Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[Mithras]

So slavery is only bad if the slaves are mistreated? I find this a pretty ridiculous notion. It is wrong for any human being to be owned by another. End of story.

I would say the New Hampshire state motto sums up my feelings on it. "Live Free or Die"

I did not claim that. What I claim is that the price of being free is too much for some slaves. As Tyrion noted, those who can "live free or die" are as few as dragon teeth when steel hits the flint.

[Kyoshi]

I did not claim that. What I claim is that the price of being free is too much for some slaves. As Tyrion noted, those who can "live free or die" are as few as dragon teeth when steel hits the flint.

It is also important to note that Tyrion was owned by the same slaver as Jorah. Somehow you find it convenient to ignore that part of the equation.

EDIT: Tyrion is also the same guy who expressed disapproval at the way the mountain clans included their women in discussions that led to key decisions. I'm not too sure he's the guy to always listen to.

[Nictarion]

I did not claim that. What I claim is that the price of being free is too much for some slaves. As Tyrion noted, those who can "live free or die" are as few as dragon teeth when steel hits the flint.

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

Also I think it's pretty obvious what GRRM feelings on slavery are. Ser Creighton made a good post a little while back pointing out the fates of the slaving societies have not been good.

Old Ghis - destroyed

Valyria - destroyed

Astapor - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

Yunkai - surrendered to Daenerys Targaryen

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

I see a pattern developing. With Dany likely uniting all the Khalasars in WoW I think the rest of the slaving cities in Essos better look the fuck out.

[Mladen]

So slavery is only bad if the slaves are mistreated? I find this a pretty ridiculous notion. It is wrong for any human being to be owned by another. End of story.

I would say the New Hampshire state motto sums up my feelings on it. "Live Free or Die"

Well, then your issue is with Daenerys. Because she basically said that she does make difference between slaves in Qarth and those in SB. For the record, before the expected rant, I do not condone slavery, I am not pro-slavery, and I believe Dany had every moral right to end it. The question certainly remains, did she end it, as well as what her plans are.

[Consigliere]

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

Also I think it's pretty obvious what GRRM feelings on slavery are. Ser Creighton made a good post a little while back pointing out the fates of the slaving societies have not been good.

Old Ghis - destroyed

Valyria - destroyed

Astapor - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

Yunkai - surrendered to Daenerys Targaryen

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

I see a pattern developing. With Dany likely uniting all the Khalasars in WoW I think the rest of the slaving cities in Essos better look the fuck out.

GRRM also made the city founded by former slaves the most powerful of the free cities. Watch out Volantis, Mhysa is going to fuck you up.

[Mikkel]

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

In all likelihood, much more than any of us are (thankfully) ;)

Also I think it's pretty obvious what GRRM feelings on slavery are.

Doesn't mean we can't discuss the relatively merits of how you go about ending it, or what authority Dany has to make this decision for thousands upon thousands of people she has never met.

Ser Creighton made a good post a little while back pointing out the fates of the slaving societies have not been good.

Old Ghis - destroyed

Valyria - destroyed

Astapor - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

Yunkai - surrendered to Daenerys Targaryen

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

I see a pattern developing. With Dany likely uniting all the Khalasars in WoW I think the rest of the slaving cities in Essos better look the fuck out.

It's not just the slaving cities, it's anybody who happens to be in the area, for whatever reason, including the slaves.

But it does seem likely that they're in for a rough time, but if you wish your list to be complete, you should add:

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen. Has since re-opened slave markets outside the city, allows slaves inside the walls as long as the owners are not locals, and allows self-enslavement of its citizens due to poverty. Takes a cut of the sales administered by notable sellsword Daario Naharis, with the blessing of supposed anti-slavery conqueror Daenerys Targaryen.

[Game Of Thrones]

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

Also I think it's pretty obvious what GRRM feelings on slavery are. Ser Creighton made a good post a little while back pointing out the fates of the slaving societies have not been good.

Old Ghis - destroyed

Valyria - destroyed

Astapor - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

Yunkai - surrendered to Daenerys Targaryen

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

I see a pattern developing. With Dany likely uniting all the Khalasars in WoW I think the rest of the slaving cities in Essos better look the fuck out.

Yeah, totally.

Ironborn are totally destroyed. They are totally not raiding the Reach, they totally have no thralls (slaves) or salt wives (sex slaves), they are totally not slaving, and they are totally not going to ally with Dany.

[Nictarion]

Well, then your issue is with Daenerys. Because she basically said that she does make difference between slaves in Qarth and those in SB. For the record, before the expected rant, I do not condone slavery, I am not pro-slavery, and I believe Dany had every moral right to end it. The question certainly remains, did she end it, as well as what her plans are.

She had no power in Qarth. If she had 8000 Unsuliied at the time I'm not so sure XXD would have been allowed to keep his slaves.

[Mladen]

She had no power in Qarth. If she had 8000 Unsuliied at the time I'm not so sure XXD would have been allowed to keep his slaves.

I get that... What I don't get is her making that difference. So, again, the issue about "slavery is bad, all slaves are the same" is also with Daenerys. She literally said it to Xaro.

[Nictarion]

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen. Has since re-opened slave markets outside the city, allows slaves inside the walls as long as the owners are not locals, and allows self-enslavement of its citizens due to poverty. Takes a cut of the sales administered by notable sellsword Daario Naharis, with the blessing of supposed anti-slavery conqueror Daenerys Targaryen.

Wasn't my favorite decision Dany ever made, but did she really have a right to tell the people who wanted to sell themselves no? She didn't own them after all.

[Kyoshi]

Here's Ser Creighton's post:

Oh are we doing the 163 again, are we making the made up argument about them again? Is there any text that supports the poor innocent slavery theory? The poor slavers got exactly what they deserved. The best part about this unsupported fictitious argument is that the friends of the slavers on this forum are so anxious to run to the defense of the slavers but could care less about the 163 children they slaughtered and that 163 is not even the tip of the iceberg for all the atrocities they have committed. So desperate to try and make Dany bad and cruel and malevolent that you stand up for slavers. At no point has Martin indicated these people are innocent, no just the opposite. The slavers are not fighting for freedom, or rights, they are fighting for just the opposite they are fighting to enslave people, that's what they want.

Choices and actions have consequences in this world just like in our world. That's from the author and the slavers made the choice to be slavers, nobody forced them, that was their call. Nobody made them butcher those children, it was a pointless act made in spite because the rich bastards didn't want to stop slavery. They have so little value for the slaves that this was the act the chose. It brought about a consequence though didn't it? So many fans so eager to defend the slavers and condemn Dany and the slaves she is freeing. Lets not care about the slaves, it's poor slavers that need your sympathy and baseless theories. Taking up the cause of slavers? Really? The poor innocent slavers? When did Martin ever state this? Let's take a nice look at slavery and what Martin thinks of it within the books. What does Martin like to do to slavers?

The Old Ghiscari empire. Thousands of years before Valyria, this was a empire built on the backs of slaves. They didn't become slavers after the Valyrians, nope, we got thousands of years of this empire enslaving people. It wasn't the Valyrians who started this practice. It was the Ghiscari what a surprise. Then when the Valyrians discovered dragons, it was the Ghiscari who declared war on them and tried to take the dragons and make slaves of the Valyrians.

So the old Ghiscari slave empire was destroyed. Naturally the remnants started the practice of slavery again. The 3 slaver cities built on the backs and blood of slaves.

Valyria, became a slave society, what happened to Valyria? Martin blew it off the map, yeah he totally destroyed it and the slaves from old Valyria founded Braavos one of todays richest and most powerful cities that does not practice in slavery and does not trade with the slaver cities.

So the remains of the old Ghiscari go back to being slavers and the Targs who are the remnants of old Valyria no longer abide by that crap, no they adapted.

Did Westeros ever practice slavery? Harren the black built Harrenhal on the backs of thousands of slaves. Gosh what happened to Harren? Oh that's right the Dragons happened to Harren. No more slavery in Westeros. That was the last of slavery though the Iron Born still practice Thralls and salt wives.

The happy slave, and their kind masters. Bullshit. Xaro basically tells Dany gosh how could anyone build anything if they have to work for it, how can a man even think if he has to work?

"Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved."

No what he likes is his giant mansions and his gold laced everything and rubies on his saddle and lots and lots of extravagance. Qarth doesn't even need slaves, it's the trade capitol of the world, they just don't want to do any sort of real work and want cheap manual labor.

Braavos is proof about the bullshit of slavery, an advanced aqueduct system, the most advanced banking system on the planet, a trade port power house, the most advanced shipyard in the world, and they did this on an island made up mostly of rocks. They healing houses, freedom of religion, all sorts of stuff just no slaves.

Volantis is throwing down the gauntlet too, I guess they are really concerned about the 163. Oh wait they were all talking about getting a bunch of slaves, gems and gold. Anyone want to make any bets on what Martin is going to do to Volantis?

Lets not forget Qarth either. Dany made a choice though she had little as there was only one direction she could go. She crossed the red waste. Then Qarth came to her and invited her to the city. Where she asked for help and they said no, and some of them tried to kill her twice. The Warlocks, they tried to killer and Martin destroyed them for it. Of course Xaro came to Dany in Meereen with his bullshit about how good slavery is. Good for him is actually what he is saying it's all together shitty for the slaves.

In Astapor she witnessed first hand the atrocities of the slavers, they are beyond count. It was then Dany made a choice there and then, not for the Iron throne, not for gold and greed. No she drew the line in the sand, and said no more, this shit ends now. You don't get to kidnap, rape, murder and enslave people anymore, no more babies are getting murdered for your training exercises, no more kids are being thrown to Bears, you will not harm these people anymore, this shit stops now. But for some fans the atrocity is the poor slavers. No concern again for the slaves and the crimes against humanity the slavers have committed for thousands of years, oh no your concerned about the slavers. That's not disturbing at all, fuck Dany and the slaves it's the poor slavers you are concerned about, because they must be innocent.

Yunkai made it's choice as well, she gave it to them and Meereen, end this practice, stop this cruelty and let these people go. Meereen answered by butchering 163 innocents. A 163 children that some fans of the books won't stand up for, no they stand up for the 163 slavers. Oh man look what she did to those slavers how cruel. What about the slaves? Guess what the actions of the slavers had a consequence. Look you support the slavers, and even they didn't think this was to harsh for the children they butchered, so why is it to harsh for them? They were cool with it right before it happened to them, doing whatever they want to people was just fine till Dany started kicking their ass for it. Then it wasn't right. Well I mean for them it's still ok to do it to slaves. Dany and her little rebellion, isn't it cute how the slaves think they are people with rights? They think they are people, do you think it is like a dog watching TV, just so cute? Its not, it's nothing like that at all, it's an abomination what slavers do.

The best is one fan on this site, said she could easily fix the problems in Meereen and made a list. Now the first or second order on the list was kill the child hostages who are innocent of wrong doing, even had a ratio of one to one saying that his would not piss anyone off. This same person could care less about the 163 children that got butchered but is up in arms about the 163 slavers. Let me be clear here, killing children does not solve problems. Because some of you and the slavers in book seem to be confused by this. It's a bad thing don't do it. Now you may be wondering how do I know all 163 were slavers? Well your not going to believe this but Martin labeled them, you can actually find out who slave masters are because Martin actually labeled them.

Don't worry fans and defenders of the slavers, Martin does not need you to stand up for the slaves, that's what Dany is for. You can kiss your slavers goodbye, because I have seen what Martin does to slavers in books. The Old Ghiscari Empire, Valyria, Harrenhal, even Jorah saw his past come back and haunt him, and now the slaver cities. He is not doing this to show how bad or cruel Dany is, oh you better think twice about that. Greyworm refers to the day the slavers took him as the unluckiest day of his life and the day Dany arrived as the luckiest. The salves call her Mother. You know why? Because she is their hero.

You know what Martin has shown? Actions and choices have consequences. He does not like slavers, he appears to hate them, he keeps destroying them and he is not messing around either, he lets them be as bad as slavers have been known to be and he makes them pay for it. He gives them a chance, hey stop this shit, and when they don't he destroys them. Do you think the author is really sitting there going gosh Dany shouldn't be doing this to the slavers? Seriously? How much you want bet when she is done with the slavers, she will be even more powerful, the dragons will be even bigger, her army will have grown in volunteers and she will move towards that steaming pile of shit that is Westeros, because their is a lot of ass kicking that needs doing in Westeros, and Dany is the authors ass kicker.

You ever noticed that Martin does not like people messing with Dany?

1. Vis, because of something Drogo did he threatened her life. Now he is dead
2. Miri fucked with Dany. Dead and Dany got Dragons.
3. Robert tried to have her wine poisoned. What happened to his wine again?
4. Jorah and Selmy, one said sorry and the other didn't. Jorah didn't do so well after that, also the slavery thing came full circle, cause Martin does not like slavers.
5. The undying tried to kill her. Bye bye house of the undying, have fun as a pile of ashes Pyat.
6. Quin tried to steal her dragons. We call him crispy.
7. That slave Master in Astapor who showed her the Unsullied. Not only was he total scum, along with the rest of the slavers, but Martin made a rather famous example of him. You know why? Yep, he don't like slavers. He didn't even give them the option, they got the hammer of the author. Made sure you knew how bad they were though.

Plenty of shit heads still left to get checked off the list to. Yunkai, Volantis, Illyrio, Xaro, Hiz, the Dothraki, Qarth. You can go ahead and check most of them off the list, they are not going to make it. Dothraki look like they are probably going to flip for the Stallion that mounts the world. Just so happens she is a girl, hey maybe the prince is actually a princess. Not role reversal, not Martin he would never do that.

Dany is the authors reaction to others really bad actions, you notice she is constantly growing in power because of this. She is the oncoming storm and the slavers are feeding her with their actions. How many lives have the slavers taken, how many rapes, how many children murdered, how many babies killed in their mothers arms, how many kidnappings, how many tortured, abused and disfigured, all for power and greed? Innocent slavers? They are not innocent because they are slavers, it's the slaves the author cares about not the slavers. That's why he sent the big gun to deal with them. Martin said it the dragon is the most powerful piece on the board. At what point in the books are the slavers depicted as innocent? Dany is the retribution of the slaves, the reckoning of 163 innocent children who were murdered for spite. She never made the slavers do what they did, that was their choice. It was the slavers who called down the thunder and now they got it. The slavers are not the damn Starks, they didn't get screwed, they got what they deserved and they are not done getting either.

After she is done with them, it's going to be huge volunteer army probably keep a decent amount of gold from the cities on to Westeros. Which reminds me, you must have figured out why Martin put the crown in debt to Braavos? Lets see Dany ships and will have probably a good amount of gold from the ultra rich slaver cities. Braavos has ships, they also have the debt of Westeros. Illyrio did not pay it off for Aegon, Stannis wants to borrow money and so does Jon. Seems like a pretty simple deal to figure out. Pay the debt, then go collect the debt in what will probably be a death ridden arctic waste land, cause they are coming to.

I know, I know she is really coming to Westeros to kill all the children and babies. She doesn't stand up for the oppressed people like the slavers at all, she is all about those greedy slaves. Just pure evil, that's what she is. [end of quote]

[Nictarion]

I get that... What I don't get is her making that difference. So, again, the issue about "slavery is bad, all slaves are the same" is also with Daenerys. She literally said it to Xaro.

And i don't agree with her viewpoint at that time.

[Mithras]

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

Dany fans proudly claim that Dany knows what it means to be sold like a slave because of her marriage to Drogo. That was not so different than a usual arranged marriage in Westeros.

I think Tyrion is 100x times more of an authority about slavery than Dany and he has observed the whole thing from perspectives Dany could never hope to have.

Dany was never sold at an auction. She was not whipped for insolence and disobedience. She did not have to take buckets of shit under a ruin of a man. Her pride was never wounded by riding a pig in a mock joust. She was not about to be fed to lions too.

She had no power in Qarth. If she had 8000 Unsuliied at the time I'm not so sure XXD would have been allowed to keep his slaves.

Dany disagrees.

“Whence came this madness? Should I count myself fortunate that you did not free my own slaves when you were my guest in Qarth?”

I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. “Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened.”

[Mladen]

And i don't agree with her viewpoint at that time.

You mean in ADWD? Because the conversation takes place in Meereen, written in ADWD, Daenerys II, if I am not mistaken.

[Nictarion]

Thanks for posting it Kyoshi. :cheers:

I think it's a great post. Ser Creighton's usually are.

[Mikkel]

Wasn't my favorite decision Dany ever made, but did she really have a right to tell the people who wanted to sell themselves no? She didn't own them after all.

No, I don't think she did - did she have the right to kill their masters and destroy the economy and way of life of an entire region, leaving a sham of a government behind that promptly collapsed into a living hell?

[Nictarion]

Dany fans proudly claim that Dany knows what it means to be sold like a slave because of her marriage to Drogo. That was not so different than a usual arranged marriage in Westeros.

I think Tyrion is 100x times more of an authority about slavery than Dany and he has observed the whole thing from perspectives Dany could never hope to have.

Dany was never sold at an auction. She was not whipped for insolence and disobedience. She did not have to take buckets of shit under a ruin of a man. Her pride was never wounded by riding a pig in a mock joust. She was not about to be fed to lions too.

Dany disagrees.

“Whence came this madness? Should I count myself fortunate that you did not free my own slaves when you were my guest in Qarth?”

I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. “Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened.”

Dany was lucky Drogo fell for her. She could have ended up being passed around to Drogo's blood riders. I don't think girls in political marriages have to worry about that. Nor are married at 13.

[OldGimletEye]

I didn't know Tyrion's brief stint as a slave made him an authority on the matter.

Also I think it's pretty obvious what GRRM feelings on slavery are. Ser Creighton made a good post a little while back pointing out the fates of the slaving societies have not been good.

Old Ghis - destroyed

Valyria - destroyed

Astapor - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

Yunkai - surrendered to Daenerys Targaryen

Meereen - conquered by Daenerys Targaryen

I see a pattern developing. With Dany likely uniting all the Khalasars in WoW I think the rest of the slaving cities in Essos better look the fuck out.

Well, I am quite certain that GRRM isn't some kind of frickin Dixiecrat pinning his heart out about “good ol' days” or bitching about the “War of Northern Aggression”. I am sure he detest the institution of slavery like anybody else in the 21^st Century.

But, I don't think he wants to present the issues confronting Dany as being simple. I think he does want us as readers to analyze the issues that Dany is presented with. Given GRRM's apparent attitude about war, I don't think he wants to present Dany's war as being purely black or white.

Also, some here apparently think GRRM is trying to lecture us about the evils of slavery. I don't that is what he is trying to do here. I don't think think he is trying to lecture us about anything. Instead, I think his intent is to present us with very tough questions and have us decide for ourselves what the answer should be.

And I highly doubt all the Dothraki are going to be turned into a bunch of crusading abolitionist. I think this view is very naive.

[Nictarion]

No, I don't think she did - did she have the right to kill their masters and destroy the economy and way of life of an entire region, leaving a sham of a government behind that promptly collapsed into a living hell?

Yes. Someone had to. Destruction of something evil is a good thing, Regardless how messy the process is.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

@ser creighton: lol this post is amazing, has said more than I could ever say alone.