R+L=J v.92

[MtnLion]

It is an old dream, Ned having had it before.

His friends are as they had been in life, it is reliable.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

•The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
•Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
•Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
•Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
•Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.
Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[MtnLion]

What? It has been implied by a lot of fans that he feared Rhaegar might be laying the ground work to declare himself. Aerys was clearly concerned with what could happen. That's trust?

Nope. Giving orders to follow someone else's orders is a normal thing. Hypothetically, it would be disobeying orders if Aerys told the two of them they must always escort Rhaegar where ever he goes, and instead they stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders.

And I don't think he gave Jamie an order as much as he denied his request. Telling Jamie he can't take him his hardly an order.

Explain why he wanted Rhaegar to return, then. Why he entrusted the army to Rhaegar.

[BearQueen87]

What? It has been implied by a lot of fans that he feared Rhaegar might be laying the ground work to declare himself. Aerys was clearly concerned with what could happen. That's trust?

Nope. Giving orders to follow someone else's orders is a normal thing. Hypothetically, it would be disobeying orders if Aerys told the two of them they must always escort Rhaegar where ever he goes, and instead they stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders.

And I don't think he gave Jamie an order as much as he denied his request. Telling Jamie he can't take him his hardly an order.

By the fans? Well the text doesn't support that Aerys is overly mistrustful of his son for all the reasons MntLion laid out. Rhaegar might have being laying ground work, but without Varys whispering in his ear, Aerys wasn't sure what to think. And again, "please lead my army, son" doesn't exactly scream mistrust.

That, in all likelihood is not what Aerys told Whent and Dayne. He gave those two KG to Rhaegar and said to obey the prince. They did that.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

To me in screams "out of options." Who else had the ability to rally the Targ troupes? But hey, people are allowed to disagree.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Quick question about this section. Did Rhaegar, or anyone in the vicinity of the ToJ, have the ability to legitimize Jon?

[FrozenFire3]

:agree:

The parallels in the situations are notable. As far as lies with honor go, let's recall what Ned told Arya about chasing Nymeria away and lying to the King to protect her:

"It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was... not without honor."

Emphasis on the ellipsis. Ellipses usually signal a kind of 'self-censorship' in Ned's thought or word process, more often than not in relation to Lyanna, the murder of (Targaryen) children, the necessity of lying to protect the innocents, bastards vs truborns' claim to the throne, Rhaegar ... and Jon ;)

Lyanna was ... fond of flowers.

"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children ... it would be vile ... unspeakable ..."

"If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself ... no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

"It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was ... not without honor."

Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children ...

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yer Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion ...

Lya, I promise ...

The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy ... the boy ...

If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him ...

[BearQueen87]

To me in screams "out of options." Who else had the ability to rally the Targ troupes? But hey, people are allowed to disagree.

Quick question about this section. Did Rhaegar, or anyone in the vicinity of the ToJ, have the ability to legitimize Jon?

1) Aerys isn't without support. There were plenty of lords who could rally the troops, not to mention the other 4 KG. And how do you explain Aerys making JonCon his Hand, JonCon is someone who is clearly in love with Rhaegar and part of his inner circle.

2) He wouldn't need to be legitimized if R and L were married.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

It would seem I am late to the party. I feel Aerys paranoia has been exaggerated ever so slightly since the Rebellion ended and the victors are able to tell their revisionist history. The idea that he may well mistrust Rhaegar is probably true, but to the point where he is deeply afraid of him is far fetched in my opinion. Rhaegar is the heir, he would end up with the throne regardless. Besides the King holds the right to name a new heir if he was really that troubled by it. Also giving Rhaegar the royal army when you think he's trying to overthrow you would not be a very wise move.

[sj4iy]

Quick question about this section. Did Rhaegar, or anyone in the vicinity of the ToJ, have the ability to legitimize Jon?

Yes. He could easily legitimize Jon by marrying Lyanna before he was born :p

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

1) Aerys isn't without support. There were plenty of lords who could rally the troops, not to mention the other 4 KG. And how do you explain Aerys making JonCon his Hand, JonCon is someone who is clearly in love with Rhaegar and part of his inner circle.

2) He wouldn't need to be legitimized if R and L were married.

Wasn't his support waning by this point though? And without Tywin, who could he have turned to after JonCon? I think explaining Aerys' actions near the end is difficult to do. I mean, right after he elevated JonCon, he exiled him, after one (albeit bad) defeat/failure.

And I get that. When did the acceptance of Targ polygamy end, out of curiosity?

[BearQueen87]

And I get that. When did the acceptance of Targ polygamy end, out of curiosity?

End for whom? Because I would say that this acceptance never ended. The Targs found it harder to flout custom without their dragons, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom. Aerys and Rhaella, for instance, marry and commit insect even thought that is frowned up by the Faith. But the King (Jaehaerys II) forces his children to marry. If the High Septon has issues with Rhaegar taking two wives, well then Rhaegar can just get himself a new high septon.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

End for whom? Because I would say that this acceptance never ended. The Targs found it harder to flout custom without their dragons, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom. Aerys and Rhaella, for instance, marry and commit insect even thought that is frowned up by the Faith. But the King (Jaehaerys II) forces his children to marry. If the High Septon has issues with Rhaegar taking two wives, well then Rhaegar can just get himself a new high septon.

"...but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom."

Haaaa I see what you did there

[Prince of the North]

End for whom? Because I would say that this acceptance never ended. The Targs found it harder to flout custom without their dragons, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom. Aerys and Rhaella, for instance, marry and commit insect even thought that is frowned up by the Faith. But the King (Jaehaerys II) forces his children to marry. If the High Septon has issues with Rhaegar taking two wives, well then Rhaegar can just get himself a new high septon.

Agreed. And, I think, if things had turned out as Rhaegar planned (i.e. setting aside his father, etc.) he would have had more than enough "political capital" or "positive public regard" to spend on getting himself a couple of wives. I mean, sure, his reputation would certainly have taken a hit but I think he would have survived it just fine. Much like Ned Stark's reputation survived only slightly soiled after he fathered a bastard and brought him home to raise as his own ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To me in screams "out of options." Who else had the ability to rally the Targ troupes? But hey, people are allowed to disagree.

While it seems that Aerys did not trust Rhaegar 100%, he trusted Rhaegar more than enough to order his Lord Commander to search Rhaegar, make sure that Rhaegar returned to KL, and to allow Rhaegar to take command of the troops.

Also, many lords were loyal to Aerys during the Rebellion. Many had already responded to Aerys' summons, just look at the battles against Robert at Summerhal and Ashford, and the Siege at Storm's End. Rhaegar and his possible influence had nothing to do with the armies involved in those instances.

[UnmaskedLurker]

End for whom? Because I would say that this acceptance never ended. The Targs found it harder to flout custom without their dragons, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom. Aerys and Rhaella, for instance, marry and commit insect even thought that is frowned up by the Faith. But the King (Jaehaerys II) forces his children to marry. If the High Septon has issues with Rhaegar taking two wives, well then Rhaegar can just get himself a new high septon.

I agree with this, but I think it is even more fundamental than that. If Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, then they are married. The HS may have a problem with it, but we have no evidence that the HS would be able to say it is not a marriage. For example, with Crastor, people complain about the incest but don't even really mention the polygamy. But more important, no one suggests these were not actual marriages. So given that Targs have had multiple wives in the past (big clue from GRRM) and recent incestuous marriages (which the Faith seem to hate more than polygamy), who can stop R&L from getting married? They get married (old gods style, traveling septon, both, whatever) and then have a child. If the 3 come back to KL together, who will tell Rhaegar that he is not really married to Lyanna? No one would even try to assert that he is not married to Lyanna under those circumstances.

[sj4iy]

I agree with this, but I think it is even more fundamental than that. If Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, then they are married. The HS may have a problem with it, but we have no evidence that the HS would be able to say it is not a marriage. For example, with Crastor, people complain about the incest but don't even really mention the polygamy. But more important, no one suggests these were not actual marriages. So given that Targs have had multiple wives in the past (big clue from GRRM) and recent incestuous marriages (which the Faith seem to hate more than polygamy), who can stop R&L from getting married? They get married (old gods style, traveling septon, both, whatever) and then have a child. If the 3 come back to KL together, who will tell Rhaegar that he is not really married to Lyanna? No one would even try to assert that he is not married to Lyanna under those circumstances.

Hey, at least Rhaegar married into non-incestuous relationships.

[BearQueen87]

I agree with this, but I think it is even more fundamental than that. If Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, then they are married. The HS may have a problem with it, but we have no evidence that the HS would be able to say it is not a marriage. For example, with Crastor, people complain about the incest but don't even really mention the polygamy. But more important, no one suggests these were not actual marriages. So given that Targs have had multiple wives in the past (big clue from GRRM) and recent incestuous marriages (which the Faith seem to hate more than polygamy), who can stop R&L from getting married? They get married (old gods style, traveling septon, both, whatever) and then have a child. If the 3 come back to KL together, who will tell Rhaegar that he is not really married to Lyanna? No one would even try to assert that he is not married to Lyanna under those circumstances.

case in point: Rhaenrya and Daemon. They sought permission, were denied, got married anyway, and no one could do anything about it.

[sabrecmc]

I am a total believer here, but it still bugs me that Lyanna's dad and brother rush off to defend her, end up getting killed horribly, a war starts, and Lyanna and Rhaegar and just...sitting around Dorne, having lots of baby-making sex? Does news really travel THAT slowly or are they totally isolated there or what? Just seems an odd reaction to me. I get that maybe by the time Lyanna learns of the deaths of her brother and father, maybe things are too far gone, but still. She has two other brothers to think about, not to mention all the other folks dying in this war. I guess I'll just have to wait for the day when GRRM explains it all.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am a total believer here, but it still bugs me that Lyanna's dad and brother rush off to defend her, end up getting killed horribly, a war starts, and Lyanna and Rhaegar and just...sitting around Dorne, having lots of baby-making sex? Does news really travel THAT slowly or are they totally isolated there or what? Just seems an odd reaction to me. I get that maybe by the time Lyanna learns of the deaths of her brother and father, maybe things are too far gone, but still. She has two other brothers to think about, not to mention all the other folks dying in this war. I guess I'll just have to wait for the day when GRRM explains it all.

You basically answer you own question. What could they do at that point? Each step seems so unlikely, they could not plan for it. Who would think Brandon would be so foolish. Who would think that Aerys would kill Brandon and Rickard and demand the heads of Ned and Robert? And once Brandon went to KL, there is not much Rhaegar could do--he could not make his father behave differently.

Their plan seemed to be originally to get married and only come out of hiding after they had a child to bring with them. Given what they knew when they knew it, what should they have done differently?

[Lonin]

I agree with this, but I think it is even more fundamental than that. If Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, then they are married. The HS may have a problem with it, but we have no evidence that the HS would be able to say it is not a marriage. For example, with Crastor, people complain about the incest but don't even really mention the polygamy. But more important, no one suggests these were not actual marriages. So given that Targs have had multiple wives in the past (big clue from GRRM) and recent incestuous marriages (which the Faith seem to hate more than polygamy), who can stop R&L from getting married? They get married (old gods style, traveling septon, both, whatever) and then have a child. If the 3 come back to KL together, who will tell Rhaegar that he is not really married to Lyanna? No one would even try to assert that he is not married to Lyanna under those circumstances.

I agree.. However, I think you need to factor King Aerys into the discussion. I am of a small minority that believes that Aerys was aware of the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage and did not object. Aerys and Rhaella were married because of believe in tptwp prophecy. Its possible that Rhaegar could have convinced Aerys that the same prophecy required him to take a second wife.

[MtnLion]

I agree.. However, I think you need to factor King Aerys into the discussion. I am of a small minority that believes that Aerys was aware of the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage and did not object. Aerys and Rhaella were married because of believe in tptwp prophecy. Its possible that Rhaegar could have convinced Aerys that the same prophecy required him to take a second wife.

There is a huge argument against Aerys knowing anything at all about Lyanna. What does Aerys do with Jaime, with Elia? He holds them hostage to ensure the comport of Tywin and Dorne. Where does he hold them? In the Red Keep, close at hand. Would Lyanna make a good hostage during the rebellion? Certainly. If Aerys knew about Lyanna, and could get ahold of her she would be in the Red Keep and Ned would have stayed out of the war.

Don't jump to the conclusion that many do, that Brandon or Rickard or any of the retinue mentioned Lyanna, it is not supported. All we know is that Brandon demanded that Rhaegar come out and die, absolutely no mention of Lyanna.