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RadianceLux

R+L=J | Re-read... again (List of Clues)

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Ok this is my first post, I am a long time reader of this forum but this is my first time posting, I just finished reading the Tales of Dunk and Egg. I remember reading the description of egg's eyes as appearing black unless looked at in good light. Now, I decided to re-read SoIaF again and I came across this line from aGoT chapter 1 pg. 22:



"Jon's eye were a grey so dark the seemed almost black, but there was little he did not see."





I will continue to post things I notice throughout this re-read that I feel are significant, feel free to join me :cheers: .


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aGoT Chapter 3 pg. 36




"Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved."


Here it clearly states that he loves Lyanna. I know it doesn't say that she loved him back but. Considering the length of time they were together and the fact that le loved her it stands to reason that they had intercourse whether it was consensual or not. Also considering Jon and Robb are the same age and that Ned consummated his married shortly before departing for the rebellion which was in response to Rhaegar "stealing" Lyanna, thoughts?

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They are very close in age. Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Her mother left KL for Dragonstone (where Dany was born.) about 8 months before Dany was born.


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aGoT Chapter 4 pg. 49:




"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly he fingers had clutched to his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was ...fond of flowers."



There is a lot to this excerpt first, it never says how she died only that she was in a room that smelled of blood and roses. as it says later in the except she was found of flowers and she had rose petals in here hand. also when Ned says "Lyanna was ...(as if he paused to leave something out) fond of flowers."



When Lyanna tells Ned to Promise her she seems to be pleading with him, and when he gave his word the fear goes away and she smiled as if relieved of her fear. She was obviously dying so what did she have to fear if you put that together with the description of her surroundings it becomes clear that she has just given birth and she wanted Ned to promise to protect the child.



Also of note in this except that Lyanna being in the crypt is part of this promise, maybe a way to ensure that no one would discover the cause of her death (childbirth).



Any thoughts?


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aGoT Chapter 7 pg. 71:


When Catelyn confronts Ned about Jon's Mother his response:




"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And I will learn where you heard that name, my lady" ... Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.



Note that Ned only says that Jon is his blood avoiding saying that he is his son, Ned is honest to a fault and hates when he must lie, he seems to go out of his way to avoid the lie without breaking his promise to Lyanna.


Of course Ned loved his sister (Jon's mother) fiercely. And he would not send him away because he promised Lyanna that he would protect him.


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aGoT Chapter 7 pg. 72:
When Catelyn refuses to keep Jon at Winterfell after Ned leaves and he is contemplation sending him to the Nights Watch:

Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful.

The interesting thing here is Martin's choice to have this from Catelyn's perspective so we don't know what Ned is being thoughtful about.

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aGoT Chapter 12 pg. 114:




"... We are not the boys we were."


"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. Any yet there was the one time... what was her name, theat common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine... Yours was Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"


Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."


"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget is honor, even for an hour. you never told me what she looked like ..."


Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight or gods and men."


"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."


"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."



What strikes me as interesting in this dialog is that Robert and Ned are best friend practically brothers and Ned only mentioned this Wylla to him once, probably after he had Jon as a way to explain him. Also note how Ned makes sure not to describe her as if to avoid unnecessary lying, which is a theme with his character, he only ever lies when it is to protect the people he cares about. There are only two instances where Ned dishonors himself, one is Jon and the other was lying about being a traitor to protect his family and prevent war. When he is in the dungeon in King's Landing and it contemplating whether or not to confess to a crimes he had not committed he is tormented by the memory of his promise to Lyanna, why?


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aGoT Chapter 12 pg. 116:


He remembered the angry words the had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaeger's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned has named that murder: Robert called it war... Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's Death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

I only mention this part because I have seen people on this forum say that Ned is so against the killing of Rhaeger's children because of Jon's linage. But Lyanna didn't die until after this took place, this confrontation was due to Ned's sense of honor. but it may be a bit of foreshadowing though.





... And Rhaegar ...how many times do you think he rapped your sister? How many hundreds of times?"



Yet another reference to intercourse between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't believe for a second that after hundreds of times she would not become pregnant, therefore R+L=?


Of course I must state that they could have used moon tea, but if so why did she die on a bloody bed, but we will get to that later.


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aGoT Chapter 20 pg. 120:


In this excerpt they are discussing the Kingslayer:




[Robert Speaking] Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."


"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.


"There was no honor in the conquest."


"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"


"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.


"That did not bring her back."



What I take from this excerpt is that the promise he gave to Lyanna involved a lie, a lie that is 14 years old! Same age as Jon, hmm.



Also by looking at this excerpt we can assume that the Trident happened after Lyanna's death, which I had thought they happened at the same time, because Ned was confused by the Kings Guard being at the tower because they should have been at the Trident with Rhaeger. But the Kings Guard guards the Kings family as well, right?


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aGoT Chapter 13 pg. 128:




[Tyrion describing Jon]He had the Stark face in not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she left little of herself in her son.



Note how Martin doesn't say Eddard's face but the Stark face, which he gets from his mother.



I have been noticing a trend throughout this re-read that when Martin highlights Jon's Stark feature he references them as Stark not as from Eddard, except when from the perspective of Catelyn,


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Arya's eyes are the same color so it's the Stark genes in Jon:

"Arya’s eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his"

And Arya looks like her Aunt Lyanna, I renamed the post. Looking for clues while we await the next book and some closer on the Jon cliff hanger. Driving me nutts :bang:

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aGoT Chapter 15 pg. 146:

She[Arya] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks,...
... And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered.

I know that others have already mentioned their similarities on this post and forum, but why did Martin italic, looked, and common? And there it is again the Stark look instead of looking like their father

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Chapter 20 pg. 120:

In this excerpt they are discussing the Kingslayer:

What I take from this excerpt is that the promise he gave to Lyanna involved a lie, a lie that is 14 years old! Same age as Jon, hmm.

Also by looking at this excerpt we can assume that the Trident happened after Lyanna's death, which I had thought they happened at the same time, because Ned was confused by the Kings Guard being at the tower because they should have been at the Trident with Rhaeger. But the Kings Guard guards the Kings family as well, right?

The Trident actually took place before Ned ended up at the ToJ and thus before Lyanna's death.

Timeline:

The Trident - Rhaella and Viserys flee to Dragonstone - Sack of KL - Siege of Storms End lifted - ToJ.

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aGoT Chapter 20 pg. 199




He could still hear Sansa pleading[for the life of Lady her Dire-wolf], as Lyanna had pleaded once.



This is a very telling line, Ned draws the comparison of Sansa pleading for the life of her dire-wolf and when Lyanna was pleading with him, Promise me, Ned. It would stand to reason that she was pleading for a life as well, if so who's life if not her newborn son.


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The Trident actually took place before Ned ended up at the ToJ and thus before Lyanna's death.

Timeline:

The Trident - Rhaella and Viserys flee to Dragonstone - Sack of KL - Siege of Storms End lifted - ToJ.

Ok so when Robert is saying revenge he means kidnapping her, thanks for the input. I am still trying to flesh this out

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Ok so when Robert is saying revenge he means kidnapping her, thanks for the input. I am still trying to flesh this out

There is a dedicated R+L pinned topic in General (ASOIAF) sub forum. Perhaps you may consider posting your questions there regarding this theory. There are a number of regulars in that thread who have spent years disecting this theory. Another important part of this theory revolves around Ned's ToJ dream and the three KG present. Here is an analysis of the dream by MtnLion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114775-rlj-v92/?p=6070753

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There is a dedicated R+L pinned topic in General (ASOIAF) sub forum. Perhaps you may consider posting your questions there regarding this theory. There are a number of regulars in that thread who have spent years disecting this theory. Another important part of this theory revolves around Ned's ToJ dream and the three KG present. Here is an analysis of the dream by MtnLion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114775-rlj-v92/?p=6070753

Thanks for the information, I am at this point just using this post to consolidate my thought and get input from the people who have gone before me, I have read much and more of the theories on this forum, on this re-read I am trying to go through without the assumptions others have made. Perhaps new insights can be made this way.

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I agree with you. Maybe we did miss some things on this theory, we have to keep on adding and subtracting facts to make it sound perfect. We have to sum every clue we find in the books to make sure that G.R.R.M does not pull our legs.


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