Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[I'm the Party Pooper]

it is known that some ant and bee species practice slavery too.

Well, this is a top level superficial observation.

Bees and ants do not kill their slaves for amusement of the wealthy, they do not rape for the pleasure of doing it, don't grow superiority feelings or perform discrimination acts toward their slaves, they do not rip their slaves breasts to show off how good and well trained their slaves are since they do not rebel, they do not force each slave to kill a puppy and an infant to test their own insensibility and kill those too soft to do it, they do not sell them, they do not torture them, they do not crucifix them at whim.

Slavery has a strongly negative characterization because it is historically OFTEN associated to all forms of abuses of human rights. Slavery isn't evil because priests preach it on Sunday morning. It's evil because people suffering it over the course of centuries have rebelled over and over until human rights have been recognised to them.

To the memory of those millions of people died and who have shed their blood to grant us the freedom we can't appreciate.. it should be respectful not calling it anything less than abhorrent evil. People have chosen death and martyr over it, this is no fairy tale.

It's the idea at the basis of slavery, that a human being can be an exclusive property, that enacts and allows any form of abuses.

Greek slaverism does not reassemble from afar what has been depicted into ASOIAF, so it shouldn't even being mentioned here.

If you people are so confident that this living system is not so bad, you should consider trying it on your own skin first, up to its most extreme consequences.

[sabrecmc]

I think you can believe slavery is Eeeevil while also thinking Dany did a terrible job at attempting to eradicate it. These are not mutually exclusive.

I do sympathize with Dany for actually doing something instead of just ignoring a giant wrong in the world because fixing it is too complicated. That is actually quite impressive for a girl of her age.

However, some of her actions (the 163, telling the Unsullied to kill everyone in robe or whatever it was, torture of the wineseller's daughters, etc.) make her anger with the slavers a lot less sympathetic. She has a warped sense of justice that looks a lot like revenge. Her lack of self-awareness is just plain annoying.

[No Song so Sweet]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but the film Manderlay has the same exact topic

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

I have read some of you guys' points, and I agree with half of them. I just wanted to point out, before I continue to make my comment, that Dany's whole slave-freeing quest was NOT based on her good heart, or her inconditional love for every humen beign in the world. She did all what she is doing because of two events in her life:

1. Eroeh. Yes, that little slave who got gang raped and then killed was the whole reason why dany thought badly of slavery... Yes, she was rescuing the Lamb Women from the Dothraki, only because they were being raped. Repeatedly. And without mercy, or respect, or even "normal sex". They were being violently raped, and every human beign with half a potato's wits knows this is bad. She just happened to have the power to stop it. Or do you guys think Ser Jorah rejoiced the prospect of watching a thousand people being gang raped?

2. The Slaver, Kraznys mo Nakloz, and the whole Astapor tour. Dany was, as a normal person would, f*&%#ing shattered by the view of Astapor, and the whole slave theme that clinged to it. And then Kraznys puts the Unsullied to fry under the sun, cuts one nipple out of one, and proceeds to call her every swear in the Bastard Valyrian of Astapor, and that is just the right way to get a little girl's heart, isn't it?

Dany was NOT the most pious person since Baelor the Beloved, and wasn't a goddess of kindness. Dany was just an impressed little girl who just happened to have the power (and the wits, as seen in Astapor) to break the shackles that frightened her so much. Because of the delay between books, it is easy to overcome the fact that Dany and Jon are 15 and 17, respectively. I'm 17 too, and I certainly would make as many mistakes Jon made, and more, because he has no experience in the Game of Thrones. Dany also has little experience, and because of that, she will make mistakes too. Like freeing the slaves.

Don't get me wrong, I also think that slavery is a horrible act, and should be ended, but she didn't have a plan. Dany is the perfect example of a ruler who is short minded, or in other words, a ruler who doesn't consider a tomorrow. Dany wants to free the slaves and take them on a dead march beneath the sun of what seems to be a replica of our Egypt's climate, to free MORE slaves, "or, as Ser Jorah calls them, mouths with feet". If Dany took Westeros, and AFTER that, came back and freed the slaves, that is OK, that is beautiful, that is great. She now has a way to defend the slaves, bring to Westeros the ones who want to come, and leave the ones who don't to fend for themselves. In a way, all she would have done was break the shackles, putting wages on people's work, but essentially leaving it all the same. That is the exact way that the slaves were freed in Brazil. They were freed, ok, now they are paid a penny for a day of work, and live in the same conditions. But they are free. That is the difference. The day a former slave can afford to pay people to work for him, the society has changed forever. Dany wouldn't be replacing the slavers with the slaves, she would be giving them the chance to be equal. And that is freedom.

Her campaign is honorable and beautiful and worth a song and all, but if only she had the wits to wait for a riper time to conquer Essos (Just like Westeros is right now; We see, in the end of ADWD, that two of the greatest Yunkai slavers are on the verge of death. I don't have the name of the old one who got crushed by the mob on Drogo's Day, but Yezzan, Tyrion's owner, is knocking on heaven's (hell's) door, and the one who got stomped was really, really old. Had she waited for a power change in Yunkai, the city would be ripe for the taking. Or else: Send someone from Westeros to buy ALL of the Unsullied, just like she did, pay with a dragon(grown), just like she did, but when the time came for the exchange, just say "Oh, the dragon was left in that boat, over the river. Give me the leash and go get it!" Then the transition is made, and Unsullied buthcer everyone, and the end. At the same time, she is attacking Yunkai, or Meereen, or both! Yunkai has bedslaves, Meereen has seven-know-what, and all of them depend on the free companies, Sellswords. Serioulsy, a bag of silver bought the Brave Companions from Lannister to Bolton, imagine what a bag of gold wouldn't do?! Then, with the three slave bitches down, she could just threaten the others into letting slavery go. And, if they try to attack Westeros, or any of the new free cities, why, you have Seven Kingdos and 8.6 thousand Unsullied to help you. It is a serious win-win situation.

In short: Is Dany right to free the slaves? Yes. Should she do it in ASOS or in ADOS(if she wins the IT)? ADOS of course. Free them without the structure to defend them, and you are buying their deaths.

[RoamingRonin]

"The best calumnies are spiced with truth," suggested Qavo, "but the girl's true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slaver's Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water. Behind the Black Wall, lords of ancient blood sleep poorly, listening as their kitchen slaves sharpen their long knives. Slaves grow our food, clean our streets, teach our young. They guard our walls, row our galleys, fight our battles. And now when they look east, they see this young queen shining from afar, this breaker of chains. The Old Blood cannot suffer that. Poor men hate her too. Even the vilest beggar stands higher than a slave. This dragon queen would rob him of that consolation."

Just dropping this quote off here. Make of it what you will.

As soon as people stopped being hunter-gatherers and discovered agriculture, demand for labor increased rapidly. Since then, slavery has been a fact of life and even today different levels of slavery exist. Actually, it is known that some ant and bee species practice slavery too.

With such a historical and natural phenomenon, it is a great mistake to think superficially.

This is extremely unintelligent. My god. Bees and ants?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

@ PaperWeaver

I'm not following how ants and bees practicing slavery makes it a good thing.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Just dropping this quote off here. Make of it what you will.

I don't know. That a spectre is haunting Essos?

A petty bourgeois philistine this vile beggar is :)

[Nictarion]

@ PaperWeaver

I'm not following how ants and bees practicing slavery makes it a good thing.

Lol. Ants have factored into a couple of PW's Dany hate threads recently.

[Mladen]

@ PaperWeaver

I'm not following how ants and bees practicing slavery makes it a good thing.

I don't know. That a spectre is haunting Essos?

A petty bourgeois philistine this vile beggar is :)

Lol. Ants have factored into a couple of PW's Dany hate threads recently.

Do I really have to explain this? It is foreshadowing... Foreshadowing, my dear friends... We only need font and bold letters and voila... Text book...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Do I really have to explain this? It is foreshadowing... Foreshadowing, my dear friends... We only need font and bold letters and voila... Text book...

LOL yea. My post was not responding to this, but well, what can I say...

Sorry PW, this with the ants and bees was a really wtf argument.

[Ser Creighton]

Normally I waltz into one of these threads rip apart arguments and people abandon the thread and change their arguments to try and find some other way to make freeing slaves evil.

But really this is pretty much the slavery is good and people should practice it and accept it thread to end all threads. I would tear it up but really PW you are doing a far better job of ripping your own argument apart. Bees and ants? Really? At this point I think Martin is going to have to pull you aside personally and explain that slavery is a bad thing to you. Or if you think slavery is so great and as you point out it does still exist in the world feel free to volunteer, you can tell the ants and the bees how much you love it.

[UtherSnow]

I'm FREE! I'm Free! And freedom tastes of reality!

I'm Free! I'm free! And I'm waiting for you to follow me!

Daario : I am, my queen.

Dany : Yer wot? I am a Kal-wotsit, mate, not a bloody queen.

Missandei giggles, then starts singing again.

Jon Snow will be a blinding sight to see, as he lies on yonder hillside

First, there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.....

Dany asks : Where did you learn that?

Missandei : Just some bloke, your grace. He sang for FOUR HOURS non-stop as well, your grace.

Varys enters : I warned you what would happen, dear daughter (Oops!)

See what happens when you have freedom? You can write whatever drivel you like.

Now, if I were a slave...... I'd not be able to take the yellow water. I'd not be able to misquote a blooper.

I don't think I'd mind taking The Black. In Essos, that'd mean borrowing a dragon. Uh-oh! I've done a spoiler! I'm one of the other dragon riders!

BA-HUMBUG!!

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I think you can believe slavery is Eeeevil while also thinking Dany did a terrible job at attempting to eradicate it. These are not mutually exclusive.

Absolutely agreed, this line of argument is completely fine with me.

Maybe my rant was unnecessary, and that was just a very bad and unhappy choice of opinion wording from him. Although I had quite an opposite feeling.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who felt that argumentation line as being wrong.

[Ser Creighton]

Just a little bit on Frederick Douglass

One of Douglass' central goals is to debunk the mythology of slavery. Mythologies are institutionalized beliefs or ideologies, often accepted without question by the public. Southerners and some Northerners held certain beliefs about slavery which helped them rationalize its existence.

First, some believed that slavery was justifiable because it seemed to be supported by passages in the Bible (1 Timothy 6:1-2; 1 Peter 2:18; Ephesians 6:5-9; Colossians 3:22-24:1). They pointed to accepted dogma regarding the descendants of Ham (a name traditionally believed to mean "black") being destined for slavery (Genesis 9:18-27). If, however, Douglass asks, the dark skin of Ham is said to be a sign of this curse, then why are mulattos — some of whom have skin not significantly darker than whites — also destined by birth to be slaves? Douglass exposes the hypocritical nature of Southern Christianity by showing that slave owners simultaneously broke the laws of God in their treatment of slaves — while professing fervent Christianity.

Some slave owners, of course, believed slavery must exist, for without it, the American economy would suffer. Douglass refutes this myth. In the North he has observed many more examples of wealth than he saw in the South. Moreover, workers seem happier laboring for their own benefit. In addition, machines are more efficient and have replaced some slave labor. Finally, Phillips (in his introduction to the Narrative) points to the emancipation of slaves in the British colonies as being positive proof that the institution of slavery is unnecessary. The British economy did not collapse when slavery was abolished on West Indian plantations.

Another myth held by Southerners was that Africans were intellectually inferior and deserved, or even needed, the white man's care. It was, as British writer Rudyard Kipling describes, "the white man's burden" to colonize, civilize, and Christianize non-Europeans. Some whites believed that slavery was a means of protecting and bringing Africans into the civilized era. But, as Douglass points out, slavery provides no such benefits. The very text itself is a testimony against the belief of black intellectual inferiority. In the preface, Garrison argues that any person, regardless of race, would lose "all reasoning power" if kept under slavery.

Finally, many Southerners had a romantic image of the institution of slavery, believing it to be an integral part of gracious, genteel Southern living. This image of the Old South exists up to the present day — fortified by such cultural icons as Gone with the Wind. In fact, however, as Douglass points out, many slave owners were far from rich and grand — many lived in modest conditions and were crass and mean. The reality of the grand and gracious South was far from the mythical images of gentility and noblesse oblige of Southern living. This romantic image myth about the South includes a belief that the slaves were happy being slaves. Douglass rebukes this image; slaves never sing because they are happy — they sing because they are sad.

Douglass condemns both whites and blacks who buy into this fraudulent mythology. He is aware that even blacks can be fooled into accepting these myths about their position in Southern culture. Douglass is particularly incensed and sad about the vast disunity among slaves. He mentions slaves fighting among themselves to determme whose owner is kinder. While there is considerable natural fellowship among slaves, he says, the system promotes disloyalty among slaves. Owners encourage slaves to betray other slaves; a traitor double-crosses Douglass and prevents his first escape attempt. Some slaves cast their lot with slave owners and not with fellow slaves in the false belief that their prospects were better as slaves.

Slave owners encouraging slaves to buy into this false belief was one of the most insidious aspects of the mythology of slavery.

“I once passed a colored woman at work on a plantation, who was singing, apparently, with animation, and whose general manners would have led me to set her down as the happiest of the gang. I said to her, “Your work seems pleasant to you.’ She replied, ‘No, massa.’

Supposing she referred to something particularly disagreeable in her immediate occupation, I said to her, ‘Tell me then what part of your work is most pleasant.’

She answered with much emphasis, ‘No part pleasant. We forced to do it.’”

The celebrated Dr. Rush, of Philadelphia, in one of his published medical papers, entitled “An account of the diseases peculiar to the negroes in the West Indies, and which are produced by their slavery,” says:

“We are told by their masters that they are the happiest people in the world, because they are ‘merry.’ – Mirth and a heavy heart, I believe, often meet together, and hence the propriety of Solomon’s observation, ‘In the midst of laughter the heart is sad.’ Instead of considering the songs and dances as marks of their happiness, I have long considered them as physical symptoms of melancholy, and as certain proofs of their misery.”

- Am. Museum, vol. 4. p. 81.

Finally, if slaves were contented and happy, that fact alone should be the everlasting condemnation of slavery, and hunt the monster from human society with curses on its head. What! does it so paralyze the soul, subvert its instincts, blot out its reason, crush its upward tendings, and murder its higher nature, that a man can become “contented and happy,” though robbed of his body, mind, free choice, liberty, time, earnings, and all his rights, and while his life, limbs, health, conscience, food, raiment, sleep, wife and children, have no protection, but are subject every moment to the whims and passion-gusts of an owner, a manstealer?

Nobly was it said by Burke, in reply to a vaunting slaveholder, who boasted that his slaves were “contented and happy“: “If you have made a contented slave, you have made a DEGRADED MAN.’

[Alayne's Shadow.]

“Slavery is evil. Slavers are monsters. End of discussion.” attitude is the reason why I started this thread. Apart from usual derailing that is a must for any controversial Dany thread, I am glad to see the course of the discussion. Thank you all for great posts. :cheers:

As soon as people stopped being hunter-gatherers and discovered agriculture, demand for labor increased rapidly. Since then, slavery has been a fact of life and even today different levels of slavery exist. Actually, it is known that some ant and bee species practice slavery too.

With such a historical and natural phenomenon, it is a great mistake to think superficially.

This post takes the cake. Really, have we come to the point of Bees and Ants? Not to mention that, but I think one can find the act of slaving someone else terrible whilst criticizing Dany. And there's nothing natural about it.

[Game Of Thrones]

Normally I waltz into one of these threads rip apart arguments and people abandon the thread and change their arguments to try and find some other way to make freeing slaves evil.

But really this is pretty much the slavery is good and people should practice it and accept it thread to end all threads. I would tear it up but really PW you are doing a far better job of ripping your own argument apart. Bees and ants? Really? At this point I think Martin is going to have to pull you aside personally and explain that slavery is a bad thing to you. Or if you think slavery is so great and as you point out it does still exist in the world feel free to volunteer, you can tell the ants and the bees how much you love it.

You haven't been quite good at 'ripping apart arguments'. You've been ranting. Quite a good rant, but still, a rant.

[Mithras]

I read my post again and failed to see where I praised slavery but since so many people thought that way, the fault is mine. Sorry for that.

I wanted to emphasize that there are a wide variety of slavery practices including some ant species, so we cannot take one type of slavery and generalize it.

My point is that we are supposed to think about the conditions that are leading to any kind of slavery. As we know from RL experience, making slavery illegal does not solve the problem. It only goes underground and/or takes other legal forms.

There is a saying in my native language. It is better to drain the swamp instead of killing the flies (which are trouble) one by one.

Therefore, we need to deconstruct slavery and take action to eliminate its basis.

[Game Of Thrones]

Just a little bit on Frederick Douglass

Classical straw man. The nineteenth-century model of slavery was anachronistic for the 19th century, as immigrants could do cheap labor instead without the various ill effects of having slaves. The Roman model, which is the basis of Ghiscari slavery, is not anachronistic to the state of development in SB.

Slavery will disappear with social development, not because a foreign invader says so.

[Game Of Thrones]

PW, more belligerent ants have slaves. Most do not.

[Ser Creighton]

Classical straw man. The nineteenth-century model of slavery was anachronistic for the 19th century, as immigrants could do cheap labor instead without the various ill effects of having slaves. The Roman model, which is the basis of Ghiscari slavery, is not anachronistic to the state of development in SB.

Slavery will disappear with social development, not because a foreign invader says so.

Abraham Lincoln - (1809 - 1865) 16th President of the United States

"Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."

2. Frederick Douglas - (1818 - 1895) Former Slave, Abolitionist Leader

"They would not call it slavery, but some other name. Slavery has been fruitful in giving herself names ... and it will call itself by yet another name; and you and I and all of us had better wait and see what new form this old monster will assume, in what new skin this old snake will come forth."

"No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck."

Model of slavery? Is that a joke? There is no model there is slavery.

Now I am not the person who decided to make a direct parallel to slaves and insects, and I am not one of the same group of people who week in and week out looks for a loophole in slavery to justify it.

Ranting?

William Wilberforce - (1759 - 1833) British Politician, Abolitionist

“If to be feelingly alive to the sufferings of my fellow-creatures is to be a fanatic, I am one of the most incurable fanatics ever permitted to be at large.”

Have you decided that their is some good form of slavery? That some magical happy model exist that you came up with in your mind? How about you back up the talk and waltz over to the NAACPP site and explain to them the good model of slavery. I am sure they would find it interesting in fact why don't you post your research on the matter right here, I am very interested in what other slaver myth will be perpetuated.

Mary Angelou - (1928 - ) Poet, Author, Civil Rights Activist

"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again."

Booker T. Washington - (1856 - 1915) Emancipated Slave, Education Reformer

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else."

"There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up. "

Do you have any idea how offensive it is to watch people search for a slavery loophole?

“So enormous, so dreadful, so irremediable did the Trade's wickedness appear that my own mind was completely made up for Abolition. Let the consequences be what they would, I from this time determined that I would never rest until I had effected its abolition.” - William Wilberforce

Oh that slavery doesn't count no it's Slavery in antiquity, it was so different all the slaves were happy then. Funny though I know in Athens they had laws forbiding the striking of slaves yet that law does not exist in the books. No mention of slaves being able to purchase their freedom.

Most philosophers of classical antiquity defended slavery as a natural and necessary institution Aristotle believed that the practice of any manual or banausic job should disqualify the practitioner from citizenship. Quoting Euripides, Aristotle declared all non-Greeks slaves by birth, fit for nothing but obedience.

Fit for nothing but obedience oh that's nice.

By the late 4th century BCE passages start to appear from other Greeks, especially in Athens, which opposed slavery and suggested that every person living in a city-state had the right to freedom subject to no one, except only to laws decided using majoritarianism. Alcidamas, for example, said: "God has set everyone free. No one is made a slave by nature."

Oh well even the greeks started to get it, slavery not good.

Now Rome allowed free slaves to become citizens, funny I don't recall that in the books, I thought this was the Roman model? But the slaves were happy well except for things like the Servile Wars, those three famous slave revolts. You know like Spartacus, now what happened at the end of that revolt? With happy slave Spartacus oh yeah he died and the 6000 survivors of his army were crucified.

The Helots also had a history of rebelling, Every autumn, according to Plutarch (Life of Lycurgus, 28, 3–7), the Spartan ephors would pro forma declare war on the helot population so that any Spartan citizen could kill a helot without fear of blood or guilt in order to keep them in line(crypteia).

Oh what great masters, sure sounds like fun being killed.

Yes the happy slave from some different model that just involved that different kind of slavery were a person was enslaved. I am not sure what slavery models you are familiar with but news flash, they all suck.

Please educate me on the good slave model and the happy slaves. Oh those slaves don't count, you know along with the happy slave myth, that's a rather typical pro slaver argument, slaves don't count. Well not those slaves, and hey they are also insects as well.

Do you wanna go another round? I'll be back in the morning. Go ahead post, make my day.