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Stubby

Small Questions v 10086

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I was wondering if there is every a mention of the Targaryens choosing their brides among the female members of House Dayne? As far as I remember that has never been the case but it is rather odd considering the fairly high status and prestige of the family among the Westerosi nobility. The Dayenes having similar "phenotype" to the Targs (purple eyes, sometimes silver hair) would seem like reasonable candidates when brother/sister incest is either not possible or desirable. The only drawback would be possibly alienating House Martell.

It seems rather odd that for example Ashara Dayne was not considered a possible match for Rhaegar. Arthur being the crown prince's oldest friend implies a strong bond between the two families. I understand that the Daynes are not Lord Paramours and might not be considered worthy of the Targaryens but surely they should rank above some foreigner from Essos that Aerys was willing to consider.

No marriage to a Dayne had ever been mentioned.

"some foreigner from Essos" would be a highborn girl of Valyrian descent. The Targaryens themselves are also Valyrian, so it's not weird that Aerys had looked in that direction.

That Rhaegar and Arthur were good friends does not imply a good relationship between the two houses, however. That Rhaegar was friends with someone, doesn't mean that Aerys was.

Also, a possible match between Targaryen and Dayne would not alienate House Martell. Why would it? There was nothing previously arranged with the Martells, so it would have been no problem if a bannermans daughter had been chosen as Rhaegars wife..

But Aerys wanted someone to continue the line of the dragons with, as pure a Valyrian blood as he could find. In Essos, where people of Valyrian descent still live, Steffon obviously did not find anyone who met Aerys' criteria, and thus Elia Martell, herself having Targaryen blood, was chosen. The Daynes do not have dragonblood, which would always count higher than descending from any random Valyrian house.

The theory is that Steffon was send out to find descendants of Aerion Targaryen, who had spend quite some time in Lys and could easily have left a few children there. There might have been others as well, descending from Targaryen cousins from before the Doom. If their descendants still exist, however, Aerys must have thought their lines were diluted too much, by having made the "wrong" (read: too many non-valyrian) marriages.

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now lets not shut down the chance of the daynes having some dragon blood.



we still have to consider how they do have some valyrian features and i do have a theory that the 3rd son of aegon v might have had some going ons with them


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No marriage to a Dayne had ever been mentioned.

"some foreigner from Essos" would be a highborn girl of Valyrian descent. The Targaryens themselves are also Valyrian, so it's not weird that Aerys had looked in that direction.

That Rhaegar and Arthur were good friends does not imply a good relationship between the two houses, however. That Rhaegar was friends with someone, doesn't mean that Aerys was.

Also, a possible match between Targaryen and Dayne would not alienate House Martell. Why would it? There was nothing previously arranged with the Martells, so it would have been no problem if a bannermans daughter had been chosen as Rhaegars wife..

But Aerys wanted someone to continue the line of the dragons with, as pure a Valyrian blood as he could find. In Essos, where people of Valyrian descent still live, Steffon obviously did not find anyone who met Aerys' criteria, and thus Elia Martell, herself having Targaryen blood, was chosen. The Daynes do not have dragonblood, which would always count higher than descending from any random Valyrian house.

The theory is that Steffon was send out to find descendants of Aerion Targaryen, who had spend quite some time in Lys and could easily have left a few children there. There might have been others as well, descending from Targaryen cousins from before the Doom. If their descendants still exist, however, Aerys must have thought their lines were diluted too much, by having made the "wrong" (read: too many non-valyrian) marriages.

Wonderful summary. Thank you so much. You definitely had cleared up a lot of things for me. I had no idea that Aerys was hoping to find some distant Targaryen relative there.

I understand that the Martells have some dragon blood through the first Daenerys but they are Rhoynish, and thus very un-Targaryen looking first and foremost. I would have thought that keeping the quintessential Targaryen visage (an obvious staple of their "superiority") was the primary reason for the incest and general desire to keep it in the family. I don't think there's anything special about "dragon blood": all just Targaryen propaganda :-)

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Wonderful summary. Thank you so much. You definitely had cleared up a lot of things for me. I had no idea that Aerys was hoping to find some distant Targaryen relative there.

I understand that the Martells have some dragon blood through the first Daenerys but they are Rhoynish, and thus very un-Targaryen looking first and foremost. I would have thought that keeping the quintessential Targaryen visage (an obvious staple of their "superiority") was the primary reason for the incest and general desire to keep it in the family. I don't think there's anything special about "dragon blood": all just Targaryen propaganda :-)

Aerys seemed to care more about the purity of the blood, than about whether or not Rhaegars bride looked Valyrian. However, the more Valyrian the blood, the bigger the chances the girl will look Valyrian :). Had Elia not been available, perhaps then Aerys might have looked at Ashara.. or, at the Velaryons (strong Valyrian and Taragaryen heritage). The Celtigars also came from Valyria, though I'm not sure if they have the Valyrian looks (the Velaryons certainly do)

It is my guess that a Velaryon might have married a Dayne, if the silver hair/purple eyes thing is a recent one. this should then have occurred within the last 100 years or so (since Dorne joined the kingdoms). That could explain the Valyrian looks that they can have. They'd even very distantly have some Targaryen blood in that case.

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now lets not shut down the chance of the daynes having some dragon blood.

we still have to consider how they do have some valyrian features and i do have a theory that the 3rd son of aegon v might have had some going ons with them

Me and Rhaenys had a brief discussion about this before, and it all comes down to whether "Dayne traits" were present before the Conquest. If they were, then they obviously don't come from Valyrian ancestry.

Now I think on it, I feel I have seen Ran comment on the Daynes before. Can anyone remember anything?

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Me and Rhaenys had a brief discussion about this before, and it all comes down to whether "Dayne traits" were present before the Conquest. If they were, then they obviously don't come from Valyrian ancestry.

Now I think on it, I feel I have seen Ran comment on the Daynes before. Can anyone remember anything?

Any chance you remember which thread that was in?

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Any chance you remember which thread that was in?

No, I'm not entirely sure he did say something. I just have that vague feeling he did :dunno: It was quite a while ago if he did though (I lurked long before I joined)

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I found this

Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

It doesn't say much though.

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Trying to figure out why Barristan Selmy's name is "bare it then sell me". Does it mean he's dealing with all of Dany's damn problems in her absence, then he will sell her out to Aegon because he has the better claim?

:bang:

When you read other works of GRRM's. you will notice he reuses his old ideas a lot and he stands by it. In some interview or SSM(?) he also mentions that names and languages are some of the hardest stuff for him, admiring Tolkien who was able to give every name in a dozen language, when he is struggling with one language already.

There's a King Barristan mentioned in his earlier non-ASOIAF work. It's just a name with a nice ring to it, he keeps reusing them.

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No, I'm not entirely sure he did say something. I just have that vague feeling he did :dunno: It was quite a while ago if he did though (I lurked long before I joined)

I seem to recall a discussion about the Daynes having their silver hair and violet eyes before the Targs arrived, but I can't provide a quote.

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Looks like it's been about 7 years since I last logged in to this site.



I bought A Dance with Dragons the first day it was released, but it still sits on my shelf unread. The guy just writes so slow I decided to wait for him to finish the series before reading any further. I'm just too busy to reread that many books to get reacquainted with what's going on before starting the newest book. So my small question is rather simple... What's the latest word on the next book? Is it due around Christmas, next year sometime, does anyone know? If not what's the overall feel?



Thanks, Publius


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Looks like it's been about 7 years since I last logged in to this site.

I bought A Dance with Dragons the first day it was released, but it still sits on my shelf unread. The guy just writes so slow I decided to wait for him to finish the series before reading any further. I'm just too busy to reread that many books to get reacquainted with what's going on before starting the newest book. So my small question is rather simple... What's the latest word on the next book? Is it due around Christmas, next year sometime, does anyone know? If not what's the overall feel?

Thanks, Publius

We don't know. I think it's safe to say it will not be out this year. It could be out sometime in late 2015 at the earliest I'd say.

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So it's pronounced Bahr Ris Stan Sell Me and not Bear Ris Stan Sell Me? There's something going on with that name. He's an advisor to the Breaker of chains. He's the last one anyone would suspect in Quaithe's betrayal warnings. I think he'd change sides to Aegon because he has the better and more rightful claim than Dany. But I think he'd be straightforward and polite about it with Dany, like a proper relationship breakup.

I expect Barristan would be quite upset with Illyrio if he thought he had been directed to Daenerys instead of the true king...

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I have looked around, but have not seen this debated as much on here. So, rather than start a thread, I will ask this here. Does anyone have any good guesses at who could have been members of the Band of Nine? We know of four of them, but who else could joined in on that alliance?


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I have looked around, but have not seen this debated as much on here. So, rather than start a thread, I will ask this here. Does anyone have any good guesses at who could have been members of the Band of Nine? We know there was a Blackfyre, and a guy from Tyrosh, but who else could joined in on that alliance?

The known members of the Band of Nine are Maelys Blackfyre, Alequo Adarys, Samarro Saan and The Ebon Prince. With the close proximity of the fighting to the Stepstones, I guess it's not unlikely that the people leading Lys and Myr took place (not Tyrosh, as Tyrosh was conquered).

Alequo was not from Tyrosh himself, he was installed as leader of Tyrosh, a position he managed to keep for 6 years after the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

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I have looked around, but have not seen this debated as much on here. So, rather than start a thread, I will ask this here. Does anyone have any good guesses at who could have been members of the Band of Nine? We know of four of them, but who else could joined in on that alliance?

The ones we know for sure are on the wiki:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Band_of_Nine

Edit: Ninjaed by a good ten minutes. Should have refreshed the page before posting.

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