Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 You're right about him being with Arsenal for three seasons. But in that time, he has only made 26 starts. This is only in the league and not including games in the cup competitions. That to me is not enough experience for a defensive player. I would also want to look into how many of those have been consecutive starts as opposed to just filling in for a game or two because believe it or not, continuity does matter for defenders. Also, he is 22. His best years are ahead of him. I believe he can improve, and that is not to say he is not already a solid player. On a slightly tangential note, Whoscored's strengths and weaknesses for Jenkinson are horribly wrong. You would think they would at least be close to the mark, apparently 'passing' is a strong point whilst his 'crossing' is weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 You're right about him being with Arsenal for three seasons. But in that time, he has only made 26 starts. This is only in the league and not including games in the cup competitions. That to me is not enough experience for a defensive player. I would also want to look into how many of those have been consecutive starts as opposed to just filling in for a game or two because believe it or not, continuity does matter for defenders. Also, he is 22. His best years are ahead of him. I believe he can improve, and that is not to say he is not already a solid player. By no means am I saying that his career is ruined or over or anything like that. It's just that young players' mistakes can be explained by inexperience only for so long. I mean, 3 years of playing for and training with one of the top teams in one of the world's top competitions should be enough to throw that explanation out the window, shouldn't it? Even with not getting a longer run of games under his belt, it's not as if he wasn't given an opportunity to earn it. Sure, forcing Sagna out of the starting eleven is a tall order but earning a starting spot by being better than some great players comes hand in hand with playing for big clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 No, I don't agree with the point that simply 'training' makes you a better player. In my opinion, you need to have the experience of playing consistently at a high level to make that step to becoming a very good player. I'm sure training helps to some extent, but nothing replaces actually playing a game. Sagna was easily in the top RB's in the league, and he is categorically not a better player than sagna. You're saying he should become a better player than him at 22, with not even close to the experience Sagna has as a player?Also, when you say 'young players mistakes can only be explained by inexperience for so long', it's hardly been so long for Jenko! He's barely even had a chance, which is the whole point of sending him out on loan. And don't forget, he has actually played well for us on quite a few occasions, which is why he's also become a better player since he's joined us. He filled in for Sagna when he had a broken leg, and did quite well. Because he was in the team consistently. Played well against City and Bayern in that time. If 'training' simply made you a better player ( or you know dislodge one of the best RB's in the country), why do top teams even send players out on loan? Looks at Wilshere, he got loaned out to Bolton, played consistently there and then came back into the Arsenal first team. Edit: Also, I'm fairly certain he was playing instead of Sagna for a time, until he made a couple of mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 On a slightly tangential note, Whoscored's strengths and weaknesses for Jenkinson are horribly wrong. You would think they would at least be close to the mark, apparently 'passing' is a strong point whilst his 'crossing' is weak. WhoScored seem to have got it pretty bang on the money for me. There is no downside at all to loaning Jenko out for Arsenal. If he comes good, then great! If not, then sell him. At least you'll know by the end of the loan. As Raja says above, endless training is no substitute at all for playing Premier League games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I haven't played much football competitively , but I've played lots and lots of cricket. Batting in the nets did fuck all to help me, I had to actually play games often to become better at it and actually spend time in the middle. I don't think Carl is ever going to live down his 'banter' and nor should he especially after using that word as a verb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I haven't played much football competitively , but I've played lots and lots of cricket. Batting in the nets did fuck all to help me, I had to actually play games often to become better at it and actually spend time in the middle. From my (limited) experience, training helps but only so much. Playing an actual match bears little resemblance to playing against your team mates at Colney. This is true at lower levels so I can't imagine how different it must be walking into a Premier Leage game with thousands of fans and 11 other players who desperately want to beat you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 especially after using that word as a verb. As in so many things, I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of Rio Ferdinand. ETA: Playing an actual match bears little resemblance to playing against your team mates at Colney. London Colney.[/pedant] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 literally couldn't care less that I missed "London" out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 As in so many things, I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of Rio Ferdinand. So what you're saying is, you don't want one of these for Christmas? 25 pounds. The mind boggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 So what you're saying is, you don't want one of these for Christmas? 25 pounds. The mind boggles. Would you believe that I don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Would you believe that I don't? But they look so 'winning'. I love that picture, wish he would wear it to MOTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 No, I don't agree with the point that simply 'training' makes you a better player. In my opinion, you need to have the experience of playing consistently at a high level to make that step to becoming a very good player. I'm sure training helps to some extent, but nothing replaces actually playing a game. Sagna was easily in the top RB's in the league, and he is categorically not a better player than sagna. You're saying he should become a better player than him at 22, with not even close to the experience Sagna has as a player?Also, when you say 'young players mistakes can only be explained by inexperience for so long', it's hardly been so long for Jenko! He's barely even had a chance, which is the whole point of sending him out on loan. And don't forget, he has actually played well for us on quite a few occasions, which is why he's also become a better player since he's joined us. He filled in for Sagna when he had a broken leg, and did quite well. Because he was in the team consistently. Played well against City and Bayern in that time. If 'training' simply made you a better player ( or you know dislodge one of the best RB's in the country), why do top teams even send players out on loan? Looks at Wilshere, he got loaned out to Bolton, played consistently there and then came back into the Arsenal first team. Edit: Also, I'm fairly certain he was playing instead of Sagna for a time, until he made a couple of mistakes.Of course training only is not enough to make you a great player, but training hard may give you the opportunity to earn a shot.Jenkinson has earned a shot repeatedly, but has failed to make use of it.I already said that forcing Sagna out of the team would be no mean feat, but now Sagna is off to City. What's stopping him now? And it has been 3 years of professional football for Jenko.Sure, he still has time, potential and opportunity to improve and I'm sure he will just as I'm sure there are valid reasons for him not being at the top of his game. It's just that inexperience is not one of those reasons. As for training not being important for improvement, I must say I disagree.The best example to prove my point is Zoran Tosic. You may not remember him, but he signed for Man Utd a couple of years ago when Utd wanted to sign Ljajic from Partizan Belgrade.Tosic moved to Manchester straight away and Ljajic remained in Partizan until he turned 18 (Utd passed on him eventually).Tosic stayed at Utd for a while, playing mostly for reserve team, got a handful of League Cup matches and such.The guy who came to play for our national team was definitely on a whole other level than the guy who left for Man Utd.Afterwards he moved to CSKA Moscow and has become one of their main players in the meantime. All the progress you make as a player comes from training. Matches are where you shine and the reason you do all the training for but it's the training that makes all that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 All the progress you make as a player comes from training. Matches are where you shine and the reason you do all the training for but it's the training that makes all that happen. No-one's saying that training isn't important, but that many players need a good run in the team at the highest level to put the lessons from training together cohesively in a match context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 He has not taken those shots because he hasn't played enough games. He has also played quite well in the few games where he has had a consistent run out in the team. Do you think Kos would have become the defender he is without playing all those games for Arsenal? By simply training with the team? I don't understand how you can say that he's not inexperienced given the number of starts he has made in 3 years in the team. Training does not equal to experience for me. When one talks about experience, it is never the number of years you've trained, but the number of games you play. Obviously that does not seem to be the case in your opinion, and given how fundamentally I disagree, I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Of course training only is not enough to make you a great player, but training hard may give you the opportunity to earn a shot. Jenkinson has earned a shot repeatedly, but has failed to make use of it. I already said that forcing Sagna out of the team would be no mean feat, but now Sagna is off to City. What's stopping him now? Experience. Arsenal wants to compete for the title. Tough to do that when your starting RB has less than a season's worth of starts in the premier league over the last 3 years. He needs regular first team football and learning on the job is great at a mid table team but not ideal when you're competing for a title. And training does help, but it's a supplement to the actual experience you gain in a game. You can train for 3 years but you'll never be good until you have the experience in most situations to understand what will happen in real time when the lights are on, the fans are screaming, the score is tight and all the pressure is on you. Nothing can replace that feeling except playing and Arsenal cannot afford to play an inexperienced RB as the starter, let alone have two inexperienced RBs (if we didn't buy Debuchy, an experienced solid RB, but bought Chambers, the RBs would be Jenkinson/Chambers, neither of which have played a full season worth of games). I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel good about our defense in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Experience. Arsenal wants to compete for the title. Tough to do that when your starting RB has less than a season's worth of starts in the premier league over the last 3 years. He needs regular first team football and learning on the job is great at a mid table team but not ideal when you're competing for a title. And training does help, but it's a supplement to the actual experience you gain in a game. You can train for 3 years but you'll never be good until you have the experience in most situations to understand what will happen in real time when the lights are on, the fans are screaming, the score is tight and all the pressure is on you. Nothing can replace that feeling except playing and Arsenal cannot afford to play an inexperienced RB as the starter, let alone have two inexperienced RBs (if we didn't buy Debuchy, an experienced solid RB, but bought Chambers, the RBs would be Jenkinson/Chambers, neither of which have played a full season worth of games). I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel good about our defense in that situation. I forgot about Debuchy :blushing: As for the training, i wouldn't say it's a supplement but rather a prerequisite ;) Other than that, we're in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I forgot about Debuchy :blushing: As for the training, i wouldn't say it's a supplement but rather a prerequisite ;) Other than that, we're in agreement. That's fair. I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Raja, thought this was a good article on Alexis Sanchez and whether he has the attributes to play up front for Arsenal. You might be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 In other news, looks like Lukaku to Everton is done. Great signing by Everton. Still don't understand why Chelsea doesn't want to hold on to him with their striker issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Thought Drogba was brought back to help groom. Don't think its a good move letting him go. Costa gets a knock and they're stuck with Drogs and Torres :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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