Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[Hodor's Dragon]

He is LC of the NW, any NW that disobey his orders will answer for it. It is not at all similar to leaving three people and no army on their own to "rule". He is the one who is directing EVERYTHING, he is deciding who goes where and who does what. He's attempting to carry out his vision. Unlike Dany, who is deluded that saying "ya'll free now have fun" is reasonable or responsible.

You should answer the question I directed to you earlier: other than allowing slavery to continue unchanged, what was Dany's alternative? It sure wasn't "legislation."

I say her alternatives were (1) do nothing, and (2) do what she did. Please either give me a realistic alternative, or pick one of those two.

[Cas Stark]

OK, I understand your POV. I disagree. Cleon did not have an army or soldiers when he took over Astapor. He simply saw a weakness and exploited it. That is not Dany's fault, that is the mistake of the council of three (whom we know almost nothing about). Did Dany make Cleon take over Astapor?

Were the Council of Three incapable of hiring their own soldiers?

I suspect yes. The Council of Three didn't have any money to hire soldiers, and where would they get them from? She has taken ALL of the unsullied and the Second Sons. Who are they going to hire? And since the slaver's bay economy is in shambles, what are they going to pay anyone with?

Again, these are all easy problems to foresee if you bother to spend even AN HOUR on your plan of liberation.

[TheWitch]

Dragons are probably her magical destiny, she only hatched them because of this. She nearly died in the red waste, and fell into the hands of corrupt Qartheen, and now has warlocks after her. She deceived the masters of Astaphor she wasn't given the unsullied and then conquered slavers bay. Whilst she's been there the economy has failed, she's in a war with other cities and the sons of the harpy. She has an iron fleet wanting to kidnap her, forced to marry a man who wanted to overthrow her and her dragons became near untameable. She lost a baby and doubts she can conceive again, not to mention being made paranoid by quathies prophecys. Saying everything's great for Dany is really not true.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

He is LC of the NW, any NW that disobey his orders will answer for it. It is not at all similar to leaving three people and no army on their own to "rule". He is the one who is directing EVERYTHING, he is deciding who goes where and who does what. He's attempting to carry out his vision. Unlike Dany, who is deluded that saying "ya'll free now have fun" is reasonable or responsible.

I was not talking about the NWmen. I was talking about the wildlings that JOn let through and caused trouble. No one the wildlings killed or raped south of the wall could rightly blame Jon. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Rulers have to make decisions based on what they believe is best for the majority, which is what Dany did when she left Astapor, she put a council in charge and hoped for the best. Were their better ways to handle it, possibly, but she cannot predict the future, hindsight is 20/20.

[Cas Stark]

You should answer the question I directed to you earlier: other than allowing slavery to continue unchanged, what was Dany's alternative? It sure wasn't "legislation."

I say her alternatives were (1) do nothing, and (2) do what she did. Please either give me a realistic alternative, or pick one of those two.

Stay in Astapor until it's stable. This gives her time to put together an actual plan of what she wants to do with the other two cities....wherein she might have foreseen various other calamities that occured such as a city of bed slaves all following her because they have no other marketable skills other than being sex workers....and so on. She might have reached out to the Iron Bank...asked them to send some emissaries to help her with the economy.

The worst possible and most irresponsible thing she could have done is ride off into the sunset congratulating herself on freeing the slaves and then destroying two more cities with no more plan than she had the first time.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I suspect yes. The Council of Three didn't have any money to hire soldiers, and where would they get them from? She has taken ALL of the unsullied and the Second Sons. Who are they going to hire? And since the slaver's bay economy is in shambles, what are they going to pay anyone with?

Again, these are all easy problems to foresee if you bother to spend even AN HOUR on your plan of liberation.

Could you please show me the evidence from the text that backs up these claims? Where does it say the council had no money?

And since Asatapor was the first SB city Dany went to, I dont think there was time to declare the entire economy was 'in shambles'. that would be a future problem, well after Astapor.

[Cas Stark]

I was not talking about the NWmen. I was talking about the wildlings that JOn let through and caused trouble. No one the wildlings killed or raped south of the wall could rightly blame Jon. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Rulers have to make decisions based on what they believe is best for the majority, which is what Dany did when she left Astapor, she put a council in charge and hoped for the best. Were their better ways to handle it, possibly, but she cannot predict the future, hindsight is 20/20.

Sure they can. I would say absolutely if the wildlings go nuts and start a killing and burning spree south of the Wall that Jon Snow would rightly be blamed for it, for failing to put proper controls in place, because it is only due to his decision that they would be south of the wall. But, it would have to be a large scale type of mayhem, where it would be seen that all or almost all of the wildlings that he let through had acted this way, a couple random crimes here and there is not the same.

[Cas Stark]

Could you please show me the evidence from the text that backs up these claims? Where does it say the council had no money?

And since Asatapor was the first SB city Dany went to, I dont think there was time to declare the entire economy was 'in shambles'. that would be a future problem, well after Astapor.

Where would they get money? The city was ruled by the Masters. She killed the Masters. So there is no central treasury that we are away of...the economy is based on slaves, of which, they have none now.

I will turn it around, where in the text is there anything that remotely indicates they DID have some type of access to money?

And again, even IF they do have money, what soldiers are they going to hire? She has the Second Sons, she has the Unsullied, Griff has the Golden Company. Where would they get a bunch of soldiers ASAP as soon as they took over?

[El Guapo]

Where would they get money? The city was ruled by the Masters. She killed the Masters. So there is no central treasury that we are away of...the economy is based on slaves, of which, they have none now.

I will turn it around, where in the text is there anything that remotely indicates they DID have some type of access to money?

There is textual evidence that says they had access to money nor is there any textual evidence to say that they didn't. So making assumptions either way is kind of pointless.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Where would they get money? The city was ruled by the Masters. She killed the Masters. So there is no central treasury that we are away of...the economy is based on slaves, of which, they have none now.

I will turn it around, where in the text is there anything that remotely indicates they DID have some type of access to money?

Astapor was a wealthy city, right? There's no textual evidence that Dany took their gold. It seems more as if she grabbed the Unsullied and headed on down the road. The Unsullied were the ones who killed the masters and overthrew the government, and they were fanatically disciplined. I don't remember any later scenes of any of the Unsullied sporting stolen items.

So if we have to write the scene, let's write it realistically. I certainly wouldn't consider it consistent with the Dany character for her to scam off with all the gold and leave Astapor without a stamp for necessaries. I can see her taking some gold because she will need it to fund her military operations.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Where would they get money? The city was ruled by the Masters. She killed the Masters. So there is no central treasury that we are away of...the economy is based on slaves, of which, they have none now.

I will turn it around, where in the text is there anything that remotely indicates they DID have some type of access to money?

I was not claiming they had money. But you specifically said they were broke, which you don't know for sure, but it helps your argument.

Like I said, we know almost nothing about the council of three. My stance is that it was a good idea and good intentions. If Cleon felt that he needed to kill them all and enslave the former masters and take the high-born boys to make Unsullied; his actions speak volumes about the feelings of the working class in Astapor under the rule of the Masters. Cleon was made this way from a lifetime of living in this monstrosity of a city. That has nothing at all to do with Dany.

[SeanF]

I, on the other hand, think we need to examine the question from a different angle.Dany has the awareness that slavery is a moral wrong, and the ability to change that situation. (Put aside how she comes by these, for a second - though I do think it's worth noting that the main thing that actually allows her to change the situation is a willingness to roll the dice, at considerable risk to her own life.)Does she have a responsibility to do something about it?What would we think of her if she walked away? Considerably less, I'd suggest. In this event, the argument that she shouldn't do anything because she didn't have an alternative economic plan would be (rightly) regarded as pretty weak.Ethical questions of this type are more about responsibilities than they are rights, IMHO anyway. If you have an ethical responsibility to act, you have more than a right. You have a duty. Rights become secondary to that.Dany accepts responsibility for a situation where countless others have simply walked away or taken advantage of it for their own ends. This, I think, makes her act ethical, whether or not it has some negative

consequences.

All interesting questions (to which I don't have definitive answers).

My impression, however, is that a Daenerys who coolly concluded that there was nothing useful she could do, and walked away from Slavers Bay, would garner a lot of respect.

The shadow of the Iraq War hangs over this debate.

[Cas Stark]

I was not claiming they had money. But you specifically said they were broke, which you don't know for sure, but it helps your argument.

Like I said, we know almost nothing about the council of three. My stance is that it was a good idea and good intentions. If Cleon felt that he needed to kill them all and enslave the former masters and take the high-born boys to make Unsullied; his actions speak volumes about the feelings of the working class in Astapor under the rule of the Masters. Cleon was made this way from a lifetime of living in this monstrosity of a city. That has nothing at all to do with Dany.

Let's be clear. You asked why the Council would be incapable of hiring their own soldiers. I gave you an answer that I didn't see either where they would get any money...since Astapor's slave economy is ended or where they would find soldiers if they did have money.

Or maybe Cleon was just the typical bloodthirsty thug that can prosper and rise when chaos rules and there is a power vacuum. And maybe he enslaved the nobles because he, like everyone else in Astapor has no idea what they do to make money other than slavery....and he needed money to rule....because there was none.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Let's be clear. You asked why the Council would be incapable of hiring their own soldiers. I gave you an answer that I didn't see either where they would get any money...since Astapor's slave economy is ended or where they would find soldiers if they did have money.

Or maybe Cleon was just the typical bloodthirsty thug that can prosper and rise when chaos rules and there is a power vacuum. And maybe he enslaved the nobles because he, like everyone else in Astapor has no idea what they do to make money other than slavery....and he needed money to rule....because there was none.

That is too specific for us to know. tyrion joined the Second Sons without a dime, I am not going to pretend to know the specifics of the financial situation in Astapor, only that many things happened after Dany left that had nothing to do with her and were beyond her control, people can be viscous, that is also not her fault.

[Arakan]

@ Cas Stark

May the warrior give you strenght in your fight ;)

Needless to say that I support your arguments.

As this discussion made a 360 degree turn (back to where it all started) I wont join in again. Your points about the Astapor aftermath are very correct...that was her fuck up. Yes she showed good Intentions with the 3 man Council. But good intentions dont absolve Dany from her responsibility...

IF users like Suzana, Hodor etc. could just ONE TIME acknowledge "yes Astapor in the aftermath was a fuck up" WITHOUT the obligatory "but"...

People do stuff, people must take responsibility for that stuff WITHOUT any "buts"...

[Hodor's Dragon]

@ Cas Stark

May the warrior give you strenght in your fight ;)

Needless to say that I support your arguments.

As this discussion made a 360 degree turn (back to where it all started) I wont join in again. Your points about the Astapor aftermath are very correct...that was her fuck up. Yes she showed good Intentions with the 3 man Council. But good intentions dont absolve Dany from her responsibility...

IF users like Suzana, Hodor etc. could just ONE TIME acknowledge "yes Astapor in the aftermath was a fuck up" WITHOUT the obligatory "but"...

People do stuff, people must take responsibility for that stuff WITHOUT any "buts"...

I don't believe in "responsibility without buts." Life is complicated. There's no reason to pretend otherwise. Few important decisions are either undeniably correct or undeniably incorrect, there are almost always "buts," and they're generally worth considering if you want to truly learn what can be learned from the decision.

Dany made lots of mistakes in Astapor. Elsewhere, too. The question isn't whether she has made mistakes, it's whether she will learn from them.

In hindsight, she could and should have stuck around in Astapor, but that's not the subject of this thread. This thread is about whether she should've just let the status quo stand. I'll give a big, rousing "no" to that one.

[WSmith84]

Practicing torture? IIRC correctly she gave the ok to Skahaz one time to question the wineseller, you can hardly call that 'practicing'. Especially since Dany herself was not even in the room at the time, nor was the 'questioning' her idea or suggestion, that falls on Skahaz. Skahaz practices torture, Dany ordered it once after 9 of men had just been slaughtered, there is a big difference.

Yeah, I'm not giving Dany kudos for not being present whilst the torture occurred. In fact, I am going to take points away from her. If you order someone to be tortured, you had better be present for it. For one, the Shavepate is clearly a sadist, so Dany needs to be there to reign him in and make sure he's not just torturing for fun or to extract a false confession. Secondly, it is an act of supreme moral cowardice to order something unpleasant and then turn your eyes away from it. Oh and Dany didn't just order torture that one time. She also has the Shavepate torture people they suspect of being Sons of the Harpy. They, of course, confess, because they have a sadist torturing them and Dany doesn't sit in on the torture to listen to them. The Shavepate brings her so many confessions that she begins to doubt the worth of them. So Dany does learn a lesson, which I'm sure will be a great comfort to the tortured.

[Cas Stark]

I don't believe in "responsibility without buts." Life is complicated. There's no reason to pretend otherwise. Few important decisions are either undeniably correct or undeniably incorrect, there are almost always "buts," and they're generally worth considering if you want to truly learn what can be learned from the decision.

Dany made lots of mistakes in Astapor. Elsewhere, too. The question isn't whether she has made mistakes, it's whether she will learn from them.

In hindsight, she could and should have stuck around in Astapor, but that's not the subject of this thread. This thread is about whether she should've just let the status quo stand. I'll give a big, rousing "no" to that one.

We can't know the answer to that until GRRM finishes the Meereen arc.

Me, personally, I don't think he's going to be able to come up with a solution that leaves Slaver's Bay in good shape that is going to be very realistic. The entire place is destroyed and plague ridden and everyone soon to also be starving.

The two most realistic outcomes would be (1) Dany stays in Meereen, for a long time, like a decade at least. (2) Slaver's Bay is left a smoking ruin.

But, I suspect we will get door number (3) a wild a crazy solution that let's her leave SB in good hands and a sense that it's stabilizing and moving forward. He's going to have a tough time convincing me this could ever happen.

[RoamingRonin]

I would say that this is pretty clearly an analogy to Guantanamo Bay, and it's very clear that we're supposed to differentiate between Shavepate (routine torturer) and Dany (one-time/occasional torturer for extra-special reasons).

Personally, I'm anti-Guantanamo and anti-winesellers' daughters torture, but I don't put those actions in the same boat as people who have special torture chambers and routinely torture people to solve crimes or just to learn something they want to know. Sometimes Dany's errors seem to be on the side of harshness, consistent with being from a line of conquerors who practice fire and blood; as a fan, I hope she's learned some lessons about that, and there are reasons in the text both to think that she has and that she hasn't.

But you could also put it more generously and say that Dany is more likely to err by action than inaction. That's a hallmark of great leaders throughout history, especially great military leaders. It leads to mistakes, but it also leads to accomplishments that couldn't happen without a bold and decisive leader out in front.

No, it's not. GRRM said in an interview that he does not like thinly veiled analogies and that Dany in Slaver's Bay is not based off America's occupation and/or the War on Terror.

[SeanF]

No, it's not. GRRM said in an interview that he does not like thinly veiled analogies and that Dany in Slaver's Bay is not based off America's occupation and/or the War on Terror.

For sure. But, I think many readers are going to view Dany in Slavers Bay through this prism.

In no sense it is an easy question to answer. Do you allow appalling evils to be carried out? Or do you intervene, but risk making things worse? Dany worries repeatedly that she's making things worse.