Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.92

Recommended Posts

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aerys wasn't holding Lyanna, far from it, he put her somewhere the fighters wouldn't know where she was. If Aerys was involve she would have returned with Rhaegar. If they can break there vows to their king once they can do it again.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps this mistrust is overstated. As you note the KG serve the King, if Aerys did not trust Rhaegar he could have recalled the KG. He didn't, might be he trusts Rhaegar a little. Aery's is the King, he can name a new heir and Crown Prince. He didn't, might be he trusts Rhaegar more than some people think.

I think the 3 KG at the ToJ remain loyal to their vows and oaths.

Well maybe, but:

The mad king is essentially Howard Hughes. So I work from that starting point. That aside, I feel like he might have lost control of the KG near the end, that the three survivors (not including Barry and Jamie) were not following his orders. Many like to cite Hightower, but even he has to have a breaking point, I'm sure, and since the Hightowers place such a high value on knowledge and books that maybe Rhaegar showed him something that changed his mind.

I've argued that Rhaegar does not have authority over Dayne and Whent, but if they are his personal body guard, which again I disagree with, then I feel like they also were supposed to come back with Rhaegar and he told them to stay, defying Aerys.

These feel like parts to a mutiny. Many counter this with how highyl Ned regards the three KG, but he couldn't have known the internal politics of the KG.

BQ87:

I see what you're saying now. I'm just not sure if I agree 100% Would Cat be more likely to love Jon had she known he wasn't Ned's bastard; maybe yes. I think she'd still do her best to make sure he could never inherit WF. Still maybe encourage him to take the black, for instance.

I doubt it, especially if Ned conveyed his greater importance. She'd know he was never meant for WF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt it, especially if Ned conveyed his greater importance. She'd know he was never meant for WF.

You mean prophetic importance? That all depends on if Ned believed those things and if Lyanna even told him about those prophecies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean prophetic importance? That all depends on if Ned believed those things and if Lyanna even told him about those prophecies.

I somehow doubt that a man like Ned Stark would go in for that kind of thing. He said it himself...he's a soldier. Even if he did know of the prophecies, I doubt he would take them seriously. As we can see, he treated Jon like a son...nothing more, nothing less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well yeah...

Ok so in this parallel universe where 1) Lyanna told Ned about the prophecies 2) Ned Stark believed those things 3) Where Ned told Cat that Jon was Lyanna's and not his then ....maybe Cat would not be so hostile toward Jon. lol. So many "ifs!"

I somehow doubt that a man like Ned Stark would go in for that kind of thing. He said it himself...he's a soldier. Even if he did know of the prophecies, I doubt he would take them seriously. As we can see, he treated Jon like a son...nothing more, nothing less.

And yes, I agree with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I somehow doubt that a man like Ned Stark would go in for that kind of thing. He said it himself...he's a soldier. Even if he did know of the prophecies, I doubt he would take them seriously. As we can see, he treated Jon like a son...nothing more, nothing less.

I don't disagree. I'm just saying I don't think he handled it correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so in this parallel universe where 1) Lyanna told Ned about the prophecies 2) Ned Stark believed those things 3) Where Ned told Cat that Jon was Lyanna's and not his then ....maybe Cat would not be so hostile toward Jon. lol. So many "ifs!"

And yes, I agree with that.

Well more so he just tells her Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's

Although I can see her freaking out and saying his presence endangers her kids, so she hates him for that....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree. I'm just saying I don't think he handled it correctly.

I think he handled it the only way he could without risking Jon and his family's life in the process. He could have dropped him off at some random person's house and never bothered with him again, but he kept the promise to his sister. He put his marriage in jeopardy and ruined his pristine reputation in order to save Jon's life, and I doubt that Jon will see anything but the sacrifice Ned made for him when he finds out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he handled it the only way he could without risking Jon and his family's life in the process.

Right. Ned loves Cat, yes. But he cannot trust her with this secret because he doesn't know what she would do if push came to shove. If it came down to Robb or Jon (Lyanna's son, if she knew)...Ned simply can't take the risk that Cat would choose Robb (and I'd argue that even knowing everything, Cat would absolutely choose Robb)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right. Ned loves Cat, yes. But he cannot trust her with this secret because he doesn't know what she would do if push came to shove. If it came down to Robb or Jon (Lyanna's son, if she knew)...Ned simply can't take the risk that Cat would choose Robb (and I'd argue that even knowing everything, Cat would absolutely choose Robb)

Some love......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going by Robbs manner regarding old Nans tales, it seems that even in the north, (at this point), they are a little cynical about such things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the "cat would hate Jon less if he wasn't Ned's son";I think it would be true. But then if things got real (after Neds death), I bet Cat would send a letter too KL: Hey Tywin, I have a legit heir of the targaryens here (as far as everyone would know at that point, since (f)Aegon would come up later), want to trade him for my 2 daughters still in KL? (At least, that was what everyone knew at that point).



I have little doubt she wouldn't do it. Look at her from the point that Ned's head dropped. Her every move was to get her girls back. She released Jamie (the Kingslayer!) and trusted him on his word that he would bring her daughters back. She was desperate at that time and she would've easily given up her (bastard) nephew for that.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the "cat would hate Jon less if he wasn't Ned's son";I think it would be true. But then if things got real (after Neds death), I bet Cat would send a letter too KL: Hey Tywin, I have a legit heir of the targaryens here (as far as everyone would know at that point, since (f)Aegon would come up later), want to trade him for my 2 daughters still in KL? (At least, that was what everyone knew at that point).

I have little doubt she wouldn't do it. Look at her from the point that Ned's head dropped. Her every move was to get her girls back. She released Jamie (the Kingslayer!) and trusted him on his word that he would bring her daughters back. She was desperate at that time and she would've easily given up her (bastard) nephew for that.

If she had known the true, then she would know Jon is Ned's nephew, and even legitimate if the allegations of L and R being married are correct. I doubt she would do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she had known the true, then she would know Jon is Ned's nephew, and even legitimate if the allegations of L and R being married are correct. I doubt she would do it.

I'd like to believe that, but she does make a few irrational choices (mainly Jamie)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to believe that, but she does make a few irrational choices (mainly Jamie)

But Jaime is an adult and a captive. If she had known the truth, then I suppose she would have seen Jon as a child and care about him a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×