The Nature of Visions and Prophecies

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

any ideas on the Green Graces prophecies?

The cobbler told them how the body of the Butcher King had been disinterred and clad in copper armor, after the Green Grace of Astapor had a vision that he would deliver them from the Yunkai’i. Armored and stinking, the corpse of Cleon the Great was strapped onto the back of a starving horse to lead the remnants of his new Unsullied on a sortie, but they rode right into the iron teeth of a legion from New Ghis and were cut down to a man.

“Afterward the Green Grace was impaled upon a stake in the Plaza of Punishment and left until she died.

“We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow.”

[sapphire_lion]

There are prophetic visions such as the dreams the dwarf woman had or Jaime’s weirwood dream, and then there are prophesies like the one Maggy the Frog made.

It seems that dream visions tied to the Gods (especially the Old Gods) do have a tendency to come true.

ASOS Arya VIII:

"The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye."

(Stannis' shadow baby killing Renly)

"The wet one. The kraken king, m'lords.I dreamt him dead and he died, and the iron squids now turn on one another.

(Balon dying. Euron, Victarion, and Asha fighting for power.)

I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs.

(Sansa at Joff's wedding with her poison hairnet)

"a raging river and a woman that was a fish…dead with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, I woke from terror.

(Lady Stoneheart)

“In the hall of kings, the goat sits alone and fevered as the great dog descends on him.”

(The hall of kings is Harrenhal. The goat is Vargo Hoat. The great dog is the Mountain.)

ASOS Jaime VI:

“Give me a sword, at least.”
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

(Foreshadows Twyin giving Jaime Oathkeeper.)

“Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”
The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all.

(Foreshadows Jaime freeing Brienne and giving her Oathkeeper.)

“Do they keep a bear down here?”

(Foreshadows the bear pit.)

“What place is this?”
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

…

Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving.

(Foreshadows Jaime’s estrangement from his family, as well as, Joffrey, Tywin, and possibly Cersei’s death).

These visions are very different from prophesies that have been foretold. No one is trying to prevent or bring about these visions. Instead, these dreams seem to be preordained events that the Old Gods have shown to the dreamer. They have consistently come true and have foreshadowed a great deal of what was to come in terms of plot points and narrative.

I should also point out that Arya VIII and Jaime VI are consecutive chapters in ASOS. The dreams came to the dreamer because they were resting on the stump of a weirwood tree.

When looking at the treacherous nature of prophesies, we should make a distinction between an actual prophesy and a prophetic dream. It's clear that GRRM uses prophetic dreams as a tool for foreshadowing while he constructs prophesies in such a manner that they often mislead the characters in the story (and possibly the readers as well).

[JasonJD]

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

There are prophetic visions such as the dreams the dwarf woman had or Jaime’s weirwood dream, and then there are prophesies like the one Maggy the Frog made.

It seems that dream visions tied to the Gods (especially the Old Gods) do have a tendency to come true.

These visions are very different from prophesies that have been foretold. No one is trying to prevent or bring about these visions. Instead, these dreams seem to be preordained events that the Old Gods have shown to the dreamer. They have consistently come true and have foreshadowed a great deal of what was to come in terms of plot points and narrative.

I should also point out that Arya VIII and Jaime VI are consecutive chapters in ASOS. The dreams came to the dreamer because they were resting on the stump of a weirwood tree.

When looking at the treacherous nature of prophesies, we should make a distinction between an actual prophesy and a prophetic dream. It's clear that GRRM uses prophetic dreams as a tool for foreshadowing while he constructs prophesies in such a manner that they often mislead the characters in the story (and possibly the readers as well).

There seems to be two types of prophecies. Ones that follow the Oedipus mold of self-fulfillment, I think Cercei's will be an example of this. There are others and the GRRM quote by the OP points out its intentional. The other is the Paul/Leto Atreides of Dune prescience logic that just knowing the future changes it, sometimes subtly and sometimes in big ways, I think this follows more with Mel's visions in the flames, etc.

[sapphire_lion]

There seems to be two types of prophecies. Ones that follow the Oedipus mold of self-fulfillment, I think Cercei's will be an example of this. There are others and the GRRM quote by the OP points out its intentional. The other is the Paul/Leto Atreides of Dune prescience logic that just knowing the future changes it, sometimes subtly and sometimes in big ways, I think this follows more with Mel's visions in the flames, etc.

There are those kinds of prophecies and/or prophetic dreams, and then there are the prophetic dreams shown by the Old Gods in the context of how the dwarf woman and Jaime reacted to them. These visions portrayed past, present and/or future events that were either already realized or became realized. The dreamer seeing these visions had little to no effect on whether they happened. The dwarf woman’s visions were true, and her knowledge of them had no impact on them occurring. Furthermore, she made no attempt to interfere.

Similarly, much of what Jaime's dream foreshadowed has come to pass. But Jaime has made virtually no attempt to interfere with what his dream foretold. What’s more, he may not remember the dream as he has not mentioned it in two books. And even if he does remember, he never viewed the dream as a prophecy in the first place.

It’s true that Jaime’s dream functioned as an impetus for his returning to save Brienne; an action that actually served to bring about at least some elements which the dream foretold. However, Jaime having dreamt this dream is no longer informing his actions.

That’s where the distinction lies. Jaime had this prophetic dream preordained by the Old Gods, yet he does not react to it as if it were prophesy, because he does not know that his dream was in fact prophetic. Overall, both the dwarf woman’s dreams and Jaime’s dream have served to foreshadow future events more than they have served to influence the dreamer’s actions. The role these prophetic dreams have played in the narrative is very different from the role that Maggy's prophecy has played.

[Mithras]

any ideas on the Green Graces prophecies?

A Butcher (would-be) King is coming to smash the Yunkish Army at the Battle of Fire.

When Victarion opened his hand, his palm was red with blood.

“You warned King Cleon against this war with Yunkai. The man was a fool, and his hands were red with blood.”

[Mithras]

“An ant who hears the words of a king may not comprehend what he is saying,” Melisandre said, “and all men are ants before the fiery face of god. If sometimes I have mistaken a warning for a prophecy or a prophecy for a warning, the fault lies in the reader, not the book.

Oh, Mel thinks that some visions are warnings that are sent to warn the seer so that necessary action is taken to avert that vision. And other type of visions is prophecies that should come true no matter what. Mel took the vision of Renly defeating Stannis as a warning but that vision turned out to be a prophecy which was fulfilled only because of her actions.

I think there is no such thing as warning by a vision.

[Lord Varys]

Mel's general problem is that she is religious nut. Believing that R'hllor is communicating with you through visions in flames doesn't make it true.

The fact that she does not even consider the possibility that her magical visions may be nothing but a sort of 'secular magical craft' (or at least not sent to her by her R'hllor) strongly corrupts her capability to make rational decisions.

As to other prophetic stuff:

There may be a prophecy about the Stallion Who Mounts the World, but it seems to me that Rhaego was more or less fixed as this prophesied savior. The dosh khaleen were apparently investigating the fate/future of the unborn child of Daenerys Targaryen in their rituals. If their methods are reliable and work at all - which is not confirmed at -, there is a pretty good chance that they should have worked this thing out correctly. I guess is is difficult to confuse the mother with the child if you are specifically investigating the child.

But I'd rather believe that the dosh khaleen wanted to carry favor with Drogo.

On dragon dreams:

The fact that Targaryen dragon dreams confuse real and human dragons from time to time could actually be a very big hint that on 'a magical level' there is virtually no difference between a real dragon and a Targaryen. Else we would have to believe that the subconscious mind of a prophetic dreamer re-imagines or symbolizes certain people for some occult reason as dragons - and others not. That makes little sense to me.

If Daemon II Blackfyre or Daeron the Drunk had any magical prophetic powers which manifest in dreams, there is also no reason to assume that they would consciously symbolize Egg or Baelor as literal dragons - since they would have then seen their real faces behind the dragon disguise in their dreams. But there is also no reason that 'some god' sends them cryptic visions symbolizing some people as dragons, either, which makes it very likely that the specific nature of Targaryen 'prophecy magic' causes them to picture their own kind in visions as literal dragons.

And that, in turn, could be a hint that they have actual, literal 'dragon blood', which may both the root of their innate magic as well as the answer why they would see themselves as dragons in their dreams.

The idea that the presence of heraldry in Westeros would cause people to see various nobles symbolized by the animals on their banner is ridiculous to me.

We should also keep in mind that Daenerys seems to have had 'real dragon dreams' in the sense that she apparently dreamed of literal dragons not symbolizing Targaryens when she dreamed of a dragon in AGoT - she even dreamed of her Targaryen ancestors in human flesh and blood...

[Mithras]

We should also keep in mind that Daenerys seems to have had 'real dragon dreams' in the sense that she apparently dreamed of literal dragons not symbolizing Targaryens when she dreamed of a dragon in AGoT - she even dreamed of her Targaryen ancestors in human flesh and blood...

Many people say that she dreamed Drogon in AGoT but I don't agree with that. In the dreams, she gave birth to a dragon that burned Viserys and I think that is the inner self of Dany. She hatched as a metaphoric dragon just like Egg was said to do in Whitewalls.

[Mithras]

A sure way to doom... So trying to prevent a prophecy is a sure way to make it work, but does that mean that taking action to fulfill a prophecy can be a way to avert it? - Hm... probably not. (I'm curious because Rhaegar tried to fulfill a prophecy and Melisandre is trying hard to make Stannis AAR even though she genuinely believes Stannis is AA.) Or does it simply mean, if you want to take actions to fulfill a prophecy, you will necessarily misinterpret it because your very effort shows you don't understand how the whole thing works? (Poor Mel.)

I think there are two options as you said. When people try to fulfill a prophecy by taking actions to reach that end, they will either reach that end but the way to that end will be completely unexpected to them and their pricks will be bitten in the process (similar to what happened to Rhaegar). Or those people will have a seriously wrong interpretation of the prophecy they are trying to fulfill (as in the case of Mel) and their pricks will be bitten eventually. But their actions might lead to the true fulfillment of the prophecy in a way they never anticipated.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Prophecy is like a three blade sword .Your interpretation ,my interpretation and the true interpretation . Dreams, maester Luwin said ",One remembers the one dream that came true not the thousands that didn't."