Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[MandrakeWench]

I concur that it is fat better, from my view, to work a low wage job and struggle for a living, and be free, as opposed to being a slave.

I also think it's best that I have a relationship with my husband where we are equals, and he does not get to be The Lord of the house just because he is a man.

But there are many contemporary women who disagree with me, and want their husbands to be the "headship" of the household, making all important life decisions.

To me that is also like slavery, slavery to a spouse. True, it is not a legalized institution at this time - but it was until very recently.

Should women trapped in relationships with domineering men also be forcibly freed, even if they want to stay?

I've never been in a situation where I was starving to death. I wonder, if I was, would it make the idea of slavery, or a domineering husband, in exchange for a meal seem more appealing?

I don't know, but I suspect grrm wrote his books this way so that we would ask these kinds of questions.

[Mithras]

But, I don't think he wants to present the issues confronting Dany as being simple. I think he does want us as readers to analyze the issues that Dany is presented with. Given GRRM's apparent attitude about war, I don't think he wants to present Dany's war as being purely black and white.

Completely agreed.

And I highly doubt all the Dothraki are going to be turned into a bunch of crusading abolitionist. I think this view is very naive.

This too. More like Dany’s giant khalassar will leave behind great pyramids of heads instead of taking slaves or hostages.

[Mladen]

snip

I am sorry, as much as I know there are people who like Ser Creighton and his work (Corn Code, ahem ahem), that was simply just bad post... With quite numerous fallacies... I understand, Dany fans don't want to discuss 163 killed people in Astapor, AND her enforcing the torture AND her making differences between slaves AND her problematic reign AND her delusions about RR AND political chaos she created in SB AND whole bunch of things

Once again, prime example of intellectual dishonesty...

Yes. Someone had to. Destruction of something evil is a good thing, Regardless how messy the process is.

Actually no...

Destruction of something evil AND replacing with something good is a good thing.

Destruction of something evil AND creating chaos is not a good thing.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't know, but I suspect grrm wrote his books this way so that we would ask these kinds of questions.

Exactly. I think GRRM loves to create these very difficult ethical knots and then invite us to try to untangle them.

[Nictarion]

And I highly doubt all the Dothraki are going to be turned into a bunch of crusading abolitionist. I think this view is very naive.

I doubt anyone would have suspected the Dothraki would follow a woman either. Yet after hatching the dragons "Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo’s".

[OldGimletEye]

I doubt anyone would have suspected the Dothraki would follow a woman either. Yet after hatching the dragons "Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo’s".

If you want to believe that Dany will turn the Dothraki into a morally righteous horde, who will help little old ladies cross the street when they aren't battling slavery, then OK. Seems a little too convenient for Dany, particularly since in GRRM's world nobody gets want they exactly want. I am not sure why Dany is any different.

[Mladen]

I doubt anyone would have suspected the Dothraki would follow a woman either. Yet after hatching the dragons "Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo’s".

OK, you are using fallacy here... The argument you responded is about Dothraki culture and one of the main things in it - they are also slavers. Them backing up this quest in which they, proud horselords are the same with Unsullied, is quite the naive... You discussed something completely different and more than that, you argue that they follow Dany because she is a female. No, they follow her because of those dragons. Because, in this world, dragons actually meant power.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I am sorry, as much as I know there are people who like Ser Creighton and his work (Corn Code, ahem ahem), that was simply just bad post... With quite numerous fallacies... I understand, Dany fans don't want to discuss 163 killed people in Astapor, AND her enforcing the torture AND her making differences between slaves AND her problematic reign AND her delusions about RR AND political chaos she created in SB AND whole bunch of things

Once again, prime example of intellectual dishonesty...

That it's certainly true that there is room for extensive criticism, white washing her is just as bad as black washing.

But standing to my own personal feelings, I can't help but feel on being with her on her choice to purse slave freedom.

[Nictarion]

Actually no...

Destruction of something evil AND replacing with something good is a good thing.

Destruction of something evil AND creating chaos is not a good thing.

People not having to worry about their children being fed to animals , or made into bed slaves is a good thing in my book. And it wasn't chaos. That's a complete exaggeration. She brought peace to Meereen until Drogon showed up in the pit.

[Nictarion]

If you want to believe that Dany will turn the Dothraki into a morally righteous horde, who will help little old ladies cross the street when they aren't battling slavery, then OK. Seems a little too convenient for Dany, particularly since in GRRM's world nobody gets want they exactly want. I am not sure why Dany is any different.

I'm not claiming anything of the sort. Merely that the Dothraki will not take or sell slaves under Dany's rule, They're still going to kill thousands and bring destruction. I just don't see rape and slavery being allowed. And if they see her as TStMtW, I think they will obey her.

[Mikkel]

Yes. Someone had to. Destruction of something evil is a good thing, Regardless how messy the process is.

That's an opinion. I don't agree - I think there's such a thing as too high a cost, and a wrong way to destroy an evil. I also think there's too little actual difference to the man on the floor whether the world-shattering decisions made on his or her behalf comes from Dany or someone else - in either case, it's made without consulting that person, and without their consent.

I also think all the claims of wanting to die before accepting slavery are a little too easy to make if you haven't actually tried it.

People not having to worry about their children being fed to animals , or made into bed slaves is a good thing in my book. And it wasn't chaos. That's a complete exaggeration. She brought peace to Meereen until Drogon showed up in the pit.

Meereen - yes, somewhat peaceful. Other than the whole deal with the Harpy. In any case it's hardly prosperous though, what with starvation and sickness running rampant.

What about Astapor though? (no, Dany does not get to destroy thousands of lives for practice over and over until she gets lucky/gets it right. Meereen is better than Astapor, but it's not "getting it right").

[Nictarion]

OK, you are using fallacy here... The argument you responded is about Dothraki culture and one of the main things in it - they are also slavers. Them backing up this quest in which they, proud horselords are the same with Unsullied, is quite the naive... You discussed something completely different and more than that, you argue that they follow Dany because she is a female. No, they follow her because of those dragons. Because, in this world, dragons actually meant power.

I didn't say they follow her because she's female, I said they follow her despite it, Which would be just as strange to them as not raping or taking slaves.

[Mithras]

Destruction of something evil AND replacing with something good is a good thing.

Destruction of something evil AND creating chaos is not a good thing.

Simply this.

I understand, Dany fans don't want to discuss 163 killed people in Astapor Meereen, AND her enforcing the torture AND her making differences between slaves slavers AND her problematic reign AND her delusions about RR AND political chaos she created in SB AND whole bunch of things

yet they gladly claim that Dany is a grey character and love her for that.

People not having to worry about their children being fed to animals , or made into bed slaves is a good thing in my book. And it wasn't chaos. That's a complete exaggeration. She brought peace to Meereen until Drogon showed up in the pit.

The bolded part is a complete denial of Dany’s arc in ADwD. Astapor is a complete chaos. Meereen was living terror due to Harpy killings. Her "peace" is a sign of defeat. She gets nothing in return of destroying everything she accomplished as Mhysa.

[Mladen]

That it's certainly true that there is room for extensive criticism, white washing her is just as bad as black washing.

But standing to my own personal feelings, I can't help but feel on being with her on her choice to purse slave freedom.

Look, no one here is pro-slavery and defending slavers just because of Daenerys (which is what that post implies). That is just one bad strawman argument. When you realize that Dany in ADWD, after entire SB campaign allows many thing that are against slave freedoms, or basically individual human rights, like her making the difference between slaves who are being treated well and those who are ill-treated, her blindspot for some other places where slavery is enforced, her being OK with some questionable issues... Simply, that post is perhaps the best example of using strawman arguments to cover huge fallacies in thinking process. Anyone who is talking about some questionable choices is subjected to accusations of being pro-slavery, slaver fans etc... That is why my opinion about that post is not that high... It had some good snippets, but overall it is a bad strawman discussion, that disallows any creative discussion about Daenerys.

People not having to worry about their children being fed to animals , or made into bed slaves is a good thing in my book. And it wasn't chaos. That's a complete exaggeration. She brought peace to Meereen until Drogon showed up in the pit.

Oh, I am exaggerating? LOL... About that peace, apparently I have to remind you about Sons of Harpy and their escapades on streets of Meereen. Dany brought peace? No. The war moved on streets, in pyramids, in whole Meereen. If you try to paint that Meereen was peaceful place before Drogon, then you will have to find far better arguments to convince me.

I didn't say they follow her because she's female, I said they follow her despite it, Which would be just as strange to them as not raping or taking slaves.

Well, I know what you meant, and her gender played no role. Her dragons did. And also, she had less than 100 Dothraki, of which most of them were old men, women and children. They can be easily submitted to her will. But, huge khalasars of 30/40/50 000 men are not going to be that complaint. You equalize Dany's khalasar with the likes of Jhago or Pono has. That is simply oversimplification of situation.

[Arakan]

Dany the White Messiah...kidding ;)

Obviously slavery is totally despicable from our pov, no question about that...

Hej but you know what? So is the parasitic institution of feudalism which is basically the exploitation of the 99% by the 1% :P.

Everyone who cries DANY THE HERO! FECK THE SLAVERS! FECK SLAVERY! should look into a mirror and ask themselves how they can wish her (if they do) to ascend to the Iron Throne, the core of the parasitic system of feudalism :).

Never did I read of any of these Dany fans that she should abolish feudalism in Westeros as well, that she should melt down this ugly Throne...

Au contraire...what I read is how it is her BLOOD right to rule over millions of people...

You know what I call this? HYPOCRISY I call that :).

I guess one explanation for this is that we have a lot of Americans on this forum. For them slavery is not an abstract concept but something which affects their society up to this day. Whereas feudalism often gets romanticised in the US (we see it everyday in Hollywood), simply because they cannot relate to it the same way as they can relate to slavery.

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for posting it Kyoshi. :cheers:

I think it's a great post. Ser Creighton's usually are.

Very brilliant post :cheers:

[Mikkel]

Let's not turn this into a quote-fest circlejerk, please? :)

[Nictarion]

Oh, I am exaggerating? LOL... About that peace, apparently I have to remind you about Sons of Harpy and their escapades on streets of Meereen. Dany brought peace? No. The war moved on streets, in pyramids, in whole Meereen. If you try to paint that Meereen was peaceful place before Drogon, then you will have to find far better arguments to convince me.

Well, I know what you meant, and her gender played no role. Her dragons did. And also, she had less than 100 Dothraki, of which most of them were old men, women and children. They can be easily submitted to her will. But, huge khalasars of 30/40/50 000 men are not going to be that complaint. You equalize Dany's khalasar with the likes of Jhago or Pono has. That is simply oversimplification of situation.

She brought peace by making a sacrifice and marrying Hizdahr.

Drogo's blood riders were not old or sickly, and they went against a sacred custom by choosing not to follow Drogo into the Night Lands.

[The Drunkard]

Let's not turn this into a quote-fest circlejerk, please? :)

10/10 would read again.

[Kyoshi]

No, I don't think she did - did she have the right to kill their masters and destroy the economy and way of life of an entire region, leaving a sham of a government behind that promptly collapsed into a living hell?

Somewhere in my heart, I die when a slavery-based way of life is seen as having legs to stand on, as deserving to survive and prosper, to continue. It was a way of life for the slavers, a prison for the slaves.