashara may have been Ned's informant but then the question is why the ToJ showdown took place. My take is that possibly, the need to contact Ned arose after the Trident (Rhaegar's dead, so Lyanna and her child need help from her family) but before the news of the Sack reached ToJ. At that time, Rhaegar's children were still alive, and Jon, even if born already, was not the first in the succession line. Contacting Ned during this time window would have been safe. It is only the Sack and the deaths of Aerys and Aegon that drive the KG into protecting the secrecy at all costs, even against Lyanna's own family.

I know this theory is getting a lot of love and I usually find your arguments fairly compelling, but I am not sold on this one yet. I have two basic issues. First, if Ned learned of Lyanna's location before the sack, I cannot imagine that he would have led the campaign to Storm's End rather than go immediately to Lyanna. Someone else could have gone to SE rather than Ned, and getting to his very pregnant sister who likely would have just given birth by then seems problematic. Perhaps that issue could be explained that Ned thought that he could not avoid going to SE without raising too much suspicion from Robert, but I still am troubled.

The bigger reason, however, is that I am not sure that I see why Ashara would have thought it safe to let Ned know while the war was still raging, even given the death of Rhaegar and before the sack. The 3 KG at ToJ are going to be no more receptive to Ned if Aerys is still alive and the war is still raging on. How is Aerys still being alive and the status of who would win the war make the showdown less likely? Once Ashara tells Ned, she has to know that he will try to get to Lyanna. The 3 KG are even more likely to see Ned as the enemy while the war is still on going. It would be true that they would not be guarding the king, but they would still be confronting the #2 man in the enemy army. They would have even more reason to try to kill him if the war is still active.

No, if Ashara told Ned, it had to be right after the siege was lifted at SE. Ashara would have mistakenly thought that with the war over, the 3 KG would stand down and would understand that Ned was Lyanna's brother and could be trusted and there was nothing more to fight over because the war is over. To me, that explanation makes more sense. If it went that way, then Ashara obviously misjudged the 3 KG, even though one of them was her brother. Maybe I am missing something, but I just don't see how Ashara telling Ned pre-sack makes any sense.

[teej6]

On the topic of Ashara being Neds informant, and the question posed as to the possibility that she didn't tell him everything, I agree as well that I think she did.

But, I think its possible she didn't tell her brother that she was going to Ned.

I think she did it on the sly from whatever feelings of gratitude she might have had towards Ned for whatever he did to "help" her that overrode her loyalty to her brother, especially as Lyanna was so ill and looked to die.

Of course she didn't anticipate Ned having to kill her brother either.

As for the matter of the bed of blood, all joking aside, I think it is pretty EVIDENT that Martin is working from historical precedent, using an analogy on the different battles men and women fought as a statement on the brutality of the times.

Elizabeth of York, Jane Seymour are the most notable, but other notable women as well such as the woman who inspired the Taj Mahal, Persian Princess Mumtaz Mahal, died in her "bloody bed" giving birth to her fourteenth child.

It happened to the highest and the lowest, and most recently to a friend of a co-workers who was a former Lacrosse athlete, Pharmaceutical sales rep. who worked closely with the medical industry, who died at twenty-eight giving birth to twins in Johns Hopkins, in 2013.

Its still dangerous, and its still bloody.

And the harder the birth, the more blood there will be, as well as infection, and whether it was two weeks, or two days before Ned arrived, Lyanna would still be bleeding.

Yes, with regards to the bed of blood/birthing bed, Martin is working off historical events but I feel when he described the events in the first book he didn't fully understand the complications associated with birthing, like how long can it last and how long before infection and fever sets in. And maybe that messed up his timelines a bit.

[teej6]

Jon Weirgaryen,

It will matter to Dany if there is another legit Targ that precedes her right to the throne :)

[Ygrain]

To your last line: precisely. Their first duty was to Aerys. There may be precedence (can you cite text for that?) for the heir to the throne taking 1 or 2 KG with him. And possibly I can see Rhaegar being able to send one KG off somewhere (like Arys Oakheart & Myrcella - although even that was with the consent of the Queen regent) - but 3 including the LC without the king's consent?

No.

I can't buy that. It makes no sense.

Take it to GRRM, then - I'm sure that someone will fish for you the SSM about the KG obeying the royal family, as well.

When Ned faced the KG Robert was the King, anointed with the seven oils and etc. The Targs may have looked at Robert as a usurper - the kingdom did not. The KG at that point were acting as rebels.

Whether they were acting appropriately or not, does not mean baby Jon wasn't born to R+L and alive in that tower, but the excuse given that the KG being there meant that the king was there doesn't square with the facts.

Clearly Jamie and Barristan accepted Robert's rule. You can question Jamie's honor and loyalty, but not Selmy's. Selmy was a Targaryen loyalist and he did not reject Robert's claim. Later he may have had doubts, but in the moment he accepted his new king. So why did the other 3 stand? At that point they were being more loyal to Rhaegar than they were to the kingdom.

Not rebels, loyalists.

Yet, for some reason, Selmy doesn't make it to Ned's shining examples of Kingsguard.

As we have seen time and again, bending knee is not considered a dishonour when your side has lost and it's either that or death.

And one more thing,

add these names to my list of how could they not know (if it is so clear to readers of ASOIAF that 3 KG at the toj means Jon is the Targ king):

- Jamie:

Jon W, you like imagined conversations, here's mine (takes place in th White Tower of the KG): Jamie, "Hey boss, where you going? I see you're getting all packed up."

LC Gerold Hightower, "Nevermind. Go practice swatting that quintain like I know you love to do, heh-heh." Jamie, "What? No instructions? You're leaving me alone with the King?"

GH, "Yeah, I know you're greener than an apple in May, but the king's going no place and he's got all his Gold Cloaks. he wants us to look after Rhaegar's little - whoops! Wasn't s'posed to say that." Jamie, "Lyanna? Oh, you're going to go wet nurse the young bride off in the middle of nowhere. Good luck - take a good book with you!"

- Tywin:

another conversation: Tywin, "So son, where's your boss? And the other KG - I know 3 were with Rhaegar at the Trident, so where are the other three?" Jamie, "Oh, they're off guarding Rhaegar's second wife." Tywin, "Second wife? You mean the Stark girl? 3 KG for a second wife? There must be a child - I will send Amory Lorch . . . "

Good fanfiction shouldn't go against the canon. Jaime and 3 more KG can handle the duty just fine, at the time when Hightower is leaving.

And what makes you think that Rhaegar spread word at the court that he and Lyanna got married? That was neither the time nor place to push for any controversies.

snip

Well, I'm not totally wed to it :-) /pulls out Ethan Glover aka Rhaegar's messenger in case the battle went south/ :-)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It will matter to Dany if there is another legit Targ that precedes her right to the throne :)

If she comes to Westeros without her dragons.

[BearQueen87]

Good fanfiction shouldn't go against the canon. Jaime and 3 more KG can handle the duty just fine, at the time when Hightower is leaving.

And what makes you think that Rhaegar spread word at the court that he and Lyanna got married? That was neither the time nor place to push for any controversies.

When Rhaegar got back to KL from the ToJ, I think he very quietly told Elia that Lyanna was pregnant and that they had married. I think he also assured her that Lyanna's child would not take Aegon's place as heir.

I think Rhaegar told Aerys that when he got back from the Trident, things were going to change.

And..that's pretty much it.

[teej6]

If she comes to Westeros without her dragons.

Well, in that case she won't be able to make her righteous claim anymore and she'll have to call herself usurper. Off topic I know, will stop

[Alia of the knife]

I think Jon is legit as well.

Its "fAegon," (a.k.a., Perkin Warbeck), that is of bastard stock AND a pretender, though he be a dragon still- just not Rhaegars.