R+L=J v.92

[BearQueen87]

There is a huge argument against Aerys knowing anything at all about Lyanna. What does Aerys do with Jaime, with Elia? He holds them hostage to ensure the comport of Tywin and Dorne. Where does he hold them? In the Red Keep, close at hand. Would Lyanna make a good hostage during the rebellion? Certainly. If Aerys knew about Lyanna, and could get ahold of her she would be in the Red Keep and Ned would have stayed out of the war.

Don't jump to the conclusion that many do, that Brandon or Rickard or any of the retinue mentioned Lyanna, it is not supported. All we know is that Brandon demanded that Rhaegar come out and die, absolutely no mention of Lyanna.

Yeah that's strange. No "show me my sister" "give me back my sister"

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree.. However, I think you need to factor King Aerys into the discussion. I am of a small minority that believes that Aerys was aware of the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage and did not object. Aerys and Rhaella were married because of believe in tptwp prophecy. Its possible that Rhaegar could have convinced Aerys that the same prophecy required him to take a second wife.

I agree with the points MntLion makes and would add another thought. If Aerys really approved of the marriage between R&L, they would not have needed to run away together. They could have stayed in KL and gotten married there. The main reason, perhaps only reason, that I can see to go into hiding as they did was to wait until Lyanna had a baby so that the marriage was less likely to be subject to any objection from Aerys. We know that Rhaegar planned to return to KL--he tells Jaime. What do we think he was waiting for all this time while he was away? He did not originally hide as a result of the war--the war comes later. He was waiting to have the baby in hand. Otherwise, Lyanna's pregnancy is much safer in KL than at ToJ if Aerys is on board with the whole plan.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is a huge argument against Aerys knowing anything at all about Lyanna. What does Aerys do with Jaime, with Elia? He holds them hostage to ensure the comport of Tywin and Dorne. Where does he hold them? In the Red Keep, close at hand. Would Lyanna make a good hostage during the rebellion? Certainly. If Aerys knew about Lyanna, and could get ahold of her she would be in the Red Keep and Ned would have stayed out of the war.

Don't jump to the conclusion that many do, that Brandon or Rickard or any of the retinue mentioned Lyanna, it is not supported. All we know is that Brandon demanded that Rhaegar come out and die, absolutely no mention of Lyanna.

MtnLion: questions for you. Yes, Brandon may not mention Lyanna--but wouldn't Brandon assume that Aerys knew Rhaegar went off with Lyanna? What else could his ranting be about? While we don't know exactly what Aerys knew, can't we safely assume that he knew that Rhaegar went off with Lyanna? Otherwise, wouldn't Brandon's statements be totally out of context?

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

While it seems that Aerys did not trust Rhaegar 100%, he trusted Rhaegar more than enough to order his Lord Commander to search Rhaegar, make sure that Rhaegar returned to KL, and to allow Rhaegar to take command of the troops.

Also, many lords were loyal to Aerys during the Rebellion. Many had already responded to Aerys' summons, just look at the battles against Robert at Summerhal and Ashford, and the Siege at Storm's End. Rhaegar and his possible influence had nothing to do with the armies involved in those instances.

Well I think the correct statement is that Aerys trusted no one completely. Maybe I was over stating that fact, but we know from Jamie's last interaction that Rhaegar was going to make changes, however you what to interpret that.

And I wasn't saying there wasn't anyone else supporting Aerys, just that it was starting to diminish.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I agree with this, but I think it is even more fundamental than that. If Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, then they are married. The HS may have a problem with it, but we have no evidence that the HS would be able to say it is not a marriage. For example, with Crastor, people complain about the incest but don't even really mention the polygamy. But more important, no one suggests these were not actual marriages. So given that Targs have had multiple wives in the past (big clue from GRRM) and recent incestuous marriages (which the Faith seem to hate more than polygamy), who can stop R&L from getting married? They get married (old gods style, traveling septon, both, whatever) and then have a child. If the 3 come back to KL together, who will tell Rhaegar that he is not really married to Lyanna? No one would even try to assert that he is not married to Lyanna under those circumstances.

I don't think you can compare those two. Crastor was not part of the seven kingdoms.

[BearQueen87]

Well I think the correct statement is that Aerys trusted no one completely. Maybe I was over stating that fact, but we know from Jamie's last interaction that Rhaegar was going to make changes, however you what to interpret that.

And I wasn't saying there wasn't anyone else supporting Aerys, just that it was starting to diminish.

Is it still paranoia if the things you worry about are true? lol

Aerys might have had suspicions but they weren't strong enough for him to not reach out for his son when the war began to turn. But I think you pretty much answered the question: Aerys doesn't trust anyone completely. But whatever his feelings toward Rhaegar, Aerys asks him to lead the army.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't think you can compare those two. Crastor was not part of the seven kingdoms.

But Crastor follows the old gods and marriages under the old gods (not just the Faith) are accepted as marriages in Westeros. So even if he is not part of the 7 kingdoms, his behavior is relevant to how people in the 7 kingdoms view the institution of marriage based on how people from the 7 kingdoms talk about his marriages.

[BearQueen87]

But Crastor follows the old gods and marriages under the old gods (not just the Faith) are accepted as marriages in Westeros. So even if he is not part of the 7 kingdoms, his behavior is relevant to how people in the 7 kingdoms view the institution of marriage based on how people from the 7 kingdoms talk about his marriages.

Throw in Ygon Oldfather and his 17 wives. No one makes mention of it except to say that he as 17 wives.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Is it still paranoia if the things you worry about are true? lol

Aerys might have had suspicions but they weren't strong enough for him to not reach out for his son when the war began to turn. But I think you pretty much answered the question: Aerys doesn't trust anyone completely. But whatever his feelings toward Rhaegar, Aerys asks him to lead the army.

What if the paranoia caused it Rhaegar's actions? Lol, what a cluster fuck.

I feel like we are beating a dead horse again, but just one counter example: Roose and Ramsay. Their natures and relationship is completely different, but Roose arguably does not trust Ramsay.

Also, MtnLion and Lurker are correct. I doubt Aerys knew. I wonder though, if Brandon had just asked for Lyanna and not Rhaegar's death, and had everything explained, would everyone have been able to live happily ever after?

[MtnLion]

But Crastor follows the old gods and marriages under the old gods (not just the Faith) are accepted as marriages in Westeros. So even if he is not part of the 7 kingdoms, his behavior is relevant to how people in the 7 kingdoms view the institution of marriage based on how people from the 7 kingdoms talk about his marriages.

Relevant is how the Targaryens view marriages, and they have had incestuous and plural marriages in the past. Jorah suggests that Daenerys can have multiple husbands, based upon prior precedance. The only thing that the church of the seven objected to was incestuous marriages, but the Aerys and Rhaella were married as brother and sister. So, apparently the church has no say in what the Targaryens choose to consider a valid marriage. Or, perhaps you have found where the church objected to a Targaryen marriage? To a plural Targaryen marriage? To an incestuous Targaryen marriage?

[BearQueen87]

Also, MtnLion and Lurker are correct. I doubt Aerys knew. I wonder though, if Brandon had just asked for Lyanna and not Rhaegar's death, and had everything explained, would everyone have been able to live happily ever after?

I don't think Aerys knew either, though I think father and son had a very long talk when Rhaegar got back to KL. Aerys would obviously have questions, though I think Rhaegar tried to keep his own intentions out of it, obviously.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I wonder though, if Brandon had just asked for Lyanna and not Rhaegar's death, and had everything explained, would everyone have been able to live happily ever after?

The point is that Brandon was not going to be satisfied with just getting Lyanna back. Rhaegar already defiled her in Brandon's eyes. Brandon would only be satisfied with revenge over Rhaegar for kidnapping his sister and humiliating the Starks--in his view. So if all Brandon wanted was to try to get Lyanna back--then we have a completely different story--not ASOIAF.

[MtnLion]

MtnLion: questions for you. Yes, Brandon may not mention Lyanna--but wouldn't Brandon assume that Aerys knew Rhaegar went off with Lyanna? What else could his ranting be about? While we don't know exactly what Aerys knew, can't we safely assume that he knew that Rhaegar went off with Lyanna? Otherwise, wouldn't Brandon's statements be totally out of context?

It does not seem that Aerys was worried about the reason for Brandon's treason. He only worried that House Stark would continue the treason, and he wanted to abolish House Stark. Whatever thoughts Aerys had, he summoned Brandon's father, Rickard, to answer for Brandon's treason. Killed both father and son, then sent for Ned and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn.

[Lonin]

I agree with the points MntLion makes and would add another thought. If Aerys really approved of the marriage between R&L, they would not have needed to run away together. They could have stayed in KL and gotten married there. The main reason, perhaps only reason, that I can see to go into hiding as they did was to wait until Lyanna had a baby so that the marriage was less likely to be subject to any objection from Aerys. We know that Rhaegar planned to return to KL--he tells Jaime. What do we think he was waiting for all this time while he was away? He did not originally hide as a result of the war--the war comes later. He was waiting to have the baby in hand. Otherwise, Lyanna's pregnancy is much safer in KL than at ToJ if Aerys is on board with the whole plan.

Note that I didn't say Aerys approved, only that he didn't object, I am not saying that Rhaegar involved Aerys in pre-approval for his actions.. only that after it was done, that Aerys didn't object. The rebellion happens later. Rhaegar didn't anticipate a rebellion - eventually he was going to have to return with Lyanna to K/L. Rhaegar is smart enough to realize that he should not appear defiant to his father the King. IMO it makes since for Rhaegar to keep the king somewhat informed. Of course, the rebellion changes everything..

[UnmaskedLurker]

Relevant is how the Targaryens view marriages, and they have had incestuous and plural marriages in the past. Jorah suggests that Daenerys can have multiple husbands, based upon prior precedance. The only thing that the church of the seven objected to was incestuous marriages, but the Aerys and Rhaella were married as brother and sister. So, apparently the church has no say in what the Targaryens choose to consider a valid marriage. Or, perhaps you have found where the church objected to a Targaryen marriage? To a plural Targaryen marriage? To an incestuous Targaryen marriage?

I did not think we disagreed on these issues. Of course the primary issue is the Targ plural marriage history and the lack of evidence that polygamy was ever outlawed and the behavior of Targs to marry whomever they pleased (including sisters--regardless of objections from the Faith). I agree with all of your points and believe they are the best clues we have that R&L were married.

I was merely responding to the claim that because Targs have not had plural marriages for centuries and the Faith disapproves and the populous disapproves, that Rhaegar could not have married Lyanna. I was making a supplemental point that on Westeros, when someone gets married--even a polygamous marriage--people agree that it is a marriage. We have the example of Crastor and Ygon Oldfather. Their plural marriages are merely supplemental evidence to prove that if R&L went off and got married, no one would be able to say they were not married. This point is simply complementary to your point, not a substitute for your point regarding prior Targ marriages.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It does not seem that Aerys was worried about the reason for Brandon's treason. He only worried that House Stark would continue the treason, and he wanted to abolish House Stark. Whatever thoughts Aerys had, he summoned Brandon's father, Rickard, to answer for Brandon's treason. Killed both father and son, then sent for Ned and Robert's heads from Jon Arryn.

I agree. We really don't know what Aerys knew and it was not really relevant to his actions. He would have reacted identically no matter what he knew about Lyanna. I agree with you that it was the treason that concerned him. The reason behind the treason was not relevant to him.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

But Crastor follows the old gods and marriages under the old gods (not just the Faith) are accepted as marriages in Westeros. So even if he is not part of the 7 kingdoms, his behavior is relevant to how people in the 7 kingdoms view the institution of marriage based on how people from the 7 kingdoms talk about his marriages.

Yeah, but he comes from a reign with no laws, and his old god might not be the Starks' old god (Oh the implications). Where in contrast, 7 kingdoms has laws, :lmao: , and when enforced, would not allow Crastor's life style.

Wasn't polygamy frowned upon even before the Targs, just not outlawed?

[MtnLion]

I did not think we disagreed on these issues. Of course the primary issue is the Targ plural marriage history and the lack of evidence that polygamy was ever outlawed and the behavior of Targs to marry whomever they pleased (including sisters--regardless of objections from the Faith). I agree with all of your points and believe they are the best clues we have that R&L were married.

I was merely responding to the claim that because Targs have not had plural marriages for centuries and the Faith disapproves and the populous disapproves, that Rhaegar could not have married Lyanna. I was making a supplemental point that on Westeros, when someone gets married--even a polygamous marriage--people agree that it is a marriage. We have the example of Crastor and Ygon Oldfather. Their plural marriages are merely supplemental evidence to prove that if R&L went off and got married, no one would be able to say they were not married. This point is simply complementary to your point, not a substitute for your point regarding prior Targ marriages.

(I think I meant to respond to someone else.) We know that Craster practiced bigamy and incest. The incest was an affront to the old gods and the new. The big thing that needs to be addressed is why Rhaella and Aerys were wed, and the church did not object. Until there is some sense is made of that, there is no reason to suspect that bigamy would be objected to by the churches, old or new.

Yeah, but he comes from a reign with no laws, and his old god might not be the Starks' old god (Oh the implications). Where in contrast, 7 kingdoms has laws, :lmao: , and when enforced, would not allow Crastor's life style.

Wasn't polygamy frowned upon even before the Targs, just not outlawed?

Same-O Same-O, explain why the church tolerated incest, but would object to Rhaegar's second wife.

Note that I didn't say Aerys approved, only that he didn't object, I am not saying that Rhaegar involved Aerys in pre-approval for his actions.. only that after it was done, that Aerys didn't object. The rebellion happens later. Rhaegar didn't anticipate a rebellion - eventually he was going to have to return with Lyanna to K/L. Rhaegar is smart enough to realize that he should not appear defiant to his father the King. IMO it makes since for Rhaegar to keep the king somewhat informed. Of course, the rebellion changes everything..

I disagree. Lyanna is a prime hostage, and if Aerys knew about her she is going to be close at hand to use against Ned and Robert, both.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, but he comes from a reign with no laws, and his old god might not be the Starks' old god (Oh the implications). Where in contrast, 7 kingdoms has laws, :lmao: , and when enforced, would not allow Crastor's life style.

Wasn't polygamy frowned upon even before the Targs, just not outlawed?

I think you answer your own question--not outlawed. The point is that Crastor might be subject to penalty for his behavior--but no one would say he was not married to all these women. Same with Ygon Oldfather. Maybe there would be sanctions, but the marriage does not get annulled solely on the charge of polygamy. So if polygamy is frowned upon--but not outlawed--isn't Rhaegar's behavior understandable. If he is going to marry Lyanna and there is risk of fallout from his father and other important people in Westeros--marry in secret and wait until they have a baby to bring back with them. What else could explain why they stayed in hiding so long--when we know Rhaegar plans to return to KL at some point?

[UnmaskedLurker]

I disagree. Lyanna is a prime hostage, and if Aerys knew about her she is going to be close at hand to use against Ned and Robert, both.

Just to play devils' advocate for a moment--isn't is possible that Aerys knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar's plans (and approves)--he just does not know where she is? As I write it out, it kind of answer itself, I suppose. If Aerys approved, he likely (but perhaps not definitely) would have been in on the location. More to the point, the likelihood that Aerys would not approve is the best explanation for why they are in hiding at all.