R+L=J v.92

[J. Stargaryen]

Since I'm about to leave for a while, and this thread has reached it's desirable limit of 400 posts, I went ahead and opened R+L=J v.93.

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks 😀

[Arlan of Pennytree]

What? It has been implied by a lot of fans that he feared Rhaegar might be laying the ground work to declare himself. Aerys was clearly concerned with what could happen, so accompanied them, leaving the Red Keep for the first time since the Defiance at Duskendale. That's trust? Go read Griff's first chapter and decide for yourself.

Nope. Giving orders to follow someone else's orders is a normal thing. Hypothetically, it would be disobeying orders if Aerys told the two of them they must always escort Rhaegar where ever he goes, and instead they stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders.

And I don't think he gave Jamie an order as much as he denied his request. Telling Jamie he can't take him his hardly an order.

It's stated pretty clearly in the books as well, isn't it? I know it's in there somewhere, about the tourney ay Harrenhal, and Aerys not trusting Rhaegar, thinking it is something akin to the tourney/wedding at Whitewalls. . .

I think it's pretty obvious of the mistrust between them.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, we reference that one a lot too. It is loaded with great stuff. :)

I wonder if the reference Unmasked Lurker was referring to is actually the comparison of ASoIaF to the WotR? I mean GRRM's acquiescence that the two are related certainly seems to point to ASoIaF being an actual war, or series of wars/battles as the WoTR was. That taken with the comments you quoted on Fire and Ice lend to a multi faceted interpretation of the Song. He's quite specific that it goes beyond dragons and the Wall isn't he?

And yeah, I think the NIFFF interview refines his hero ethos. That is-- as he said in the Adria interview, everyone can be the hero in their own story, but he later refined that to not one single person being THE hero. At NIFFF he mentions that everyone has the potential to be a hero, just some people deploy it better than others, and we also learn that the concept of THE hero (whether it's Superman or Frodo Baggins) seems quite boring to him. I think the idea of heroic actions from everyday people is what fascinates him about writing people and is what he spent a lot of time talking about at in that interview.

Well like you said and Martin said there is more to the title than just the surface. Of course the wall and dragons are one aspect. But if you look at what he says about fire and ice you also get what is known as the human condition and the duality of man/woman. Martin may as well have said well the title is more complex than that. But I have no doubt it is about many things. I kind of laugh when people refer too Jon or anyone as the Song of ice and fire, because when I look at it his definition of Ice and fire it basically applies to all the characters.

The Starks are said to be Ice but are the Starks really just betrayal, revenge and cold inhumanity? Well clearly that's them. And the Targaryens are all about love? I don't think so, though I admit Dany has a heavy sort of love theme, she also has that sort of you killed 163 little kids and going to fucking pay for it theme as well.

Another theme of Ice and fire that I have noticed is that fire is sometimes called the life. Well it's sort of true in the books but what fire really does is sustain life rather than lets say create it. People say Ice preserves which is true but in every case I can find ice preserves the dead. Now of course both can kill with the best of them and have other uses but those were just two aspects I looked at.

In reference to Rhaegar' quote I think it's like the title, it's more complex than just the statment.

Can it reference a war? Of course it can, we already have a war of ice and fire and as we now Martin likes to repeat the past. But also the statement is based on TPTWP prophecy, the Prince of course is rather heavily associated with fire, and clearly the Others will be a problem, one day, in the future, at some point.

Can it be a person? Of course it can, as I mentioned about his themes for ice and fire can be applied to the nature of man and are all central themes to the book.

As for the hero, yes he has refined his statement but I kind of get why. He does not like the word hero, heroic is just fine but hero is to black and white for him. I think I have a good example. Hercules the legendary hero once cleaned out a stable in a great heroic act of heroism. It consisted of him doing something amazing and heroic. Jon once cleaned out a stable it consisted of him shoveling horse shit all day after which he stank of horse shit and sweat and none of the black brothers would sit near him and they called him the Stinky Stewart for the rest of the week.

Of what Martin said about Ice and fire one word sticks out to me, betrayal. Major them in the books. It comes in all shapes and sizes and is everywhere in the books. Like Lyanna and Rhaegar, they both betrayed their families if the theory is correct about them running off together. Freedom or Love vs. obligation, they made a choice. Lots of people tend to think they had a right to do what they did, it's there lives and all that. But we don't live in that world and in that world breaking your duties and obligations to your family is a betrayal.

Two things I take into account about Ice and Fire is Martin' word association, the first word he thought of for fire was love and the first for Ice was betrayal. It's just simple word association and a very broad theme but I do look at those more than the others.

Another thing and this may seem silly to some but Martin in fact loves major battles, there will be an Ice and fire shoot out, I have no doubt about that.

One of the reasons I brought up Jaime' dream was of course the use of water which is my own theory and the live rock. But really it was about certain themes. The weirwood stump, the cold, the fire the life, Rhaegar armored in Snow, Jaime is suppose to defend his children, the symbolic nature of a man and woman fighting against the cold shades. But in that dream there are two burning swords. One goes out but really the idea given is not to let them go out. 12 Shades as well I look at. What is Jaime' job, what is he suppose to have done and be doing, what is his greatest guilt? Now even though the made king was crazy and going to kill everyone, Jaime still betrayed him. The unintended consequence was the death of the children, much like the unintended consequence for Rhaegar and Lyanna was war. The question that remains is why? Love? Love is sweet. The Prophecy? Well the excuse that Jaime had was the population of KL. Pretty damn good reason. So R+L will probably come down to why they did it and I tend to believe even like Jaime' choice it will be far more complex than we are led to believe. It's common to judge the two one way or another, but no matter how much the Starks are loved the Wolf had no right to Judge the Lion. That's another theme with Martin don't be so quick to judge at least not until you know the whole story.

[Alia of the knife]

Well like you said and Martin said there is more to the title than just the surface. Of course the wall and dragons are one aspect. But if you look at what he says about fire and ice you also get what is known as the human condition and the duality of man/woman. Martin may as well have said well the title is more complex than that. But I have no doubt it is about many things. I kind of laugh when people refer too Jon or anyone as the Song of ice and fire, because when I look at it his definition of Ice and fire it basically applies to all the characters.

The Starks are said to be Ice but are the Starks really just betrayal, revenge and cold inhumanity? Well clearly that's them. And the Targaryens are all about love? I don't think so, though I admit Dany has a heavy sort of love theme, she also has that sort of you killed 163 little kids and going to fucking pay for it theme as well.

Another theme of Ice and fire that I have noticed is that fire is sometimes called the life. Well it's sort of true in the books but what fire really does is sustain life rather than lets say create it. People say Ice preserves which is true but in every case I can find ice preserves the dead. Now of course both can kill with the best of them and have other uses but those were just two aspects I looked at.

In reference to Rhaegar' quote I think it's like the title, it's more complex than just the statment.

Can it reference a war? Of course it can, we already have a war of ice and fire and as we now Martin likes to repeat the past. But also the statement is based on TPTWP prophecy, the Prince of course is rather heavily associated with fire, and clearly the Others will be a problem, one day, in the future, at some point.

Can it be a person? Of course it can, as I mentioned about his themes for ice and fire can be applied to the nature of man and are all central themes to the book.

As for the hero, yes he has refined his statement but I kind of get why. He does not like the word hero, heroic is just fine but hero is to black and white for him. I think I have a good example. Hercules the legendary hero once cleaned out a stable in a great heroic act of heroism. It consisted of him doing something amazing and heroic. Jon once cleaned out a stable it consisted of him shoveling horse shit all day after which he stank of horse shit and sweat and none of the black brothers would sit near him and they called him the Stinky Stewart for the rest of the week.

Of what Martin said about Ice and fire one word sticks out to me, betrayal. Major them in the books. It comes in all shapes and sizes and is everywhere in the books. Like Lyanna and Rhaegar, they both betrayed their families if the theory is correct about them running off together. Freedom or Love vs. obligation, they made a choice. Lots of people tend to think they had a right to do what they did, it's there lives and all that. But we don't live in that world and in that world breaking your duties and obligations to your family is a betrayal.

Two things I take into account about Ice and Fire is Martin' word association, the first word he thought of for fire was love and the first for Ice was betrayal. It's just simple word association and a very broad theme but I do look at those more than the others.

Another thing and this may seem silly to some but Martin in fact loves major battles, there will be an Ice and fire shoot out, I have no doubt about that.

One of the reasons I brought up Jaime' dream was of course the use of water which is my own theory and the live rock. But really it was about certain themes. The weirwood stump, the cold, the fire the life, Rhaegar armored in Snow, Jaime is suppose to defend his children, the symbolic nature of a man and woman fighting against the cold shades. But in that dream there are two burning swords. One goes out but really the idea given is not to let them go out. 12 Shades as well I look at. What is Jaime' job, what is he suppose to have done and be doing, what is his greatest guilt? Now even though the made king was crazy and going to kill everyone, Jaime still betrayed him. The unintended consequence was the death of the children, much like the unintended consequence for Rhaegar and Lyanna was war. The question that remains is why? Love? Love is sweet. The Prophecy? Well the excuse that Jaime had was the population of KL. Pretty damn good reason. So R+L will probably come down to why they did it and I tend to believe even like Jaime' choice it will be far more complex than we are led to believe. It's common to judge the two one way or another, but no matter how much the Starks are loved the Wolf had no right to Judge the Lion. That's another theme with Martin don't be so quick to judge at least not until you know the whole story.

And Ice also has its own burn.

[BearQueen87]

*internal conflict over which thread we are using!*

[Alia of the knife]

Hums "twilight zone" theme

[Ser Creighton]

And Ice also has its own burn.

Yes it does in more ways that one.

Interesting thing I came across in that Jaime chapter that I had forgotten about. The fever dream theme, we know that gets thrown in the books. But in Swords both Jaime and Jon are having fever dreams. But in the chapter I mention the ruby ford, Harrenhal, the tourney, Rhaegar, Ned Starks heart tree, but really what is a fever dream? Well Martin actually told us. When Jaime woke from his dream on the stump.

“Heart pounding, he jerked awake, and found himself in starry darkness amidst a grove of trees. He could taste bile in his mouth, and he was shivering with sweat, hot and cold at once.”

“Qyburn felt his brow. “You still have a touch of fever.”

“A fever dream.” Jaime reached up.”

Fevers hot and cold together, I wonder why they are so important?

Funny thing about Jaime, if you look at R+L=J, he may actually have given us more information on the events around Jon then any single character in the book. Ser Jaime Lannister of the KG sworn to protect the King and his family. His greatest regret, wonder how his story will come full circle?

*internal conflict over which thread we are using!*

When this thread is done this thread is done no sooner and no later. The other thread is only a pretender to the true pinned thread. This cycle has not ended, tis false cycle that has begone, I better get my dragons and silver whig no FR+L=J thread is going to take this pinned spot till it is time. We are still putting an F in front of anything we think is fake right? If that fake thread wants a war it is going to get a war. I AM THE POSTER THAT WAS PROMISED, THE LAST POSTER, THE BREAKER THEORIES, AND FATHER OF FLAME WARS, THE SILVER LAD, AND I BRING FIRE AND USUALLY HOTDOGS AND MARSHMALLOWS CAUSE YOU KNOW CAMP FIRE, AIN'T NO POSTER LIKE ME, CEPT ME.

Something tells me this war will not end with a win for 92.

[BearQueen87]

When this thread is done this thread is done no sooner and no later. The other thread is only a pretender to the true pinned thread. This cycle has not ended, tis false cycle that has begone, I better get my dragons and silver whig no FR+L=J thread is going to take this pinned spot till it is time. We are still putting an F in front of anything we think is fake right? If that fake thread wants a war it is going to get a war. I AM THE POSTER THAT WAS PROMISED, THE LAST POSTER, THE BREAKER THEORIES, AND FATHER OF FLAME WARS, THE SILVER LAD, AND I BRING FIRE AND USUALLY HOTDOGS AND MARSHMALLOWS CAUSE YOU KNOW CAMP FIRE, AIN'T NO POSTER LIKE ME, CEPT ME.

Something tells me this war will not end with a win for 92.

*applause*