R+L=J v.92

[MtnLion]

Just to play devils' advocate for a moment--isn't is possible that Aerys knows about Lyanna and Rhaegar's plans (and approves)--he just does not know where she is? As I write it out, it kind of answer itself, I suppose. If Aerys approved, he likely (but perhaps not definitely) would have been in on the location. More to the point, the likelihood that Aerys would not approve is the best explanation for why they are in hiding at all.

Correct, they are in hiding from Aerys, Starks, and Baratheons until fait accompli. They come out of hiding with a new heir, and no one is going to object, except maybe Robert and he can be bought off pretty cheaply with his choice of whorehouse.

[Lonin]

I disagree. Lyanna is a prime hostage, and if Aerys knew about her she is going to be close at hand to use against Ned and Robert, both.

Lyanna is a prime hostage? Like Brandon Stark? Like Lord Rickard Stark? If he had wanted Stark hostages he had two. Aerys seems interested in keeping his allies motivated by keeping their family members close. In general female hostages don't seem that valuable in asoiaf.

[MtnLion]

Lyanna is a prime hostage? Like Brandon Stark? Like Lord Rickard Stark? If he had wanted Stark hostages he had two. Aerys seems interested in keeping his allies motivated by keeping their family members close. In general female hostages don't seem that valuable in asoiaf.

Like, Elia, perhaps?

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I think you answer your own question--not outlawed. The point is that Crastor might be subject to penalty for his behavior--but no one would say he was not married to all these women. Same with Ygon Oldfather. Maybe there would be sanctions, but the marriage does not get annulled solely on the charge of polygamy. So if polygamy is frowned upon--but not outlawed--isn't Rhaegar's behavior understandable. If he is going to marry Lyanna and there is risk of fallout from his father and other important people in Westeros--marry in secret and wait until they have a baby to bring back with them. What else could explain why they stayed in hiding so long--when we know Rhaegar plans to return to KL at some point?

I get the point you're making, and don't disagree. I just find Crastor to be a bad comparison because you're taking the crowned prince in one country and comparing him to a scumbag in a wasteland with no laws. I get that even if the law applied to Crastor that he wouldn't be prevented from taking multiple wives. I just don't think the faith would accept marrying your daughters. You know, incest.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What if the paranoia caused it Rhaegar's actions? Lol, what a cluster fuck.

Though it seems Aerys had always had a little bit of madness in him, it seems he was sane enough at first (the beginning of his reign would not have been promising if he had been crazy from the start). I think that the Defiance at Duskendale triggered his paranoia, and thus also his madness to come out in the open. That then eventually triggered Rhaegar to think about taking action against Aerys, which in turn caused Aerys to start mistrusting his own son.

It's a downwards spiral...

[BearQueen87]

I get the point you're making, and don't disagree. I just find Crastor to be a bad comparison because you're taking the crowned prince in one country and comparing him to a scumbag in a wasteland with no laws. I get that even if the law applied to Crastor that he wouldn't be prevented from taking multiple wives. I just don't think the faith would accept marrying your daughters. You know, incest.

But again, you've answered the problem. He's the Crown Prince; and Aerys and Rhaella were King/Queen. Even if the Faith isn't so keen on incest, nothing stops Jaehaerys from ordering Aerys and Rhaella to marry.

ETA: marrying your daughter might bring about heated arguments, but it's really neither here nor there. The question really comes back to polygamy. And the Faith isn't going to make waves.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Correct, they are in hiding from Aerys, Starks, and Baratheons until fait accompli. They come out of hiding with a new heir, and no one is going to object, except maybe Robert and he can be bought off pretty cheaply with his choice of whorehouse.

I think Dorne would be pissed....especially if Jon would have been placed before Aegon.

Lyanna is a prime hostage? Like Brandon Stark? Like Lord Rickard Stark? If he had wanted Stark hostages he had two. Aerys seems interested in keeping his allies motivated by keeping their family members close. In general female hostages don't seem that valuable in asoiaf.

Like, Elia, perhaps?

Owned! Plus, that was before the war, so it makes no sense to take them as hostages. The only reason you take Brandon as a hostage is because Aerys knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and most people don't believe he does, to keep House Stark in line.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

But again, you've answered the problem. He's the Crown Prince; and Aerys and Rhaella were King/Queen. Even if the Faith isn't so keen on incest, nothing stops Jaehaerys from ordering Aerys and Rhaella to marry.

ETA: marrying your daughter might bring about heated arguments, but it's really neither here nor there. The question really comes back to polygamy. And the Faith isn't going to make waves.

Round and round we go.

Um, only the Dragons got away with incest. It's not going too smoothly right now for Cersei et al., and incest is in part why. Plus, if Crastor was a person in power in Westeros (like a high lord lets's say), I think people would object to his life style and overthrow him. But that is neither here nor there.

[BearQueen87]

Round and round we go.

Um, only the Dragons got away with incest. It's not going too smoothly right now for Cersei et al., and incest is in part why. Plus, if Crastor was a person in power in Westeros (like a high lord lets's say), I think people would object to his life style and overthrow him. But that is neither here nor there.

We agree that this neither here nor there since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't brother/sister. The issue is polygamy. (and there is no issue)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Round and round we go.

Um, only the Dragons got away with incest. It's not going too smoothly right now for Cersei et al., and incest is in part why. Plus, if Crastor was a person in power in Westeros (like a high lord lets's say), I think people would object to his life style and overthrow him. But that is neither here nor there.

I don't get the point you are trying to make. Rhaegar is a Targ--and thus is a Dragon. The Cersei situation is a different matter as, IIRC, she is accused of, among other things, cheating on the king--which is not dependent on it being incest. The Kettleblack brothers are not related but part of what she confessed to. I agree that people might overthrow Crastor--but his marriages would still be marriages. The point is that if Rhaegar married Lyanna--they would be married and Rhaegar would not have to worry about being overthrown for marrying her.

[Alia of the knife]

On the matter of whether Aerys knew, or not, and how Hightower found Rhaegar, I speculated that is was Rhaella who told him where to find Rhaegar, but I also wonder if Rhaegar didn't contact Aerys to strike a deal with him in that he would come home if Aerys acknowledged his marriage and his child, and then Aerys sent Hightower.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I don't get the point you are trying to make. Rhaegar is a Targ--and thus is a Dragon. The Cersei situation is a different matter as, IIRC, she is accused of, among other things, cheating on the king--which is not dependent on it being incest. The Kettleblack brothers are not related but part of what she confessed to. I agree that people might overthrow Crastor--but his marriages would still be marriages. The point is that if Rhaegar married Lyanna--they would be married and Rhaegar would not have to worry about being overthrown for marrying her.

I believe she was accused of many things, including incest. The High Sparrow is old school.

We agree that this neither here nor there since Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't brother/sister. The issue is polygamy. (and there is no issue)

I was discussing incest. I already acknowledged that anti-polygamy is not a part of the faith.

[BearQueen87]

On the matter of whether Aerys knew, or not, and how Hightower found Rhaegar, I speculated that is was Rhaella who told him where to find Rhaegar, but I also wonder if Rhaegar didn't contact Aerys to strike a deal with him in that he would come home if Aerys acknowledged his marriage and his child, and then Aerys sent Hightower.

How much do we know about the relationship between Rhaella and Rhaegar? I like the idea that it was the Queen who told Hightower where to go but would Rhaegar have told Rhaella is my question.

[Alia of the knife]

How much do we know about the relationship between Rhaella and Rhaegar? I like the idea that it was the Queen who told Hightower where to go but would Rhaegar have told Rhaella is my question.

There seems to be a suggestion that they were close, and she even tries to protect Viserys from Aerys madness, and given that Varys was on a whispering campaign against both of them, then perhaps she was the one privy to his secrets.

It could be that she held out as long as she could, but when things got out of control, she had to give up his whereabouts, and pointed Hightower in the right direction.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Small but interesting point that he might have told his mother where he was. I think telling the mother makes sense, since she's not likely to tell Aerys or Elia. Seems unlikely Hightower would know where to go on his own.

[Alia of the knife]

And of course it plays into the fact that while Aerys might have been mad and paranoid, he wasn't wrong.

[mambru]

case in point: Rhaenrya and Daemon. They sought permission, were denied, got married anyway, and no one could do anything about it.

Not that I actually read the story, but IIRC from what I've read on these boards - wasn't the reason for the King's denial of Daemon's marriage the fact that Daemon was still married and his wife was still living - therefore he needed the king to get the High Septon to formally set aside his previous marriage before he could marry again? And the king refused to do this? And Daemon only married Rhaenrya later, AFTER his own wife died - therefore there was no longer any need for the king's permission to set aside his last marriage.

IMO, if polygamy were permissable to ANY Targaryen prince, without need for clearance from High Septon or king - then Daemon could have taken a second bride while his first one was still alive WITHOUT needing permission from King or High Septon. But in the story he had to get those things or a second marriage with a still-living first wife would not have been valid.

So if Prince Daemon Targaryen could not take another wife while his first wife still lived without a special dispensation from the High Sparrow - then Prince Rhaegar Targaryen could not take another wife while his first wife was still living without a special dispensation from the High Sparrow either. So if he was counting on a pastoral marriage to Lyanna by some passing barefoot septon to be VALID, he's Shit Out Of Luck. And being bookish, learned, history-minded fellow he is, he'd probably know that.

Of course, I have not read the story and I may have misunderstood the synopsis I've read...so I'm open to corrections there.

[Mladen]

Lyanna is a prime hostage? Like Brandon Stark? Like Lord Rickard Stark? If he had wanted Stark hostages he had two. Aerys seems interested in keeping his allies motivated by keeping their family members close. In general female hostages don't seem that valuable in asoiaf.

Actually they do... Sansa proved to be valuable asset to Tywin's Castamerization of Starks...

Like, Elia, perhaps?

Actually, corbon, one of the posters with that super cold logical brain :), pointed out to me once was there really a need for Aerys to remind Prince Lewyn that Elia is a hostage. Like, were Martell really going to turn their backs or were they all along with the Targs. Thing is that we do know that Aerys felt the need to remind Lewyn, but given his paranoia, we have to ask were there any objective need for that.

[BearQueen87]

Not that I actually read the story, but IIRC from what I've read on these boards - wasn't the reason for the King's denial of Daemon's marriage the fact that Daemon was still married and his wife was still living - therefore he needed the king to get the High Septon to formally set aside his previous marriage before he could marry again? And the king refused to do this? And Daemon only married Rhaenrya later, AFTER his own wife died - therefore there was no longer any need for the king's permission to set aside his last marriage.

IMO, if polygamy were permissable to ANY Targaryen prince, without need for clearance from High Septon or king - then Daemon could have taken a second bride while his first one was still alive WITHOUT needing permission from King or High Septon. But in the story he had to get those things or a second marriage with a still-living first wife would not have been valid.

So if Prince Daemon Targaryen could not take another wife while his first wife still lived without a special dispensation from the High Sparrow - then Prince Rhaegar Targaryen could not take another wife while his first wife was still living without a special dispensation from the High Sparrow either. So if he was counting on a pastoral marriage to Lyanna by some passing barefoot septon to be VALID, he's Shit Out Of Luck. And being bookish, learned, history-minded fellow he is, he'd probably know that.

Of course, I have not read the story and I may have misunderstood the synopsis I've read...so I'm open to corrections there.

You may be right (it has been awhile) but the point with Rhaegar is that he would have known this story, not sought permission, married Lyanna in both the Old and the New Way and it couldn't have been overturned. Rhaegar knows his history; asking his paranoid father for permission (which he doesn't need) isn't going to get him what he wants. But once it's done, it's done.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Actually they do... Sansa proved to be valuable asset to Tywin's Castamerization of Starks...

Actually, corbon, one of the posters with that super cold logical brain :), pointed out to me once was there really a need for Aerys to remind Prince Lewyn that Elia is a hostage. Like, were Martell really going to turn their backs or were they all along with the Targs. Thing is that we do know that Aerys felt the need to remind Lewyn, but given his paranoia, we have to ask were there any objective need for that.

Well feel free to judge it as you please:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elia_Martell

He kept her as a hostage in his own mind. We don't know if he communicated his intentions though. I tend to agree with your assertion, but a hostage is a hostage, regardless. It's not that important if Elia fully comprehends her situation, it's if Dorne knows Aerys refused to let her retreat back with the children (which again, we don't really know if she wanted to, we are just given the impression Aerys wants her close).